General Discussion

TBF

(36,542 posts)

55. Well my perspective is that we can do both -

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 08:25 PM

Apr 2012

But I do understand that Occupy does not want the movement itself to be co-opted by any of the parties (and that includes the idiot Paulites). I think it's smart for them to do that. Should they also be voting - yes of course. Should they combine the two and have buttons at their marches? I would say no, but this year we'll probably see a lot of that sort of thing.

I do agree with you that folks are in denial - I only have to page through my friends/family on Facebook to see that. Low income, low information voters working against themselves because they have decided it is "cool" to be republican or their churches tell them so ... that is a real problem and it may take more than Occupy, a bourgeoisie movement at present, to get through to them. I agree with you 100% on that.

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Prediction: The May 1st "general strike" is going to be an enormous flop. [View all] TheWraith Apr 2012 OP

�Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revoluton inevitable� -JFK Fumesucker Apr 2012 #1

As true now as it was then, and the latter of the two is overdue. eom tledford Apr 2012 #11

Those who seek violent revolution MineralMan Apr 2012 #72

Those who are able to convince a majority that peaceful revolution LadyHawkAZ Apr 2012 #65

Violent revolution is so messy.. Fumesucker Apr 2012 #70

Good points but I don't know that MLK was correct. former9thward Apr 2012 #2

The statement that Martin Luther King made was distilled from ages of history. bluestate10 May 2012 #213

As a student of history I certainly don't agree with your analysis. former9thward May 2012 #219

That doesn't mean, though, that Dr. King was ok with gradualism Ken Burch May 2012 #226

I agree. If it gets 5 minutes on the evening news, I'll be amazed. badtoworse Apr 2012 #3

I'll bet you $10K it will make the news :) pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #8

So what? Marr May 2012 #121

It has to do with getting your message out badtoworse May 2012 #157

Getting your message out is important. Marr May 2012 #175

So you agree with The Wraith and want us all to give up. Ken Burch May 2012 #141

Turning OWS into an ideological purity test isn't going to change anything either. hack89 May 2012 #142

How about defing some specific objectives? badtoworse May 2012 #156

Has "99% Spring" done any of those things? Ken Burch May 2012 #228

Not surprising since the corporate media's biased against us. backscatter712 May 2012 #154

Then you'd just be preaching to the choir. randome May 2012 #155

Once you get a "leader", you lose the radicalism. Ken Burch May 2012 #229

Even if someone noticed the "strike" they won't know what they are striking for banned from Kos Apr 2012 #4

Have you seen what it's like on the Occupy Underground forum? randome Apr 2012 #9

Let's see... Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #10

Doomed I tell ya! bvar22 May 2012 #144

I don't think that the organizers believe it is going to be a huge deal media wise. CTyankee Apr 2012 #5

That is pretty much correct. It is an opportunity to support other actions beign called by allies.. Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #14

We shouldn't forget the impact of the teach ins by college professors about Vietnam that CTyankee Apr 2012 #20

Yes, things change. randome Apr 2012 #23

"There is nothing new under the sun" as the saying goes. CTyankee May 2012 #146

And once the Civil Rights movement was absorbed in to the Democratic Party in the early Seventies Ken Burch May 2012 #287

Whoa. I was thinking of posting something along those lines, too. randome Apr 2012 #6

Bold prediction, lol tritsofme Apr 2012 #7

That depends entirely on what you're expecting........ socialist_n_TN Apr 2012 #12

The same Dr. King who called for a general strike in support of the Memphis Sanitation workers? Morning Dew Apr 2012 #13

I think it is both hilarious and depressing that a general strike Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #15

I'd say the 'machete' part is more about the 'in-your-face' attitudes of many Occupiers. randome Apr 2012 #19

Yes because kissing the asses of the owners is working SO TBF Apr 2012 #30

I didn't say kiss their asses. randome Apr 2012 #38

There are several methods - and they can happen simultaneously TBF Apr 2012 #43

According to many Occupy reps, they can't happen simultaneously. randome Apr 2012 #47

Well my perspective is that we can do both - TBF Apr 2012 #55

If we get the government we deserve... randome Apr 2012 #62

why? RobertEarl Apr 2012 #75

Like the way Occupy pisses on 99% Spring? randome Apr 2012 #81

And what about you RobertEarl Apr 2012 #88

I think this is a good article that details a few of the tensions. Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #108

Bravo RobertEarl! Tace May 2012 #199

Everybody in 99% Spring should just have joined Occupy Ken Burch May 2012 #207

99% Spring pisses on OWS and the people by even existing Ken Burch May 2012 #227

Does the 99% Spring have ANY workers or poor people in its ranks? Does it HAVE ranks? Ken Burch May 2012 #269

Be a leader. randome May 2012 #271

I'm willing to do that. Ken Burch May 2012 #275

If OWS is so powerful, then I would think they'd absorb 99% Spring. randome May 2012 #277

I was trying to take a less-confrontational tone in that last post. Ken Burch May 2012 #278

It doesn't make sense, that's what is wrong with it. randome May 2012 #279

I doubt it would mean anything. Ken Burch May 2012 #283

I'll start that dialogue...but need a link. Ken Burch May 2012 #288

No idea what 99% Spring has going for it, if anything. randome May 2012 #291

Perhaps the German Green party notion of rotating spokespersons might work. Ken Burch May 2012 #293

I honestly don't think anyone hates OWS enough to assassinate someone. randome May 2012 #295

The problem is, anytime a "leader" emerges, even if OWS didn't have one now Ken Burch May 2012 #302

Since you like to look at history as an example... randome May 2012 #311

It's partly due to the fact that the Democrats had become as pro-corporate as the GOP Ken Burch May 2012 #205

Is it not possible in smaller occupies especially that they have been co-opted by anti-Obama patrice May 2012 #131

Nobody on the inside is ever on OUR side. Ken Burch May 2012 #136

wrong got root Apr 2012 #79

"In-your-face" like the 504 protests suffragette May 2012 #127

But they had a coherent focused message and leader mythology Apr 2012 #16

It's way too early for legislative change. The Tea Party has recently changed its focus from CTyankee Apr 2012 #25

Jeeeeeeesus. Do you know how many decades it took to produce lasting legislative change? Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #26

So legislative change was tried early on, then. randome Apr 2012 #28

That doesn't even make sense. Congresscritters in 1875 or 76 introduced the 1st Civil Rights Act... Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #46

Not to mention 100 years of VIOLENCE, state violence and organized private violence, to HiPointDem Apr 2012 #93

what a joke. HiPointDem Apr 2012 #89

What's the point in introducing legislation Ken Burch May 2012 #320

Just because you don't understand flat leadership TBF Apr 2012 #27

No, 'flat leadership' means no one is in charge. randome Apr 2012 #31

It means that there is a democratic method to making decisions - TBF Apr 2012 #35

Here we go. randome Apr 2012 #41

I can only discern from your comments - TBF Apr 2012 #44

Not sure how I can prove that. randome Apr 2012 #49

does the existence of occupy prevent you from your work toward legislative change? i don't think HiPointDem May 2012 #126

Of course Occupy is not preventing anyone from taking other approaches. randome May 2012 #152

"...are often derided..." = *sob* HiPointDem May 2012 #191

Go to the Occupy Underground forum in Activism and you'll see what I mean. randome May 2012 #193

They did those tactics because the kind YOU would favor Ken Burch May 2012 #266

You appear to be guilty of the very thing you indict others for... LanternWaste May 2012 #170

Once any Left group has a specific leader Ken Burch May 2012 #262

The current model OWS has is also not working. randome May 2012 #264

Depends on the group dynamic. Ken Burch May 2012 #276

Wins the thread. ellisonz Apr 2012 #21

+99% pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #36

+1. now that king is dead he's the saint of the bourgies, most of whom reviled him when he was HiPointDem Apr 2012 #83

Yep-- they promote people like MLK and Ghandi as icons of passivity and Marr May 2012 #122

The same Dr. King who helped organize the Montgomery bus boycott? intheflow May 2012 #118

Define "enormous flop". TBF Apr 2012 #17

Union weakness isn't an excuse... brooklynite May 2012 #181

The fact that we have anyone protesting in this police state TBF May 2012 #184

I've been offline. What general strike? thanks. uppityperson Apr 2012 #18

LINK: May Day Directory: Occupy General Strike In Over 135 Cities pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #22

Thank you, off to read it uppityperson Apr 2012 #33

Here you go: ellisonz Apr 2012 #24

Thanks, off to read uppityperson Apr 2012 #32

I can't do it. I need the money. knitter4democracy Apr 2012 #29

we understand that 2pooped2pop Apr 2012 #57

Really, your situation is understood and Occupiers certainly are sympathetic... Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #60

Thank you. knitter4democracy Apr 2012 #100

Do what you can. backscatter712 May 2012 #158

Occupiers understand that better than most - TBF May 2012 #185

So now striking is like wielding a machete? Cali_Democrat Apr 2012 #34

So you think a strike is like wielding a machete? Well then civil disobedience must be like Zalatix May 2012 #204

What would it take.. Triloon Apr 2012 #37

+1 TBF Apr 2012 #39

+2 and welcome to DU, Triloon! pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #52

... SammyWinstonJack Apr 2012 #96

i think they know it is not going to a an actual general 2pooped2pop Apr 2012 #40

I agree NoMoreWarNow Apr 2012 #45

so no point in even bothering to protest, eh? NoMoreWarNow Apr 2012 #42

I'm retired so I have an excuse! MoonRiver Apr 2012 #48

Um, excuse, me, retired? randome Apr 2012 #50

Why did you try to insult MoonRiver? Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #51

It was a joke. randome Apr 2012 #54

Sorry about misinterpreting. Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #56

Never a problem. randome Apr 2012 #58

It's Amazing to Me....that you are Predicting! Why is this "Flop" so imortant to you? KoKo Apr 2012 #53

My guess is that since Occupy claims to represent damned near everyone... randome Apr 2012 #61

Bunch of Gobbledygook ellisonz Apr 2012 #67

Ewww. Soda? randome Apr 2012 #69

Umm...? ellisonz Apr 2012 #73

fail got root Apr 2012 #90

aim at the problem, not the symptom got root Apr 2012 #84

But we have no hope of getting a progressive government Ken Burch May 2012 #323

It's a typical hit and run post. myrna minx Apr 2012 #71

T Flying Squirrel Apr 2012 #59

There is a general strike planned? Taylor Smite Apr 2012 #63

LINK: May Day Directory: Occupy General Strike In Over 135 Cities pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #86

Thanks Taylor Smite Apr 2012 #92

I believe a time will come when such actions will be successful... jimlup Apr 2012 #64

Couldn't agree more- Register to vote, occupy the polls. Simple solution. nt cecilfirefox Apr 2012 #66

If the MSM ignores it then how would most people know? Odin2005 Apr 2012 #68

not surprised you'd say so. but painting king in some kind of opposition to occupy = the HiPointDem Apr 2012 #74

it is just another absurdity in the OP quinnox Apr 2012 #82

Oh my LORD. woo me with science Apr 2012 #104

Well, you know, "some say" that King was really a Republican. Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #110

Obviously, MLK would have counseled caution, do not go into the streets to protest... pinboy3niner May 2012 #115

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. got root Apr 2012 #76

a strike is not a violent action and is protected by our constitution quinnox Apr 2012 #77

to the new world order it is got root Apr 2012 #85

Where are strikes mentioned in the Constitution, and how ..... oldhippie Apr 2012 #103

They aren't protected in the Constitution... white_wolf May 2012 #129

...and you'll be here uncontrollably cheering on it's demise the entire day! Earth_First Apr 2012 #78

How is a general strike "outrage and a machete" ? marmar Apr 2012 #80

yeah, it's slander by folks parroting the memes of the elite got root Apr 2012 #87

general strike = rwandan massacre. isn't it clear? don't you agree? HiPointDem Apr 2012 #95

That's the sort of rhetoric you get woo me with science May 2012 #123

I'm with ya. If you want change history shows the best thing raouldukelives Apr 2012 #91

I predict if they are arrested for nothing and die in jail cells stupidicus Apr 2012 #94

We are expecting minimal impact on our campus ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2012 #97

which campus? got root Apr 2012 #98

Agreed. MrSlayer Apr 2012 #99

This thread is the first I've heard of it (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2012 #101

You Damn Hippies, Get off my Lawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Vanje Apr 2012 #102

Since you fail to define your terms ("flop" vs. "success"), this coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #105

So what. I'm getting together and meeting up with some cool like-minded people. limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #106

This is the first I've heard of it treestar Apr 2012 #107

And It Is Obvious,That That, Is EXACTLY What You Want... WillyT Apr 2012 #109

So, in your opinion, rather than getting out in the streets, what should we do? MadHound Apr 2012 #111

And I predict you would call it an enormous flop no matter what. girl gone mad Apr 2012 #112

Bwaahaahaa! Thanks for that, totally made my night as I plan for tomorrow. Zorra Apr 2012 #113

+99%. Many of us here will also be with you in the streets for MayDay, Zorra pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #114

And for that reason alone, I will kick this thread! lonestarnot May 2012 #116

That is a great post, Zorra... Luminous Animal May 2012 #117

Glad you think so, LA. Some things are just so very.... Zorra May 2012 #237

I'm running across a pretty high incidence of "Don't feed the beast. Let it ALL crash & burn." BUT patrice May 2012 #119

What's the alternative Ken Burch May 2012 #135

Please, don't try to claim King as some kind of moderate milquetoast. Marr May 2012 #120

I don't think OP is saying that. That long arc that King told us about requires MUCH more patrice May 2012 #124

Considering he/she flatly stated that strikes don't work, Marr May 2012 #128

Occupy Denver donheld May 2012 #125

Thanks for the opportunity to post this link to MayDay events around the country :) pinboy3niner May 2012 #130

Oh, and my prediction: Come MayDay, this OP will be proved to be an enormous flop pinboy3niner May 2012 #132

This OP was right on the money.... Joe the Revelator May 2012 #162

You wish Cali_Democrat May 2012 #203

It has not endured in the slightest....during the winter when it died.... Joe the Revelator May 2012 #239

You must live in a cave somewhere Rex May 2012 #273

What's 'funny' is you laughing at people who want to be on your side. randome May 2012 #274

Oh are you sure...those OWS people could turn Rex May 2012 #307

And you were proven to be correct, Pinboy. You are a far better predictor than the OP. I'll put sabrina 1 May 2012 #313

Look, you've always had your cards on the table. Ken Burch May 2012 #133

Why don't you just admit your're essentially a conservative and be done with it? Ken Burch May 2012 #134

So not supporting OWS = RW? Really? nt hack89 May 2012 #143

Trashing OWS is what the RW does. bahrbearian May 2012 #153

"Trashing" is in the eye of the beholder hack89 May 2012 #159

Following ineffectual stupidity is what the RW does....thinking for ourselves is what the left is Joe the Revelator May 2012 #161

So how left are you? Obama left, Pelosi,left. Not really left are they. bahrbearian May 2012 #164

This is a question our "relativistic" leftists NEVER answer....... socialist_n_TN May 2012 #232

Does Marxist count? bahrbearian May 2012 #233

Half the people on this forum who call themselves leftists... white_wolf May 2012 #236

Dissing OWS is...telling people that OWS isn't worth shit is. Ken Burch May 2012 #169

I believe Hack89 has done a lot in Wisconsin during the current 'difficulties'. randome May 2012 #172

criticism, yes...dismissal, not so much. Ken Burch May 2012 #201

The ones that want war are neocons that ran for deferments when the time to fight bluestate10 May 2012 #216

Is 99% Spring right wing? nt hack89 May 2012 #186

Those who built the 99% Spring should just have joined Occupy Ken Burch May 2012 #202

There does not appear to be a place in OWS for those of us that hack89 May 2012 #245

There are a lot of people who support specific parties within Occupy Ken Burch May 2012 #247

Well, you just put your finger on why OWS has some competition. hack89 May 2012 #249

I support the Democratic Party and I wasn't pissing on you. Ken Burch May 2012 #251

Is this contradictory? WinniSkipper May 2012 #195

What else would you call supporting a totally unjustified splinter group Ken Burch May 2012 #210

So you reject members of the Democratic Pary hack89 May 2012 #246

What an utterly nonsensical claim. Where did you get the idea that OWS doesn't want democrats? Do sabrina 1 May 2012 #248

Why don't you read the post that I am replying to. hack89 May 2012 #250

I AM a member of the Democratic Party and a supporter of Occupy Ken Burch May 2012 #254

So then 99% Spring is for those of us that do endorse Democrats hack89 May 2012 #256

You weren't forbidden to individually work for Dems as a member of OWS. Ken Burch May 2012 #260

You have all these established organizations with many of the same goals of OWS hack89 May 2012 #265

Then the 99% Spring shouldn't have come in with the attitude that "we can do it and OWS can't" Ken Burch May 2012 #267

OWS should not defer to anyone. I certainly don't defer to them. hack89 May 2012 #296

There has to be SOME independence Ken Burch May 2012 #298

And yet there was no progress on those issues hack89 May 2012 #322

It comes down to giving the "leaders" no alternative but to do what's right. Ken Burch May 2012 #324

The only leverage you have over these leaders is the ballot. hack89 May 2012 #326

Which organizations are those? Ken Burch May 2012 #268

MoveOn.org, Rebuild The Dream, AFL-CIO, United Auto Workers, CODEPINK: Women for Peace, hack89 May 2012 #294

And Occupy wasn't dissing those groups-nor was I,actually. Ken Burch May 2012 #300

Wraith seems to be a moderate, with some progressive tendencies., bluestate10 May 2012 #215

You can't have progressive tendencies and devote ALL your posts here to bashing the Left Ken Burch May 2012 #224

You've never offered a good alternative-in fact, you've never offered a POSITIVE message at all Ken Burch May 2012 #137

You use YOUR chisel on the people, not the oppressors Ken Burch May 2012 #138

Bookmarked. lamp_shade May 2012 #139

slow change ISN'T change Ken Burch May 2012 #140

Gradualism doesn't mean surrender and defeat. Arkana May 2012 #149

There's a huge difference between gradualism and expecting a long struggle Ken Burch May 2012 #168

The only victories that mattered in the Civil Rights movement were the 1964 and 1965 bills Ken Burch May 2012 #208

No other claim you made in this thread shows how blind you are. bluestate10 May 2012 #217

I salute all those who struggled for justice Ken Burch May 2012 #223

We don't even have gradualism. woo me with science May 2012 #321

The failure is not to try. mmonk May 2012 #145

The Status Quo: You're one of the "fringe people" if you don't go with the flow! nt Romulox May 2012 #147

Lmao. EFerrari May 2012 #148

Whatever lunatica May 2012 #150

My, aren't we concerned today? n/t backscatter712 May 2012 #151

No, actually I'm not. HappyMe May 2012 #163

You're not characterizing "general strike" properly. Robb May 2012 #160

Social Security was originally a third party idea Lydia Leftcoast May 2012 #165

The country was younger then. randome May 2012 #166

Um, most European countries have at least three parties and they're a lot more than 230 years old. Chorophyll May 2012 #171

Good point. randome May 2012 #176

What then is the precise and relevant cultural modifier ? LanternWaste May 2012 #174

Hell, I don't know. randome May 2012 #177

The large-and-unwieldy argument Chorophyll May 2012 #182

Didn't realize it was an 'attitude'. randome May 2012 #188

Well, after you hear it from enough people it feels like an attitude. Chorophyll May 2012 #194

I think the people can do damned near anything if they are organized and determined. randome May 2012 #200

Well, that would be cool! Chorophyll May 2012 #211

Premise built from little more than a post hoc ergo prompter hoc foundation , then. LanternWaste May 2012 #183

Okay, Nostradamus. Chorophyll May 2012 #167

What strike? WI_DEM May 2012 #173

Yeah, really... been off DU for a few days and this is the first I've heard of a "General Strike" OneTenthofOnePercent May 2012 #178

Well, this is true to form. TriMera May 2012 #179

I've never met other dems that hated their fellow dems Rex May 2012 #190

Yep. n/t TriMera May 2012 #192

I can't imagine why anyone responds to this OP...ever. Puglover May 2012 #196

Based on your expectations or that of the strikers themselves? LanternWaste May 2012 #180

What strike? FreeJoe May 2012 #187

This thread is so phuny Rex May 2012 #189

This message was self-deleted by its author HappyMe May 2012 #197

Prediction: whatchamacallit May 2012 #198

But he really loves Obama. girl gone mad May 2012 #206

Oh!!! bluestate10 May 2012 #218

He may own my vote due to lack of choice whatchamacallit May 2012 #222

Occupy Is The Top Headline On Bloomberg At 6 p.m. Tace May 2012 #209

A general strike is sucessful if it is sucessful. former9thward May 2012 #221

How dare you! randome May 2012 #261

That neither of you have either mushy numbers or statistics is not lost on anyone. EFerrari May 2012 #280

That would be proving a negative. randome May 2012 #282

I too favor persistence and patience. bluestate10 May 2012 #212

Huge turnout for OWS May Day march Tace May 2012 #214

+1. Hate to kick this hit and run POS, but... n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #231

Prediction: May Day marches that have been going on for years will now become OWS May Day Marches... SidDithers May 2012 #220

!!! Tarheel_Dem May 2012 #234

Said the guy who probably never marched on May Day in his life Ken Burch May 2012 #327

... SidDithers May 2012 #328

Yeah right, Sid...like you were EVER on the Left. Ken Burch May 2012 #329

... SidDithers May 2012 #330

Go ahead...you're just laughing at the truth. Ken Burch May 2012 #332

I'll stop laughing when you stop posting personal attacks... SidDithers May 2012 #333

Nobody claimed that Occupy was the inventor of May Day, or anything remotely like that. Ken Burch May 2012 #335

Wildcat strikes are illegal thanks to efforts by FDR. joshcryer May 2012 #225

Not the flop many had hoped.... Zax2me May 2012 #230

LOL Joe the Revelator May 2012 #241

The best was yet to come 8 months ago, too. randome May 2012 #263

Not a flop at all HarveyDarkey May 2012 #235

Lol! A hilarious thread! I hope you didn't bet money on this! Flop! Lol! sabrina 1 May 2012 #238

What world do you live in? Joe the Revelator May 2012 #240

What was accomplished? WinniSkipper May 2012 #243

'What did they accomplish'? What they set out to accomplish. sabrina 1 May 2012 #244

Pinboy's flyer WinniSkipper May 2012 #253

Hurting them with whom? The OPD -- who is under threat of sanctions? EFerrari May 2012 #284

No, not the OPD WinniSkipper May 2012 #301

Wait, let me get this straight. EFerrari May 2012 #303

No, that's not right WinniSkipper May 2012 #304

Um, if there's no "Joe Average", why do you invoke him? EFerrari May 2012 #305

Let's start with Joe WinniSkipper May 2012 #308

I think you need to put some time in reading EFerrari May 2012 #310

And I respect your WinniSkipper May 2012 #314

The accomplishment was 'success'? randome May 2012 #255

They set out to accomplish success and they succeeded! 4th law of robotics May 2012 #258

Um, the action went global. That's success. EFerrari May 2012 #285

Yeah, you may want to reassess that 4th law of robotics May 2012 #257

Sad thread really, hating on ordinary people Rex May 2012 #272

Very revealing thread. n/t EFerrari May 2012 #286

241 replies and nobody has stepped up yet guardian May 2012 #242

Typical hit-and-run concern troll bullshit RetroLounge May 2012 #252

Pointing out that something is likely to fail doesn't mean you necessarily oppose . . . 4th law of robotics May 2012 #259

With the OP, though, it is. Ken Burch May 2012 #281

Let it go. My 80 year old Mom didn't bank or buy yesterday. EFerrari May 2012 #289

Glad to hear that. La Lucha Continua! Ken Burch May 2012 #290

No one can stop this. EFerrari May 2012 #299

Sorry but May 1st was May Day, not Occupy Day. randome May 2012 #292

OWS has global support. Sorry. EFerrari May 2012 #297

"keep it real" Rex May 2012 #306

Nobody SAID Occupy invented May Day. Ken Burch May 2012 #316

Post #289 implies that Occupy is the driving force behind May Day. randome May 2012 #318

Shhh... SidDithers May 2012 #334

It is sad ain't it? Rex May 2012 #270

How about some candle light to counter the dark? suffragette May 2012 #309

So did the family not respond to offers for modification? randome May 2012 #312

Looks like the last person they helped was able to renegotiate and stay in his home suffragette May 2012 #315

I would always hope for that, as well. randome May 2012 #317

+1 harun May 2012 #319

to quote Nelson.."ha-ha!!!" U4ikLefty May 2012 #325

Has it started yet? slackmaster May 2012 #331

bump for the laughs U4ikLefty May 2012 #336

Capitalist imperialist running dog lackey. Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #337