General Discussion

Martin Eden

(15,666 posts)

156. You make a bunch of incorrect assumptions and flunk Logic 101

Mon Feb 23, 2015, 02:27 PM

Feb 2015

A ludicrous twisting of logic is required to think that opposition to those who voted for and supported invading Iraq equates to favoring the Republicans who were almost unanimous in their support for the war. On the contrary, it equates to favoring Democrats who did not fail the most critically important test of judgment and leadership they ever faced while in Congress.

Again, you simply make no sense whatsoever.

It's a total non-sequitur to assert that someone who doesn't want Hillary Clinton to be the Democratic nominee for president is not interested in good policy and doen't care about the environment, gay rights, etc. We are not limited at this time to a choice between Hillary Clinton or a Republican. Last time I checked, the primary is next year.

Nance Greggs posted the DO NOT BE FOOLED!!! thread to ridicule nonsensical arguments against Hillary. After reading your posts here, I think a thread is needed to ridicule the nonsensical arguments defending her.

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"Oh, the Iraq war. Are you still stuck on that topic?" [View all] MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 OP

but if we ignore history guillaumeb Feb 2015 #1

I thought WHY they hate us was made clear last time time around. Beartracks Feb 2015 #28

They don't have to hate us any more then. n/t sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #202

That was my thought. (nt) malokvale77 Feb 2015 #216

Bravo! marym625 Feb 2015 #2

Thx for saying what needs to be said. The families of those killed are definitely still stuck on it LittleBlue Feb 2015 #3

and will be for generations mahina Feb 2015 #71

Depends how you look at it. bootsontheground Feb 2015 #4

Welcome to DU el_bryanto Feb 2015 #6

Hillary approved of the invasion = VERY BAD, SHOWING EXTREMELY POOR JUDGMENT, IN FACT, IT'S A DEAL BREAKER. InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #27

To The Third Way - DLCers - War Is A Profit Making Opportunity - Corporations Must Be Served cantbeserious Feb 2015 #57

Yep. DLC, Third Way, Progressive Policy Institute, New Labels, etc. merrily Feb 2015 #83

They are exactly the same as republicans and other right wingers in that respect. nt Zorra Feb 2015 #211

Ted Kennedy didn't think it was poor judgement, even though he had voted against the IWR. pnwmom Feb 2015 #174

Shhh... Dr Hobbitstein Feb 2015 #177

Good God!! Were you fooled also?? pocoloco Feb 2015 #183

So why did *most* Democrats vote *against* war? MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #190

*Most* Democratic Senators voted *FOR* the IWR, pnwmom Feb 2015 #203

Including Representatives, a majority voted *against* it. MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #204

That's funny, because RoccoR5955 Feb 2015 #215

She could have taken a cue from Ted Kennedy, no? (nt) malokvale77 Feb 2015 #217

As far as... onyourleft Feb 2015 #39

Bush didn't "approve" the invasion. He (and his team) concocted it, lied and fabricated evidence to DanTex Feb 2015 #75

And that is a HUGE difference nt duhneece Feb 2015 #99

That's a legitimate and important distinction Martin Eden Feb 2015 #131

So personal vengeance against Hillary is more important than preventing another IWR. Hmm. DanTex Feb 2015 #132

That makes no sense whatsoever Martin Eden Feb 2015 #134

You said Hillary "deserves to be voted out of office". DanTex Feb 2015 #136

You make a bunch of incorrect assumptions and flunk Logic 101 Martin Eden Feb 2015 #156

The primary is a different thing. Knock yourself out. DanTex Feb 2015 #157

I will vote for the Democratic nominee ... Martin Eden Feb 2015 #159

The Democrats have the same blood on their hands! pocoloco Feb 2015 #184

Most of the Democratic Senators would be voted out of office then because pnwmom Feb 2015 #180

Most of the D Senators (21 of 50) and nearly ALL of the Rep Senators (48 of 49) ... Martin Eden Feb 2015 #181

'the IWR vote was the biggest test of judgement and leadership any of them ever faced as members of sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #186

"And would most likely fail it again" Martin Eden Feb 2015 #195

Exactly! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #199

If her vote wouldn't have stopped it, that makes her "yes" even worse. jeff47 Feb 2015 #151

Of course not. If the consequences of a "yes" vote were nothing, that means that the yes vote was DanTex Feb 2015 #154

The consequences of a "no" vote were also nothing. jeff47 Feb 2015 #158

That makes it, like I said, "inconsequential". DanTex Feb 2015 #160

Let's put that logic to the test: Martin Eden Feb 2015 #163

I would have a problem with it, but I would have a much bigger problem with the Republicans who DanTex Feb 2015 #166

"they are both the same" argument Martin Eden Feb 2015 #167

Then we have no disagreement. DanTex Feb 2015 #168

Where has Hillary apologized for that vote, bvar22 Feb 2015 #185

For example: DanTex Feb 2015 #187

Looks like she has learned from the failed 2008 campaign, bvar22 Feb 2015 #188

Pure and simple... malokvale77 Feb 2015 #219

Welcome to DU. Double standards are an issue with some, but not all, DUers. merrily Feb 2015 #77

Anyone who approved of it = BAD! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #78

Needs more italics. n/t QC Feb 2015 #5

+1 LondonReign2 Feb 2015 #8

And a bit of faux folksy (fauxlksy?) never hurts, QC Feb 2015 #46

There is derivative, strained, hackneyed attempts at satire and then there is Manny's satire. Autumn Feb 2015 #169

Agree completely LondonReign2 Feb 2015 #170

Agree completely. I have never seen or met a funny conservative, or one that has a sense of humor. Autumn Feb 2015 #171

You just don't get the brilliant wordsmithyness of it all! (n/t) WorseBeforeBetter Feb 2015 #51

Sorry, I'm only licensed as a "C-List" writer MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #59

The real trick is in the quotation marks... malokvale77 Feb 2015 #220

:) MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #228

This message was self-deleted by its author AtomicKitten Feb 2015 #7

You can vote however you please. hrmjustin Feb 2015 #9

"You can vote feel however you please." malokvale77 Feb 2015 #221

Lol one of my many typos. hrmjustin Feb 2015 #222

LOL malokvale77 Feb 2015 #224

That you can vote however you like. hrmjustin Feb 2015 #225

Thanks for the clarification. (nt) malokvale77 Feb 2015 #226

YW and thanks for catching my typo. n/t. hrmjustin Feb 2015 #227

We fucked up the Middle East to an extreme degree and the world will be neverforget Feb 2015 #10

You mean decades, if not centuries. Epic fail and, yes, sorry to say, Hillary bears some of that responsibility. InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #30

I hope that doesn't mean ... staggerleem Feb 2015 #161

"monumental fuck up, in blood and treasure" malokvale77 Feb 2015 #223

But, voting for it was just a faux pas, a need to look patriotic, a minor "mistake", a deception. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #11

Not "only" a vote. She spoke, advocating for the Iraq War with her fellow Senators. merrily Feb 2015 #79

Yep. Either way, she's unfit for public office. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #82

Yep Thespian2 Feb 2015 #135

+ several million. navarth Feb 2015 #201

Remember when she spoke of nuking Iran during 2008 campaign? Oilwellian Feb 2015 #208

Thanks. I either missed that or forgot. I appreciate the info. merrily Feb 2015 #260

Me, I'm still stuck on what NAFTA did to this area in a city in a Third World Country: NYC_SKP Feb 2015 #12

that's not detroit, though it's labeled as detroit. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #44

It doesn't help that those who paid the highest price were women and children Fumesucker Feb 2015 #13

I think Hillary owes people a reasonable explanation 4 her fatal error in backing her pseudo "brother in law" George Chimpster Bush in the Iraq War. InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #31

You've lost it. Agschmid Feb 2015 #45

A war that never ended. onehandle Feb 2015 #14

It's time to look forward, Bush and Clinton didn't mean any harm when they sold that war. Dragonfli Feb 2015 #15

It saddens me to read that, but your point is well taken... InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #32

This message was self-deleted by its author InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #33

yes, why can't people just get the fuck over it??? it's like they have some kind of mental illness ND-Dem Feb 2015 #47

WE are still stuck in Iraq. Downwinder Feb 2015 #16

So let's make sure the brother of the guy who started it doesn't become president. DanTex Feb 2015 #17

By electing someone who voted for it and tried to talk others into doing the same Fumesucker Feb 2015 #18

Presumably you're for the candidate who voted for Reagan and was a Republican until 96. DanTex Feb 2015 #68

Wow. That's some false equivalency. merrily Feb 2015 #85

No it's not. Two cases of extremely bad judgement. DanTex Feb 2015 #91

Oh, yes it is an enormously false equivalency. Not all cases of bad judgment are in the same merrily Feb 2015 #104

True. Voting for Reagan twice and then Bush after that is such poor judgement that it DanTex Feb 2015 #119

Perhaps that is not the single worst post I've ever read, but it has to be close. merrily Feb 2015 #150

I'll take that as a compliment, since you didn't even try to challenge the content. DanTex Feb 2015 #153

There was no content to challenge. (nt) malokvale77 Feb 2015 #229

Why do you think that because a few people mention Hillary being a Republican EVERYONE sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #95

It's Warren who used to be a Republican. And I know that the Hillary haters don't care about that. DanTex Feb 2015 #118

Hillary does not remain silent on the issues. bvar22 Feb 2015 #261

Well, you see, Bush robbed the store but Hillary only drove the getaway car LondonReign2 Feb 2015 #176

Didn't Clinton vote for it? 840high Feb 2015 #22

The primary has not yet started. merrily Feb 2015 #86

Well, they probably will be. But the point is, a lot of people here have in their minds to DanTex Feb 2015 #92

Again, Hillary not only voted for the Iraq War, but advocated for it in the Senate. merrily Feb 2015 #105

Yes, we all know that. And she admitted it was a mistake. DanTex Feb 2015 #115

Please see Reply 106 and, for that matter, all the replies on this thread. merrily Feb 2015 #117

Is that the one where you explain why punishing Hillary is more important than preventing DanTex Feb 2015 #120

I appreciate your efforts... malokvale77 Feb 2015 #230

Thanks. Very few may be deaf, dumb and blind. I have a different view of the others. merrily Feb 2015 #258

Be glad she didn't make a mistake in the middle of the night with that big red nuke button. L0oniX Feb 2015 #137

Yes I am. Who would you rather next to the nuke button: Hillary or Jeb/Ted Cruz? DanTex Feb 2015 #139

Warren or Sanders. You got a small list there. Is Hillary all you got? Pathetic. L0oniX Feb 2015 #142

That's the list of likely nominees for 2016. DanTex Feb 2015 #143

At least the repukes have a variety while you only have Hillary. Some pathetic choice that is. L0oniX Feb 2015 #145

Some how they don't see that as a problem. malokvale77 Feb 2015 #231

No very logical. But voting for the person that helped Bush sell the war isn't the only option. rhett o rick Feb 2015 #147

Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Feb 2015 #19

Agree 100% joanbarnes Feb 2015 #20

K & R! n/t xocet Feb 2015 #21

Kickety kick kick. Scuba Feb 2015 #23

Cheney's sending you posts now? fadedrose Feb 2015 #24

au contraire! MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #40

Me too MG. littlemissmartypants Feb 2015 #25

The cradle of civilization MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #42

The Iraq War is still going on!!! Initech Feb 2015 #26

No politician should be forgiven for their role in that needless slaughter. Bonobo Feb 2015 #29

Bravo! - nt KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #164

And you did not even mention the money. zeemike Feb 2015 #34

oh FUCK those apologists Skittles Feb 2015 #35

Seriously. Hissyspit Feb 2015 #84

^^^this^^^ L0oniX Feb 2015 #138

YOU WANT I SHOULD KICK SOME LAME WAR APOLOGIST ASS, SKITTLES? Zorra Feb 2015 #218

+1,000,000 countryjake Feb 2015 #232

Only if you tag team with Skittles. (nt) malokvale77 Feb 2015 #234

I'll be stuck on that past my grave. Autumn Feb 2015 #36

I'm stuck on it too hibbing Feb 2015 #37

Why is everybody still upset about it? sadoldgirl Feb 2015 #38

As long as it is over there & we don't see pictures of the innocent dead ...most are fine with it. L0oniX Feb 2015 #140

Thanks Manny. onyourleft Feb 2015 #41

Yes, and never forget Hillary Clinton's Iraq War vote speech: http://youtu.be/DkS9y5t0tR0 InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #129

I'll never forget... countryjake Feb 2015 #233

You get my vote on this. nt kelliekat44 Feb 2015 #43

So will you be voting no in the general if she is the nominee? joshcryer Feb 2015 #48

Who made you the arbiter of intellectual honesty? MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #52

Saying people belong in The Hague. joshcryer Feb 2015 #54

So if Hillary were running against Stalin MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #55

Oh, so it depends upon who she's running against now? joshcryer Feb 2015 #60

Quelle surprise! MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #62

You mentioned Stalin. joshcryer Feb 2015 #65

"I don't know what Stalin or The Hague have to do with anything regarding a vote for Clinton." malokvale77 Feb 2015 #235

By all means, explain. joshcryer Feb 2015 #240

OK? malokvale77 Feb 2015 #247

Yes, that is precisely what they did. joshcryer Feb 2015 #252

Not to mention using the same old 'fear' tactics to 'woo' voters with. Same old same old, sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #165

+1 "Love" demands for a loyalty oath (or a rebel oath). merrily Feb 2015 #87

I just think it's cowardly to hide intent. joshcryer Feb 2015 #182

And you know my intent... how? MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #189

You could give a straight answer. joshcryer Feb 2015 #194

I've answered again and again MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #196

Yeah? Care to provide a link? joshcryer Feb 2015 #197

Sure. If you'll bet $100 on whether I can deliver. nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #198

I know you'll be voting for her. joshcryer Feb 2015 #200

Oh, come on! Bet the hundred! MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #205

I'll save it for after the primaries. joshcryer Feb 2015 #207

Do me a solid? MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #209

Hey, you started the OP. joshcryer Feb 2015 #213

Wow. nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #214

Disgusting malokvale77 Feb 2015 #237

Someone who takes a stand. joshcryer Feb 2015 #239

Well... malokvale77 Feb 2015 #244

I stand for Democratic nominees. joshcryer Feb 2015 #245

Principles... malokvale77 Feb 2015 #241

OP is about being principled about voting. joshcryer Feb 2015 #242

The OP has answered that question on numerous occasions, and when MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #246

You've answered that question to me? joshcryer Feb 2015 #249

What? malokvale77 Feb 2015 #248

That's what you're doing apparently. joshcryer Feb 2015 #250

Oh wow malokvale77 Feb 2015 #251

This is pointless. joshcryer Feb 2015 #253

Pointless is the smartest thing you have said... malokvale77 Feb 2015 #254

Oh, sorry, you said "Bring on the jury." joshcryer Feb 2015 #255

Hah malokvale77 Feb 2015 #256

Hey cool. joshcryer Feb 2015 #257

Do you think my posts were nasty? malokvale77 Feb 2015 #259

Authoritarian party purity. Wow. L0oniX Feb 2015 #141

Kind of a sickness isn't it? malokvale77 Feb 2015 #238

Yep, anyone with an ounce of humanity would never try to minimize the many hundreds of thousands of dissentient Feb 2015 #49

Stuck!? No I am not stuck. But you know who is? Rex Feb 2015 #50

Chill. MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #53

Tell it to the families missing their loved one. Look them in the eye and say 'move on'. Rex Feb 2015 #58

Can I do it over Skype? MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #61

Good lord no! And soil your beautiful mind? Have someone else do it! Rex Feb 2015 #63

Brown people abroad-over 100,000 displaced. We didn't even bother to count their dead. merrily Feb 2015 #89

The Pentagon doesn't even keep track of TCN casualties JonLP24 Feb 2015 #102

Point is, it was no small "mistake" and it is an irremediable one. merrily Feb 2015 #106

I agree JonLP24 Feb 2015 #108

Human trafficking is horrific. We'd rather believe that humans are not sold, bought or "owned." merrily Feb 2015 #109

I just came across a UCLA Law Review study that is the most detailed I found JonLP24 Feb 2015 #110

Good grief. The horror that is greed. Good for you for taking this as a cause. merrily Feb 2015 #112

thanks for a really interesting post. tomp Feb 2015 #121

Third-Country National JonLP24 Feb 2015 #124

Not sure where to post this JonLP24 Feb 2015 #125

Priorities, Manny. Maedhros Feb 2015 #56

The Iraq war was incredibly stupid. Yorktown Feb 2015 #64

You mean that each decision happened to dramatically increase money spent MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #66

so it is more important to punish people for that treestar Feb 2015 #67

Do you agree that invading Iraq was a war crime? nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #73

More like stupidity beyond measure Yorktown Feb 2015 #243

They are to blame. Are you seriously calling the deaths of over one million human beings 'that'?? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #76

+ 1 million! catchnrelease Feb 2015 #94

Oh, bullshit. Hissyspit Feb 2015 #81

Yeah that post is neverforget Feb 2015 #93

As soon as Chimpy was selected back in 2000 I knew that Iraq would be invaded. BeanMusical Feb 2015 #98

In early 2003, my boss here in Japan Art_from_Ark Feb 2015 #103

You're 100% right - any one with half a brain, without an agenda, could see through that crap. InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2015 #236

So many voted 'No' because they were afraid of being called cowards by the GOP JonLP24 Feb 2015 #88

OFFS. BeanMusical Feb 2015 #97

Punished? What punishment? Acknowledging poor judgment that has never been corrected TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #101

OFFS obxhead Feb 2015 #192

Did someone on this Liberal forum actually say that?? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #69

Heck, just see post 67. nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2015 #74

Jaw droppingly unbelievable. merrily Feb 2015 #113

You'd think the idiots who thought Bush and Gore were the same would have learned something. DanTex Feb 2015 #70

Yeah lild Feb 2015 #72

1978: "Oh, the Vietnam War. Are you still stuck on that?" Hissyspit Feb 2015 #80

Hell, I'm still stuck on Vietnam Fortinbras Armstrong Feb 2015 #114

I'm still stuck on the Spanish-American war. nt tomp Feb 2015 #122

Don't be sorry for anything you do Manny. DeSwiss Feb 2015 #90

K&R! This post deserves hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Feb 2015 #96

That illegal war that millions of Americans and people around the world tried to stop? deutsey Feb 2015 #100

I'm right there with you w8liftinglady Feb 2015 #107

As a disabled veteran produced by that war, I'm stuck on that topic too n/t Victor_c3 Feb 2015 #111

Oh please, like you've never had an overdue library book. QC Feb 2015 #116

LMFAO L0oniX Feb 2015 #144

Bookman's on it Capt. Obvious Feb 2015 #155

what about voting to fund that occupation? bigtree Feb 2015 #123

That's fucking hilarious Capt. Obvious Feb 2015 #126

I'm actually a fan of anti-Iraq war posts bigtree Feb 2015 #128

Still Stuck on This Massive Tragedy McKim Feb 2015 #127

More on the "real reasons" JonLP24 Feb 2015 #130

You posted some really interesting stuff in this thread but it's getting lost in the bickering Fumesucker Feb 2015 #173

"So, you appear to to be stuck on that old technique of changing the subject" rock Feb 2015 #133

seems to be a running theme marym625 Feb 2015 #146

Don't agree with HRC over AUMF. Will vote for Democratic Party nominee in the general election. cheapdate Feb 2015 #148

And so the status quo will continue, with people telling them 'we don't like war crimes, but we'll sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #193

Be that as it may, I'll be supporting the Democratic Party, warts and all, in the next election. cheapdate Feb 2015 #212

I'm with you, Manny bread_and_roses Feb 2015 #149

She's admitted (recently) that it was a mistake. Why can't you just moveon? merrily Feb 2015 #152

Yes, and I'm also still stuck on Glaisne Feb 2015 #162

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #172

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." malthaussen Feb 2015 #175

Must have been a rabid Clinton supporter. obxhead Feb 2015 #178

As long as you don't say: ''Bush lied America into war,'' you're not Hitler. Octafish Feb 2015 #179

You have to admit it's kind of funny watching people JoeyT Feb 2015 #191

Amen. woo me with science Feb 2015 #206

Okay, I'll bite. NanceGreggs Feb 2015 #210