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tblue37

(68,420 posts)

105. Religion is a tribal marker for most humans. In urban gang territories, wearing a color

Thu Feb 26, 2015, 01:33 PM

Feb 2015

or a symbol associated with a rival gang can get you into big trouble, even if you are just an ignorant and unaffiliated person. Back in the 1990s one of my students--a scholarship player on our football team--got into trouble in California while visiting relatives because he wore his KU T-shirt (red and blue) in a territory claimed by one of the gangs--I don't 100% remember which one, but I believe it was the Crips. He would have gotten into trouble even if he had been in the other gang's territory, because red and blue were the rival colors, and his shirt had both colors on it.

He was just shooting baskets at the park when a couple of guys approached him aggressively and demanded to know why he was wearing that shirt. He apologized and did a lot of very submissive explaining and sucking up (which, I assure you, was not his normal way of interacting with anyone!), so the guys let him go with a warning to ditch that shirt and to stay out of their territory in the future.

A lot of the people on any side of a "religious" conflict are not necessarily as religious as they claim to be. Their religion is mainly just a cultural marker that identifies which side they are on. The IRS were "Catholic" primarily in the sense that they identified being Irish with being Catholic, and being Protestant with being part of the oppressor/enemy group. The reverse was true on the Protestant side.

I don't doubt that many of the people on either side did consider themselves to be Catholic or Protestant, and some might even have been devout in their religious observance and commitment. But I am pretty sure that for most, religious affiliation was a tribal marker more than it was a deeply felt religious commitment. Of course, as long as that particular marker is associated with notions about God and good and evil, it provides a lot of warm feelings and the conviction that one is on the side of the angels, even if one is not really all that devout or observant.

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History question - Did we call the Irish Republican Army "Roman Catholic Terrorists"? [View all] jberryhill Feb 2015 OP

Ask Peter King (R-NY) YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #1

Not nearly loud enough. JHB Feb 2015 #17

I'm pretty sure the British did. n/t nichomachus Feb 2015 #2

they called them terrorists, yes. but not so much religious terrorists. unblock Feb 2015 #9

Oh, no. It was all about religion. nichomachus Feb 2015 #11

No, it was not a religious war. Think of the American Revolution and you will better understand what sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #16

What? No mention of the Big Fellow? R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2015 #18

I'll mention Michael Collins as he's a hero to this Irishwoman nt riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #20

To this one,too.... SiobhanClancy Feb 2015 #85

Sorry, I should have mentioned him. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #70

That's a bit simplistic, I think. Adrahil Feb 2015 #92

Whatever the strong religious identification, it wasn't a religious war riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #97

Exactly right. H2O Man Feb 2015 #104

Religion is a tribal marker for most humans. In urban gang territories, wearing a color tblue37 Feb 2015 #105

It was not about religion. truebluegreen Feb 2015 #102

Wrong. They called them Catholic terrorists. pnwmom Mar 2015 #135

The war was frequently spun as a fight between Catholic's and Protestants. FLPanhandle Feb 2015 #3

Empires always call resistance to their occupations 'terrorists'. The Founding Fathers were sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #21

There is a difference between rebels and partisans and "terrorists." Adrahil Feb 2015 #93

What would you call those responsible for Bloody Sunday in NI? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #101

That is a really good point. Drahthaardogs Feb 2015 #126

No. War is terrorism practiced by the strong, truebluegreen Feb 2015 #103

Some did. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #4

No, there was conflict before there were ever KatyMan Feb 2015 #46

Nope. The conflict traces back to the 17th century Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #53

Try the 12th century! n/t Adrahil Feb 2015 #94

No. Buzz Clik Feb 2015 #96

Wrong, the occupation of Ireland began BEFORE Henry V111 formed his own religion, when the Roman sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #144

No. We were NOT tracing the first conflict, but the first conflict related to IRA. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #148

No, we were attempting to correct the rewriting, mostly by the Bush Sr and Thatcher sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #151

Whatever. Have fun. I'm done. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #152

My, my, my. The cave dwellers certainly obsess over trivial matters. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #166

So? That doesn't mean there wasn't ever conflict identified with religious factions. n/t pnwmom Mar 2015 #138

because their motives were primarily political and economic unblock Feb 2015 #5

Mass demonization requires mass hypocrisy? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #6

They certainly were by many Irish Protestants leveymg Feb 2015 #7

Irish Americans identified with the Native Irish. Republicans like Bush Sr eg, identified with the sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #23

I'm not sure it breaks down entirely along those lines. leveymg Feb 2015 #25

You're right, it doesn't break down among the ordinary people into 'republicans v democrats' at all. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #27

More a historical battle of the Patricians versus The People leveymg Feb 2015 #29

Yes, I would agree with that ... sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #30

true, but since the wealth did go to people of slightly different ethnicity- more Norman /blonder.. bettyellen Feb 2015 #38

Sounds like Somalia. Everyone is the same race and religion, but clan differences going back 9 leveymg Feb 2015 #48

Yep, spent a month in Belfast and everyone did the back round check, which went on for a bettyellen Feb 2015 #50

Lucky for your brother he was able to get out. Just being a young, 'native irish/catholic' teenager sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #64

you know he only had a decent job at all over there because Kennedy had some bill passed that bettyellen Feb 2015 #82

I would love to see it and will definitely try to find it. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #88

Oh gosh, if I hear that song again, I will have to stick a knife in my ears, LOL�. bettyellen Mar 2015 #163

I did find it on Utube, and plan to watch it as soon as a I get a chance. I will look for the boom sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #177

Sure thing! The filmaker got a ton of grief from the Irish American communty for including bettyellen Mar 2015 #179

I am glad they didn't. I like Republican in the title way more! yeoman6987 Feb 2015 #8

Republican in Ireland, is not the same as Republican here. 'The Republic of Ireland' sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #156

No. Because they really didn't give a shit about whether transubstantiation was real or not. Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #10

Exactly. If the British stayed Catholic KatyMan Feb 2015 #47

Not initially perhaps... Adrahil Feb 2015 #95

It is interesting the long term issues that came since this major Christian sect split JonLP24 Mar 2015 #169

Did we call the British Empire who invaded Ireland, suppressed and impoverished sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #12

Great summary, but the Nationalist were inspired directly by MLK, you will see his framed picture bettyellen Feb 2015 #39

Yes, you are correct. MLK did have a huge influence on the Irish. McAlisky described the sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #128

'Roman' wasn't used much, but 'Catholic', yes muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #13

Lol, I wonder who wrote all of that? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #24

They are all books about politics or terrorism from well known publishers muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #28

I asked about Pearse among others, the 1916 rebels and the equivalent sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #31

You mean they were vicious murderers? Because that's what Adams and co. were mr blur Feb 2015 #33

There would not be peace today without Gerry Adams riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #36

We interviewed his brother Dominick and asked his first interaction with the RUC, he said he was a bettyellen Feb 2015 #40

Thank you, Jerry Adams will join all the other Irish heroes who fought for and eventually gained sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #67

Were the Founding Fathers vicious murderers? The rebels, like the Founding Fathers here, sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #60

So it's not the word 'Catholic' you object to, but 'terrorist', for the Provisional IRA? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #37

It's only a terrorist organization to you Brits. riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #41

So the Provisional IRA killed 510 civilians, but you don't think they were terrorists? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #42

More than a million died in the Potato Famine - a holocaust and attempted genocide riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #45

What makes you think being angry stops someone being a terrorist? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #49

Nope they were waging a war for independence riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #54

I'm seeing it from the perspective of 510 dead civilians in Northern Ireland muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #56

Okay, you two! H2O Man Feb 2015 #57

O Thank You, Fount of All Knowledge and Definitions muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #58

You are welcome! H2O Man Feb 2015 #59

Thanks for this Patrick. riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #76

I notice you haven't mentioned the millions of Irish murders. Not once riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #75

I didn't notice you acknowledging anything about the 'fall-out' for the British muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #79

Try seeing it from the perspective of half the population of Ireland over the course of the Imperial sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #81

Neither Dr. King nor Malcolm X advocated killing civilians, though muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #84

If the imperialist British occupiers of Ireland would simple go back where they came from, Zorra Feb 2015 #87

If there was no British Occupation of Ireland, there would have been no need for the IRA sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #127

Thanks, sabrina1. The British occupation and holocaust of Ireland has been swept under the rug Zorra Mar 2015 #186

They were a terrorist organisation. There's absolutely no dispute when it comes to that... Violet_Crumble Feb 2015 #122

Obviously there's tremendous dispute over whether the IRA is a terrorist organization riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #174

No, not really... Violet_Crumble Mar 2015 #178

Ah well, this discussion is going nowhere fast as expected. riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #180

Excellent points LeftishBrit Mar 2015 #184

What a lie! The British Army and NI loyalists were STILL butchering Irish riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #188

By your definition, then, the French Resistance who fought the Nazis in WWII Zorra Mar 2015 #185

Add George Washington and the Continental Army to that list as well riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #187

I object to the rewriting of history. I have zero objection to either 'Catholic or Portestant' or sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #62

And you've done H2O Man Feb 2015 #73

Thank you H2O Man, coming from you, that means a lot. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #89

This is a curious OP/thread. H2O Man Feb 2015 #91

I completely agree that some people here have no concept of the fact that the sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #111

My older son has H2O Man Feb 2015 #113

I would love to read your sons' book, if you email me the title I would certainly sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #160

Obama's Irish ancestry was celebrated with "No One's as Irish as Barack Obama" eridani Feb 2015 #124

I remember that, it was hilarious! Lol! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #129

Thank you for this post. Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #125

Not unfamiliar......a google search msanthrope Feb 2015 #35

Are you still stalking me on Google and elsewhere? And did you have something you wanted to say to sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #90

Admin has provided a helpful search box up to the right.....powered by google. msanthrope Feb 2015 #107

Seriously?: "Ties between political activists in Black America and Ireland span several centuries" sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #108

The IRA were Excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church. So to claim they sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #114

'Republican' is a good adjective - the 'R' of 'IRA', after all muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #115

And I am explaining to you why you are wrong. Calling the IRA 'catholic terrorists' is ludicrous sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #116

You appear to have just called the British 'heroes' muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #117

I wonder if you, by drawing attention to the original use of the word 'terror' or 'terrorist' sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #118

No, I have not been ignoring those deaths muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #119

I abhor violence of any kind. When countries are invaded, you appear to believe that all the sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #121

It's you calling the violent IRA 'heroes' that means you condone it muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #123

Was Mandela a violent terrorist? The same British Empire called HIM a terrorist also. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #130

Mandela did not target civilians muriel_volestrangler Feb 2015 #131

The IRA did not target civilians. Now you're making it necessary to expose the British Agents who sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #133

Do you think Hamas and Islamic Jihad targetted civilians with suicide bombings? Violet_Crumble Mar 2015 #134

Do you think Imperial Colonialists bombs were indiscriminate? The latest, eg, in Iraq? sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #147

Of course they were. Now can you answer the question I asked? Violet_Crumble Mar 2015 #161

Actually we KNOW for a fact that 'terrorizing civilian populations' in order to 'soften' them sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #162

They targeted civilians. They planted bombs in public places. muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #140

I am saying the OPPOSITE of 'it's okay to target civilians'. Which is what Empires do. See Iraq sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #141

You're saying it was OK for the PIRA to purposely kill over 500 civilians (nt) muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #143

Let's keep playing. You're saying it is okay for the British to ethnically cleanse the Native Irish sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #145

You call the PIRA 'heroes'. You blame those 510 deaths on other people. muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #146

Bombing civilians IS terrorism. You have repeatedly ignored this for some reason. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #149

"Bombing civilians IS terrorism" - then the Provisional IRA are terrorists muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #155

Thanks for agreeing that all the violence in the North of Ireland and all the blood shed sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #157

Past wrongs? Are you seriously unaware of the, putting it very mildly, bigotry, torture, brutality sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #173

Did "we" call the IRA Catholic terrorists? PaddyIrishman Mar 2015 #165

But the point is OTHER people, here and in England, often referred to them as a Catholic terrorist pnwmom Mar 2015 #139

And the answer is, Imperial powers ALWAYS call those who resist their occupations and brutal sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #142

No, but Guy Fawks was. Agnosticsherbet Feb 2015 #14

Because this wasn't a religious war - it was a war for independence from the British riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #15

Thank you, I see you know your history. It was a fight for Independence that was centuries long. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #19

Agreed. Demographically the North will turn Irish just with sheer numbers riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #22

The Bush Sr regime in the US turned the IRA into 'terrorists'. Clinton intervened when he was sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #26

A Nation once again ..... H2O Man Mar 2015 #150

I believe Fenian was used quite a bit which wrapped up catholicism and republicanism in a little bow Bosonic Feb 2015 #32

they weren't "terrorists" H2O Man Feb 2015 #34

Oh? alcibiades_mystery Feb 2015 #66

No. H2O Man Feb 2015 #72

I believe so and everyone knew it was. hrmjustin Feb 2015 #43

For whatever reason, the "Western" world has for a long time drawn more of a distinction..... YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #44

Sinn F�in slams Catholic Church attack on same sex marriages Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #51

For the same reason we didn't call the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan BobbyBoring Feb 2015 #52

Catholicism was not the driving force ... Oktober Feb 2015 #55

Some utterly simplistic Northern Ireland "history" in this thread , complete bollocks much of it.. pkdu Feb 2015 #61

Yes, they were called "Roman Catholic Terrorists" csziggy Feb 2015 #63

I thought they were always called terrorists treestar Feb 2015 #65

Every Irish bar in NYC had a collection box for the IRA, and plenty of churches besides alcibiades_mystery Feb 2015 #68

Bush Sr was the one who tried to turn Americans against the Native Irish People's struggle for sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #71

I'm more interested in whether they were specifically called out as catholic. jberryhill Feb 2015 #78

I see. I don't recall that, as in Ireland treestar Feb 2015 #83

A surprisingly reasonable post JonLP24 Mar 2015 #170

Bush Sr called them terrorists, Clinton reversed Sr's policies towards them. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #98

The Americans probably didn't. The Paisleyites of Northern Ireland certainly did. LeftishBrit Feb 2015 #69

Right, the Paisleyites did, and plenty of people in America as well. pnwmom Mar 2015 #137

IIRC, the IRA were noted as being Catholic, hifiguy Feb 2015 #74

Terrorists and other racial slure ...there are online databases of those HereSince1628 Feb 2015 #77

Yes , at least in Europe. wennad Feb 2015 #80

The IRA is a politically motivated resistance/revolutionary movement dedicated to Zorra Feb 2015 #86

Thanks for the history, Zorra. pnwmom Mar 2015 #158

You're welcome. That's just the tip of the iceberg. nt Zorra Mar 2015 #183

They were a terrorist organisation... Violet_Crumble Mar 2015 #168

The analogy to the I/P conflict is flawed. riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #175

It's a pretty solid analogy Violet_Crumble Mar 2015 #176

Go ahead and find a post where I've said the Palestinians aren't allowed to resist. riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #181

I'll answer it. Zorra Mar 2015 #182

What is and or was the stated purpose? Savannahmann Feb 2015 #99

Good points jberryhill Feb 2015 #100

IS has well financed & a variety of organizations structure JonLP24 Mar 2015 #172

What is being left out JonLP24 Mar 2015 #171

They were not a transnational movement and they didn't declare universal war on every unbeliever. hack89 Feb 2015 #106

My wife and I both have ancestors who got the hell out of Ireland... hunter Feb 2015 #109

Great post malaise Feb 2015 #110

Well done...For your next challenge, ask if Israeli nationalists are "Jewish Terrorists" Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #112

Yes AgingAmerican Feb 2015 #120

We didn't and with a good reason: their goals were political, not religious Wella Feb 2015 #132

No. People usually just called them "Catholic terrorists." pnwmom Mar 2015 #136

NYT: Articles about the Irish Republican Army Zorra Mar 2015 #154

That would include O'Reilly, right? randr Mar 2015 #153

especially Ironic DonCoquixote Mar 2015 #159

Actually we would call the British the terrorists, not the IRA RB TexLa Mar 2015 #164

I come from an Irish Catholic family ProudToBeBlueInRhody Mar 2015 #167

PS: 'Protestant terrorists' was also not infrequently used as a term, though too many did accept the LeftishBrit Mar 2015 #189