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spin

(17,493 posts)
56. Is the fact that JUSTIFIED shooting has increased 25% a terrible thing?
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 04:36 PM
Apr 2012

That statistic merely shows that more people were able to use a firearm for legitimate self defense and were able to escape serious injury or death.

It absolutely amazes me when the media is able to successfully portray incidents where firearms saves lives as evil.


The United States' concept of justifiable homicide in criminal law stands on the dividing line between an excuse, justification and an exculpation. It differs from other forms of homicide in that, due to certain circumstances, the homicide is justified as preventing greater harm to innocents. A homicide can only be justified if there is evidence to suggest that it was reasonable to believe that the offending party posed an imminent threat to the life or wellbeing of another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide


To argue that justifiable homicide is wrong defies reason unless you believe that all self defense is undesirable. Is that what you believe? If so, it appears the media agrees with you. Indeed the pen is mightier than the sword when the media can convince people that legitimate self defense is a bad thing.

I will grant that the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida could have been worded better. The basic concept is valid but obviously the law is somewhat ambiguous and might well allow a person to escape prosecution in some incidents where no witnesses were available and the evidence was inconclusive. However the older law which required a duty to retreat suffered from the same basic problem. Without witnesses and evidence to the contrary, a person could simply claim that he did try to retreat and it would be impossible for the prosecution to prove otherwise. I expect the wording of the law will be reviewed and possibly changed but would it be fair to put a person in prison merely because of a lack of witnesses or evidence to prove that he failed to used legitimate self defense? That would require the jury to assume that he was guilty without evidence and would be totally against our system of justice in which a person is innocent until proven guilty. It is unfortunately a real conundrum.

There is a long history of legal rulings on self defense in our nation.

Self-defense (United States)

Runyan v. State (1877) 57 Ind. 80, 20 Am.Rep. 52, is one of the earliest cases to strongly support and establish in U.S. law an individual's right to initiate self-defense actions up to and including the justifiable use of lethal force against an aggressor.

In Runyan, the court stated "When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justiciable."emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_%28United_States%29


Obviously this ruling not only supported self defense but also "stand your ground".

I, like you, am well aware of what guns can do when misused. Unfortunately I recently experienced a personal loss involving an individual who used a handgun to commit suicide. Alcohol was involved.

Your third link does provide an interesting story with a good lesson.

Florida-style 'Stand Your Ground' gun laws sub impulse for intelligent thinking

***snip***

A large black man, big enough to play linebacker for the Chicago Bears, grabbed me by my coat, and slammed me against a concrete wall.

A Florida-style Stand Your Ground law would have explicitly entitled me to meet force with force without having to retreat first, if I believed it were necessary to prevent death or bodily harm to myself.

Breathing alcohol fumes on me, this huge man asked, “What did you think of my leader?”

“I thought Dr. King was a great man,” I answered. The poor fellow’s eyes welled with tears. He released me and shuffled off weeping.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Walter-Rodgers/2012/0430/Florida-style-Stand-Your-Ground-gun-laws-sub-impulse-for-intelligent-thinking


While it is possible that the "Stand Your Ground" law might have allowed the use of deadly force in this situation it is also possible that the writer would have faced prosecution. Much depends on the actual disparity in size and condition.

In the same situation, I would have attempted to defuse the situation as the writer did. If that failed, I might have used what remains of my martial arts training in jujitsu to attempt to stop his attack. I will not describe the technique I immediately thought of, but it is brutal and effective.

I am 65 years old and considered handicapped as I am a candidate for a hip replacement and also suffer from degenerative disc disease. Legally it would be foolish to attack me in such a manner, but still I would prefer to use non lethal force rather than use the firearm that I carry. I reserve that for situations that lack any other choice.

But if I was younger and in far better shape, a prosecutor in Florida might well decide that merely because I was slammed up against a wall, I had no reason to expect that my health or life was in danger. Much would depend on the difference in size and weight between myself and my attacker. I could point out that it is unwise to start a fight irregardless of the difference between you and your opponent.

I would like mention that despite the skyrocketing number of firearms in our nation and the spread of "shall issue" concealed carry we have actually experienced a decrease in violent crime that is now approaching the levels experienced in the 60s which was a fairly peaceful time. There are many factors to consider in why the violent crime level has dropped so dramatically, but it should be obvious that neither the proliferation of firearms or the passage of concealed carry laws has not caused the violent crime rate to rise.

Crime in the United States

In 2009 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1968, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1964. Overall, the national crime rate was 3466 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 3680 crimes per 100,000 residents forty years earlier in 1969 (-9.4%).


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States












Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

On Zimmy's statement to the court [View all] nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 OP
"Becoming paranoid". The country is awash in pure fear of the 'other'. sinkingfeeling Apr 2012 #1
Yeah I know... nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #2
Get ready for the CCW fans to rip this thread apart Hugabear Apr 2012 #3
Oh I expect it. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #4
No we won't - there are so many examples of spontaneous mass shoot outs in theaters hack89 Apr 2012 #12
which makes it all the more stupid that he got out of his car and followed Trayvon magical thyme Apr 2012 #5
Agreed, I think they opened a few holes nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #13
that's more than culture I think magical thyme Apr 2012 #17
Absolutely nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #19
And he lied when he said he thought Martin was older. HooptieWagon Apr 2012 #27
Zimmerman's side will tell you his gun saved his life. Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #6
And everyone else will tell you Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his damned car Hugabear Apr 2012 #7
No shit Sherlock. Life Long Dem Apr 2012 #8
They can and they do nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #10
I remember that logic...We had to destroy the village to save it. A Simple Game Apr 2012 #20
Fear is an adrenaline high, an addiction. When it cycles down, one needs another fix to feel alive. freshwest Apr 2012 #9
What is funny is that this drug, and yes it is a drug, it is an adrenalin high nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #11
A variation of something I was thinking. 99Forever Apr 2012 #14
Yup, I have heard this nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #15
"An armed society is a polite society." arely staircase Apr 2012 #31
Strange. I have a Concealed Weapons Permit and I don't think that everybody I see is armed. spin Apr 2012 #16
And per schedule HI nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #18
Just curious, since you are an ex-cop. zappaman Apr 2012 #22
We can argue about who is the most paranoid all day ... spin Apr 2012 #24
Neither am I, but I do not live in a state where my chances nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #26
As an ex-cop you should still qualify for one. Codeine Apr 2012 #40
Do me a favor, would you? 99Forever Apr 2012 #21
Since you live in Minnesota and I live in Florida ... spin Apr 2012 #25
Or, as has been recently illustrated, if you are a young... LanternWaste Apr 2012 #28
What you fail to realize is that I am not Zimmerman ... spin Apr 2012 #29
I see... 99Forever Apr 2012 #30
Feel free to visit... AmazingSchnitzel Apr 2012 #32
Welcome to DU. (n/t) spin Apr 2012 #33
Thanks.. AmazingSchnitzel Apr 2012 #38
Reading skills are fundamental ... spin Apr 2012 #35
My "reading skills" are just fine, bud,... 99Forever Apr 2012 #36
Let's look at some facts and statistics ... spin Apr 2012 #37
Facts and statistics... 99Forever Apr 2012 #39
It's the equivalent of admitting you are wrong... AmazingSchnitzel Apr 2012 #41
Exactly. (n/t) spin Apr 2012 #43
That isn't what I said.. 99Forever Apr 2012 #46
Like many who oppose concealed carry ... spin Apr 2012 #42
Human nature being what it is, I actually agree with this. Good point Nadin nt riderinthestorm Apr 2012 #23
How do we protect ourselves from this group of people who are now walking Baitball Blogger Apr 2012 #34
Over 800,000 citizens have concealed weapons permits in Florida ... spin Apr 2012 #44
Who is going to be left alive to define if an attack is provoked? Baitball Blogger Apr 2012 #45
I walk by cameras all the time ... spin Apr 2012 #47
You don't represent everyone who carries, do you spin? Baitball Blogger Apr 2012 #48
Zimmerman hardly represents the majority of people ... spin Apr 2012 #49
Well, we don't know it. Baitball Blogger Apr 2012 #50
Two things on this nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #51
If you you said was true ... spin Apr 2012 #53
Was George Zimmerman's permit pulled off when nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #54
Is the fact that JUSTIFIED shooting has increased 25% a terrible thing? spin Apr 2012 #56
Here is the problem you are having nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #57
There is a legal review in the Zimmerman case ... spin Apr 2012 #59
Oh com'on there is legal review ONLY after massive national nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #60
If you carefully read my post you will find that we agree on this point... spin Apr 2012 #61
What you ignore is the number of lives that are saved because a person with a carry permit ... spin Apr 2012 #55
Zimmy was lying: ""I thought Trayvon was slightly younger than me..." pokerfan Apr 2012 #52
Swill pipoman Apr 2012 #58
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»On Zimmy's statement to t...»Reply #56