Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

JonLP24

(29,828 posts)
186. I imagine this thread has likely derailed a long time ago
Tue Feb 24, 2015, 10:39 AM
Feb 2015

Pay attention to the natural resources Eastern Ukraine is sitting on. Ukraine is a very corrupt country, Ukraine is #1 & Russia #2 on the most corrupt European country list. The way government, courts, law enforcement, etc it is begging for corruption. The new President called for "early elections" of Parliament, didn't allow voting in parts of Eastern Ukraine or Crimea (opposition forces were blamed but the timing is suspect). Two early elections were held since 2010 when Parliamentary terms are 5 years. The electoral system was also changed too -- could you imagine if Putin gained power under a similar set of circumstances?

Turnout was lower than past elections in the past 2, 32% turnout in Eastern Ukraine compared to 70% in Eastern Ukraine in 2010.

2014 political map


Political maps all show the same thing in Ukraine. Not only that millions of Ukrainians weren't allowed to vote. The divisions are regional & more complex than pro-west or pro-Russia. Many and I'd imagine an overwhelming majority at this point in Eastern Ukraine want independence. I think it would be the best way to solve this but Kiev wants the natural resources sitting on the East. Miners working in an industry controlled by corruption (like everything else) have swelled the ranks of rebel sources. It really isn't about "the west" or Russia for that matter -- regional political divisions (which have existed since the Ukraine 1991-present) & geography.

Anybody who visits extreme eastern and western Ukraine ... inevitably feels the profound differences between the two regions, as if in reality they belonged to two different countries, two different worlds, two different civilisations.

Mykola Riabchuk, Institute of Political and Nationalities Studies, Academy of Sciences, Kiev

http://www.abc.net.au/news/interactives/ukraine-conflict-in-maps/

All this gets lost in Putin rhetoric but claims coming from Ukraine that Russia manufactured all this, lie about it, & blaming Russia for everything -- a referendum is held in Eastern Ukraine. Putin publicly says for it to be delayed or say the referendum should wait for a better time. They go forward with the referendum anyway, the man I saw in the video after questioned about what Putin said, "I don't have a direct line to Putin" and "It's not up to him.". This could be the Vice report on the referendum or it could be someone else, can't remember who exactly that came from -- is propaganda which omits a lot of facts. While US blames Russia for everything, including protestors burned alive by the Right Sector in Odessa, an honest person that genuinely cares about all Ukrainians affected by this would also be telling the Ukrainian right-wing, nationalist politicians to "look in the mirror".

On edit -- even that link I posted -- I can't remember where I saw that article the detailed the regional divisions perfectly -- is misleading propaganda.

If Ukraine agreed to human rights reforms and addressed corruption, Ukraine could have qualified for EU membership.

But in November 2013, Mr Yanukovych abruptly pulled out of the deal and instead accepted a $15 billion bailout from Russia.

--------my text below

They created a 2004 Constitution but it trade deal was held up because he wouldn't release the "oil princess" who the entire West called a political prisoner which she probably was given that the way it is set-up, there are many political prisoners, was a strong advocate for Western capitalist alliances which is why they took up her cause. Russia wasn't fussy with their demands.

--------------------------------------------------------

Wiki

This was about a free trade deal
On 21 November 2013 the Verkhovna Rada failed to pass any of the six motions on allowing former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko to receive medical treatment abroad, which was an EU demand for signing the association agreement.[68][69] The same week Tymoshenko had stated that she was ready to ask the EU to drop the demand for her freedom if it meant President Viktor Yanukovych would sign the association agreement.[70] The same day a Ukrainian government decree suspended preparations for signing of association agreement; instead it proposed the creation of a three-way trade commission between Ukraine, the European Union and Russia that would resolve trade issues between the sides.[68] Prime Minister Mykola Azarov issued the decree in order to "ensure the national security of Ukraine" and in consideration of the possible ramfications of trade with Russia (and other CIS countries[71]) if the agreement was signed on a 28–29 November summit in Vilnius.[68]

The suspension of the association agreement signature initiated a wave of protests that would ultimately overthrow Viktor Yanukovych and his government.[6]
Relations since suspension of association agreement till fall of Yanukovych

On 2 December 2013 President of the European Commission José Manuel Barroso agreed to meet with a delegation from Ukraine to discuss closer ties with the EU but stated there would be no re-opening of negotiations on the proposed Association Agreement.[72] The same day First Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine Serhiy Arbuzov announced that Ukraine planned to sign a "roadmap" with the EU "I'm not talking about the conditions of the association but about the conditions we planned to resolve before signing and after signing".[73] Ukraine and the EU started "conducting technical preparations for the upcoming dialogue between Ukraine and the EU on certain aspects of the implementation of an Association Agreement" on 5 December 2013.[74] However, on 15 December Fuele said that the Ukrainian government's negotiating position had "no grounds in reality" and that they were suspending further talks.[75]

On 17 December, Ukraine signed a treaty with Russia under which Russia will buy $15 billion of Ukrainian Eurobonds and the cost of Russian natural gas supplied to Ukraine will be reduced,[76][77] though Putin stated that "today we have not discussed the issue of Ukraine joining the Customs Union [of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia] at all".[78][nb 5] Three days later, high ranking EU-officials stated that the EU is still ready to sign the Association Agreement "as soon as Ukraine is ready for it", that the agreement was also beneficial for Russia and that the EU "is totally not concerned about the fact that Ukraine is signing agreements with Russia".[80][81][82][83][84] On 23 December 2013 Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov stated "there is no contradiction" in Ukraine's association with the EU and their observer status in the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union.[85]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union_relations


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Only fascist assholes support Putin's despotic regime. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #1
All bun. No beef. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #2
Russia is a fascist oligarchy, a mafia state where critics of geek tragedy Feb 2015 #3
Your pantry overflows with insult rubbed tripe...impressive. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #6
I do not worry about offending fans of foreign dictators. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #7
The black hat versus the white hat world view is not uncommon. No worries. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #8
Hey if you're cool with fascism and bigotry you are geek tragedy Feb 2015 #9
Well, yes; in the past 24 hours your accusations about me have included: muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #50
what's odd is that Obama and Putin are pretty much enemies at this point nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #66
All you are doing is switching the hats. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #68
This thread advocates a black hat vs white hat world view. Adrahil Feb 2015 #130
Oppressive and homophobic dictators Renew Deal Feb 2015 #17
Shadows of the former Mugabe fan club. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #30
And the Kim's Renew Deal Feb 2015 #37
Really? How do you feel about all of our dictator allies? I despise dictators, like the Saudis, eg, sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #135
Those are different, they are "pragmatic" leaders incrementally working for truth, justice, and the TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #181
I guess the Rubles keep you happy HERVEPA Feb 2015 #26
Indeed they do. Thousands of rubles per post, it is a living! Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #28
With the Russian economy tanking, I hope he's paying you enough. HERVEPA Feb 2015 #43
are you asking us to support Russia's anti-LGBT laws? CreekDog Feb 2015 #62
Putin is a dictator. That's all I need to know about him. DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2015 #24
+1000. Russia under Dictator Putin is a dictatorship and NO Leftists should support BlueCaliDem Feb 2015 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #25
That's about it. Daemonaquila Feb 2015 #32
where is this 'decent, progressive society' you speak of? ND-Dem Feb 2015 #48
Hi! Points to Dem. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #49
didn't answer the question. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #51
LOL, that rings a Bell! FSogol Feb 2015 #69
Maybe you could post some pics of smiling Russians? nt msanthrope Feb 2015 #52
also didn't answer the question. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #53
Answer your questions? I'll pass. nt msanthrope Feb 2015 #58
Pyongyang. I thought you knew that? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #59
Just like Baltimore. nt geek tragedy Feb 2015 #64
Hey. Baltimore's got a great mayor. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #70
There's a history behind Baltimore geek tragedy Feb 2015 #73
yeah, and what does Stringer Bell have to say about that ... kwassa Feb 2015 #125
Correction... zappaman Feb 2015 #72
Russia does not want support from LGBT people, if they did they would not oppress our Russian Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #4
LGBT issues are just barely "tolerated" here.. got a Looooong, long way to go before there is actual 2banon Feb 2015 #109
Oh, what a bunch of horseshit. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #131
What exactly reads like "horseshit" to you? 2banon Feb 2015 #145
Alright, point by point. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #147
Excellent post. zappaman Feb 2015 #150
Devastating! Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #171
Some stats - which show USA is much better, and getting better, and Russia is getting worse muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #155
Don't tell the far-right in Europe. They totally support Russia and don't consider it 'liberal'. pampango Feb 2015 #5
Russian cash will allow Marine Le Pen’s Front National to take advantage of rivals’ woes.... Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #18
Also the far right here in the USA FLPanhandle Feb 2015 #36
Not true Cayenne Feb 2015 #90
Many half-witted idiots wish everyone would support the expansionist dreams of New Russia LanternWaste Feb 2015 #10
Oh of course! HappyMe Feb 2015 #13
A citizen of a country with 800+ military bases around the world calls another-- eridani Feb 2015 #31
It wasn't Russia back then. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #33
First of all, that the US is an expansionist and imperialist power NuclearDem Feb 2015 #35
O.M.G. Talk about giant heaps of "horsehit" (to use YOUR term)...LOL! 2banon Feb 2015 #146
Did you ever take a logic course in high school or college? NuclearDem Feb 2015 #148
To Wrap This Up. The TWISTED LOGIC employed in the context of East-West Imperialistic powers 2banon Feb 2015 #156
You must have me confused with somebody else. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #158
"Russia is actually contractionist" bobclark86 Feb 2015 #63
Evidence of plans to recolonize Poland, East Germany, etc? eridani Feb 2015 #138
Baby steps. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #149
How about Georgia and UKRAINE?!?! n/t bobclark86 Feb 2015 #153
If only that contractionism applied to Ukraine. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #71
so, so far in 10-20 years the mighty expansionist Russkies have managed to grab Crimea MisterP Feb 2015 #170
Yes, of course Crimea was "by the vote of the people" Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #178
The discussions of Crimea which conveniently fail to mention the mass deportation of the indigenous Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #225
Well, I'm not a Leftist, but I AM a Liberal and I DO believe in democracy... BlueCaliDem Feb 2015 #12
Oh, fuck off Draitser. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #14
The reactions in this thread give me hope BainsBane Feb 2015 #203
It's like the Tea Party. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #206
Anybody who defends leftynyc Feb 2015 #15
ROFL, looked up "Eric Draitser", what a piece snooper2 Feb 2015 #16
Post removed Post removed Feb 2015 #19
The humiliating defeat of the Candyman at DeBaltsevo has showed the KingCharlemagne Feb 2015 #23
There are still a thousand or so left behind hiding in the town...the rebels have shown mercy while the Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #27
I don't understand why your post above was hidden. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2015 #168
Wow. That's some industrial grade horseshit right there. Throd Feb 2015 #20
I don't understand it either... Dr Hobbitstein Feb 2015 #21
Authoritarians. Same crowd that insists that Assad's regime was framed on chemical weapons, geek tragedy Feb 2015 #22
"Authoritarians"? I'm so confused by DU. Hekate Feb 2015 #161
Projection. Those who support/serve as apologists for Putink Gaddhafi, Assad, Maduro, etc geek tragedy Feb 2015 #173
There is a difference between "Leftists" and Liberal. William769 Feb 2015 #29
Very true communists in the former USSR were not liberals. Rex Feb 2015 #34
"leftists" in my book are just like communists. William769 Feb 2015 #39
Me either, they proved that an agrarian based society with a centralized government won't work. Rex Feb 2015 #40
Agreed on all counts. William769 Feb 2015 #41
The author of the OP is using the term "Leftist" simply as "Anti-Establishment" Maedhros Feb 2015 #55
Yup. Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #140
The only thing lefties should be doing, is denouncing Russia as a backwards state. Rex Feb 2015 #38
Seeing Russia as capatilist and revanchist isn't an "ideological posture." cemaphonic Feb 2015 #42
The Putin boot-lickers are a fucking disgrace to DU...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #44
Agreed. eom MohRokTah Feb 2015 #47
True. They are worse than the chemtrail nonsense. FSogol Feb 2015 #93
+1 joshcryer Feb 2015 #136
A point. A definite point. nt Hekate Feb 2015 #162
3 Reasons Why Leftists Should Attack Russia | New KamaAina Outlook KamaAina Feb 2015 #45
DUzy! nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #75
Yeah, it is. Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #139
I'm getting to the point of wanting to hit something. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #152
I know the feeling! Behind the Aegis Feb 2015 #172
Most of those would also fit ISIS. ileus Feb 2015 #46
Why this leftist refuses.: Russia's Anti-Gay Law, Spelled Out in Plain English Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #54
Russia's anti-women laws. Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #57
So, MattSh - what is your motivation for posting this OP? Maedhros Feb 2015 #56
Putin apology, plain and simple. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #76
Oh, so I need a motivation now? MattSh Feb 2015 #77
Ah. Now I understand. Maedhros Feb 2015 #83
Don't go away mad... just go away you mean? MattSh Feb 2015 #87
That would suit many of us. Ethnonationalism is frowned upon here. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #100
Contrary to what you've might been told, the purpose of DU isn't to shit all over the USA. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #85
"the purpose of DU isn't to shit all over the USA." Number23 Feb 2015 #106
Thank you Hekate Feb 2015 #164
Thank you Hekate Feb 2015 #163
Piss poor social programs in the US does not constitute suppression of rights. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #94
Thank you Hekate Feb 2015 #165
Wow. That's a doozy. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #60
You'd be surprised how many folks on this planet share this view malaise Feb 2015 #61
The world has another superpower, it's called China. Russia as currently constituted has no geek tragedy Feb 2015 #65
Being contrarian can only get you so far. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #67
The world doesn't need any superpowers. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #96
No thanks. I'm good with not doing that. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Feb 2015 #74
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #78
The Cold War is over, buddy. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #79
Maybe he was rooting for team USSR back in the day. Throd Feb 2015 #80
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #86
This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Feb 2015 #84
If he's not your buddy, then why did you call him "buddy"? zappaman Feb 2015 #124
The Putin boot-lickers speak with just1voice... SidDithers Feb 2015 #82
What a website - a Russian self-proclaimed partner of the far right anti-semitic 'Veterans Today' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #81
I'm proud of being a DUer when I see how few are taken in by this garbage. stevenleser Feb 2015 #88
Much like the Tea Party, Putin apology is a noisy fringe minority here at DU. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #91
I love the section about "Defending Historical Memory" Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #89
And the implication that building economic and diplomatic ties to Ukraine (and elsewhere in E Europe cemaphonic Feb 2015 #92
It reminds of how right wingers used to shit all over France NuclearDem Feb 2015 #95
FDR was in an alliance w Stalin because - pragmatism arendt Feb 2015 #97
Ho boy. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #99
I never said defend Russia, I said let them do our work. arendt Feb 2015 #104
"I think the Ukrainians are Nazis funded by US neocon Nazis." Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #114
See Right Sector. See Bandera. See Ukr govt. arendt Feb 2015 #115
Psst. Right Sector isn't part of the Ukrainian government. Never was, actually. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #116
So the Russian-speakers in Novorussia, how do they fit... arendt Feb 2015 #120
Not sure what your ultimate argument/endgame is here. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #174
Do you not read what I write? arendt Feb 2015 #179
Funny thing. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #187
It's easy to be consistent when you're telling the truth arendt Feb 2015 #192
This message was self-deleted by its author arendt Feb 2015 #197
Self-delete is your friend. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #204
Yes. What happened with Maidan was not a coup, period. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #198
The CIA has been running coups since 1953 arendt Feb 2015 #214
If you have actual evidence that what happened in Ukraine was a coup, bring it. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #216
I will leave the last 10,000 words to you. arendt Feb 2015 #217
So in short, your answer is no. No, you don't have any evidence to support.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #218
Here's some IMF "evidence". Its the looting, stupid. arendt Feb 2015 #222
You get points for creativity, but that's about it. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2015 #223
This message was self-deleted by its author arendt Feb 2015 #196
So, again... NuclearDem Feb 2015 #118
Right. It's all so simple. Not. arendt Feb 2015 #119
Wow, glad to see your true colors finally fly. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #121
NO. I have priorities. Stopping neocons is #1. arendt Feb 2015 #122
Yeah, because you can't work to fix both anti-LGBT discrimination NuclearDem Feb 2015 #123
If the way to fix it is to start WW3 w Russia, count me out n/t arendt Feb 2015 #128
Oh for...this is getting old. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #133
Yeah, this idea that defending Putin is bravely standing up for peace cemaphonic Feb 2015 #134
Yeah, who gives a fuck about LGBTs in the Ukraine anyway? zappaman Feb 2015 #126
yeah, who gives a shit about neocon warmongers burning our taxes. arendt Feb 2015 #127
This post boils down to (1) Russia's government is awesome; and (2) the USA is inherently evil. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #101
Absolute bullshit plus name-calling arendt Feb 2015 #102
You're the one endorsing an article that calls for leftists to line up against their own country and geek tragedy Feb 2015 #107
Does anyone remember history? Putin is a spy and a gangster, not a Nazi. arendt Feb 2015 #108
No one is advocating war with Russia. But this article is stating leftists should 'support' Putin. geek tragedy Feb 2015 #110
I never said support him. I just said let it alone. arendt Feb 2015 #112
Well, you did "like" the OP.... Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #177
Its a long post that contains SOME good ideas. arendt Feb 2015 #180
Exactly how have I taken the "Curtis LeMay position"? Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #182
To quote you, what is your endgame here? arendt Feb 2015 #193
All I've ever done is demand that facts be presented, and not unsupported conspiracy theories. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #200
Dang. Replied to myself. This is to alert you to look. n/t arendt Feb 2015 #194
This message was self-deleted by its author arendt Feb 2015 #195
It is dishonest of you to characterize a rejection of the OP's call for supporting Russia as a call Bluenorthwest Feb 2015 #111
Looks like "sarcasm" has gone the way of "nuance" arendt Feb 2015 #113
So you post bullshit and when called on it you get snarky. How impressive. Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #224
L-O-Fuckin'-L...That blogger must have nothing but rainbows and unicorns in his world Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #98
So Putin could USE us to steal ANOTHER 100billion from Russia? blm Feb 2015 #103
Fuck that, to put it politely. Quantess Feb 2015 #105
The only group that should defend Russia is the Westboro Baptist Church! NutmegYankee Feb 2015 #117
Oh for fuck's sake.... Adrahil Feb 2015 #129
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #132
Freedom Fries! nt CJCRANE Feb 2015 #141
Looks like the "hate Russia" propaganda is full tilt Ramses Feb 2015 #137
"Leftists"* shouldn't defend Putin or the war profiteers. CJCRANE Feb 2015 #142
This thread showcases why some 'leftists' are fucking awful hypocrites. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #143
Also, these pro-Putin assholes aren't on the first flight to Russia to live in that paradise. Drunken Irishman Feb 2015 #144
I almost agree NuclearDem Feb 2015 #151
This message was self-deleted by its author CJCRANE Feb 2015 #157
Really. damn the hypocrisy.. thanks for pointing that out, DI. Not purists when it comes to human Cha Feb 2015 #184
I'm with the majority of Europeans Depaysement Feb 2015 #154
I think it's obvious that Russia is supporting the Rebels. Savannahmann Feb 2015 #159
Homophobic laws. Anti-Semitism. Mysogyny. Prison for Pussy Riot. Expansionism. Hekate Feb 2015 #160
Reading the full article, the only real reason presented to "support Russia" salib Feb 2015 #166
....is this supposed to be a joke? Warren DeMontague Feb 2015 #167
Sadly, a few people here don't see it as a joke. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #175
The Putin apologists have been all over this site for some time now BainsBane Feb 2015 #205
LOL. If Russia under Putin is anti-imperialist, then Adolf Hitler is a champion of religious freedom Downtown Hound Feb 2015 #169
Translation: You MUST support Russia because you cannot possibly side with the US "empire". DetlefK Feb 2015 #176
" " " " n/t MBS Feb 2015 #183
I see no reason to SUPPORT a bigoted, authoritarian, gangster capitalist government TheKentuckian Feb 2015 #185
I imagine this thread has likely derailed a long time ago JonLP24 Feb 2015 #186
Turnout in the past two elections was lower in the East for a pretty glaring reason. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #188
I hate when my browser crashes during a post JonLP24 Feb 2015 #189
There was no way around the issue, though. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #190
They initiated the whole fleeing the country thing JonLP24 Feb 2015 #191
Continuation of discussion in locked thread BainsBane Feb 2015 #199
The OP's current state of residence clearly has zero influence over his opinion of his neighbors. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #201
He cited it to validate his views BainsBane Feb 2015 #202
Ethnonationalism is really its own ideology. The Putin loyalists are not left or right, just geek tragedy Feb 2015 #207
There's some Orwellian doublespeak if I ever heard it. PoliticalPothead Feb 2015 #208
When has Russia hinted about it's desire to annex the Ukraine? BainsBane Feb 2015 #209
More propaganda. PoliticalPothead Feb 2015 #210
What did the article say? BainsBane Feb 2015 #213
Buddy. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #211
Not to mention the fact the UN has procedures for independence votes BainsBane Feb 2015 #215
Leftists are not fascist bigots, so it just boggles the mind why a leftist would defend William769 Feb 2015 #212
I suppose this post is marginally better Codeine Feb 2015 #219
Come on, you know he wouldn't do tha--oh yeah, he did. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #221
Don't fret. Putin has support from the far right BainsBane Feb 2015 #220
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»5 Reasons Why Leftists Sh...»Reply #186