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In reply to the discussion: The Rise of a ‘Democratic’ Fascism (John Pilger) [View all]Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)53. You know, I thought you'd never ask. Just a few examples.
This reached its apogee in 2014 when the Obama administration splashed out $5 billion on a coup against the elected government.
A blatant, "Pants on Fire" level lie according to Politifact:
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/
These fascists are now integrated into the Kiev coup government.
First of all, there was no coup in Ukraine. Secondly, if by fascists Pilger is referring to members of the Svoboda and Right Sector parties, neither party has any representation in Ukraine's governing cabinet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ukraine
No western leader has spoken up about the revival of fascism in the heart of Europe with the exception of Vladimir Putin, whose people lost 22 million to a Nazi invasion that came through the borderland of Ukraine.
"Vladimir Putin's people" didn't lose 22 million in World War II. The now-defunct Soviet Union lost over 20 million people. Of course, the Soviet Union comprised 15 separate Republics, only one of which was Russia. Vladimir Putin (who was born 7 years after the end of World War II) is president of the Russian Federation. And estimates show that the Russian SSR lost approximately 14 million people (both civilian and military), or 12.7% of its population. The Ukrainian SSR actually lost a greater proportion of its population than the Russian SSR in World War II (16.3%), as did the Belarussian SSR and Armenian SSR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
Now, if Pilger is insinuating that Vladimir Putin's "people" includes the 14 other former Soviet States as well as Russia, well, that's quite telling.
Nulands coup in Ukraine did not go to plan. NATO was prevented from seizing Russias historic, legitimate, warm-water naval base in Crimea. The mostly Russian population of Crimea illegally annexed to Ukraine by Nikita Krushchev in 1954 voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, as they had done in the 1990s. The referendum was voluntary, popular and internationally observed. There was no invasion.
Here's a good one. First of all, of course, there was no coup. Secondly, NATO never attempted to "seize" the Russian Black Sea Fleet--I don't know where he's coming from there. The 1954 transfer of Crimea from the Russian SSR to the Ukrainian SSR was an internal Soviet matter, but Crimea had never, ever been part of the modern Russian Federation, and in 1994 Russia agreed via treaty that notwithstanding the existing Black Sea Fleet bases, Crimea was Ukrainian territory and it would respect Ukraine's sovereignty.
Funny thing about the Crimean referendum and the so-called "international observers." These were not observers from the UN or OSCE or any other legitimate election monitoring agency. These "observers" came from the "Eurasian Observatory for Democracy and Elections", a sham Russian based group whose leaders have ties to far right organizations (funny that Pilger trumpets them while supposedly decrying fascism, don't you think?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Observatory_for_Democracy_and_Elections
Of course, the biggest lie by Pilger is that "There was no invasion (of Crimea by Russia)" which is simply idiotic. Of course there was a Russian military invasion of Crimea. Well-organized and well-armed, regimented military units--far beyond the capabilities of any local militia that would have the opportunity to organize in literally four days--seized the local parliament, airports, harbors, Ukrainian military bases and other portions of Crimea beginning around February 26, 2014. A timeline of events in the run up to the infamous March 16, 2014 referendum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2014_Crimean_crisis
Here's a report from The Guardian the day the local parliament was seized
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/ukraine-pro-russian-gunmen-seize-crimea-parliament-live-updates?view=desktop#block-530efb46e4b0ddf5cbe7ba63
Maxim, a pro-Russian activist who refused to give his last name, told the Associated Press that he and other activists had been camping out overnight outside the local parliament in Crimeas regional capital, Simferopol, when heavily armed men wearing flak jackets, and holding rocket-propelled grenade launchers and sniper rifles took over the building. He said:
"Our activists were sitting there all night calmly, building the barricades. At 5 oclock unknown men turned up and went to the building. They got into the courtyard and put everyone on the ground.
They were asking who we were. When we said we stand for the Russian language and Russia, they said: Dont be afraid, were with you. Then they began to storm the building bringing down the doors.
They didnt look like volunteers or amateurs, they were professionals. This was clearly a well-organised operation. They did not allow anyone to come near. They seized the building, drove out the police, there were about six police officers inside.
Who are they? Nobody knows. Its about 50-60 people, fully armed."
And finally:
On May 2, 2014, in Odessa, 41 ethnic Russians were burned alive in the trade union headquarters with police standing by. The Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh hailed the massacre as another bright day in our national history. In the American and British media, this was reported as a murky tragedy resulting from clashes between nationalists (neo-Nazis) and separatists (people collecting signatures for a referendum on a federal Ukraine).
In fact, the events in Odessa on May 2nd were indeed clashes between two sides and not just a one-sided slaughter of pro-Russian separatists as Pilger claims. While the official pro-Russian line only wants to focus on the fire at the trade union building itself, the events did not start there. In fact, the incident started when a pro-Ukrainian demonstration was attacked by a pro-Russian group, and at various points gunmen identified as pro-Russian were seen shooting at and killing several on the pro-Ukrainian side. Only after that initial event was there the later confrontation at the Trade Union building. Even at the Trade Union building, sources said there were Molotov cocktails thrown at the building and from the building, indicating it was a two-sided clash between the groups.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_May_2014_Odessa_clashes
This rally was later attacked by a pro-Russian mob of 300 from the group Odesskaya Druzhina armed with bats and firearms at Hretska Street.[3][15][24] Both sides fought running battles against each other, exchanging stones and petrol bombs, and built barricades throughout the city during the afternoon.[25] Both sides had firearms.[26] Some eyewitness accounts said the first victim was a pro-Ukraine protester shot with an automatic weapon in the lung around 13:40 local time,[27][28] and that an anti-Maidan supporter, armed with a Kalashnikov assault rifle, opened fire in a lane leading to Deribasivska Street.[17] Some shots were fired from the roof top of the Afina shopping centre to shoot down at the crowds.
So, as you can see, Pilger's account on Ukraine is full of documentable falsehoods. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to lay it out.
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As opposed to Corporate McPravda that helped lie America into illegal wars of aggression?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#65
Pilger claims President Obama spent $5 billion in 2014 to finance a coup in Ukraine.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#78
Where in the OP is that stated? I'm scrolling through until my eyes cross and I'm not finding it
Autumn
Mar 2015
#81
Explain the 'democracy building' we are doing in Ukraine for all that money. We did the same thing
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#141
The bottom line here is that Pilger lied regarding the $5 billion figure, and you can't escape that.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#149
What happened to the Orange Revolution and all that democracy building and how much did we
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#185
Pilger didn't need to 'want me' to believe anything. We poured money into Iraq, into Ukraine
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#310
Telling me to shut up makes you sound like some kind of nutty authority, uhnope.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#68
That's your opinion. Pilger has enormous credibility around the world. Maybe that is why
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#146
Why smear me? Nothing to say about Fascism in the USA? I'd add, 'Huh?' but, you know.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#10
Pilger's against the fascists that he wants to be against. But he's okay with the other fascists.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#27
Just keep telling the truth Octafish. A lot of people hate freedom of the press.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#38
Seeing as how your OP and one of your replies in this thread contain pictures
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#136
Yugoslavia was a model for the future world. Nothing commie about putting people over war profits.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#6
I've noticed that also. And wonder why anyone here would be upset about the truth
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#40
The reason goes back asking Poppy Bush: why he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#73
Why didn't he report that earlier? That's a good question. I can think of a few reasons why
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#101
So, you can't find where I lied. That's different, isn't it? That's called a smear.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#20
If they're documentable lies, then by all means DOCUMENT THEM with some links.
Maedhros
Mar 2015
#35
I've asked the same question. But still have not received the documentation that supposedly exists.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#47
So Virginia Nuland was the one lying then, and Pilger was merely giving her credit for telling the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#55
Regardless of what "Virginia" Nuland said, the issue has been researched and Pilger's lying.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#58
So neocon, Virginia Nuland lied? Someone is lying, that's for sure, and generally speaking when a
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#61
As far as I know, "Virginia" Nuland appears to be correct in her assertion. Pilger is lying.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#63
Virginia Nuland is a neocon, married to a neocon. I despise Neocons. They lie, they lied us into a
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#67
Why are you talking about "Virginia" Nuland? We're talking about John Pilger lying. Read his quote.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#70
It is precisely the point. You argue relentlessly that Pilger is a liar, Tommy_Carcetti.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#79
Are you admitting that Pilger lied when he claimed Obama spent $5 billion on a "coup" in Ukraine?
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#84
We don't know, do we? It's classified Top Secret. Along with a lot more information we should know.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#89
Yes, and neocons are suddenly popular here, AND 'truthful'! She was caught planning the coup
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#100
You don't want us to talk about the neocons who were over there plotting for AFTER the Coup
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#96
From 2011: Goldman Sachs Is So Desperate To Get Into Ukraine It's Advising The Government For FREE
Octafish
Mar 2015
#105
I posted FACTS. Not lies. Facts you claim are TRUE. That neocon Victoria Nuland boasted that the US
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#139
Pilger claimed President Obama spent $5 billion in 2014 to overthrow the Ukrainian government.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#154
If anyone ever needed this whole argument summed up in a nutshell, there it is.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#186
I agree with that. Virginia, yes there is a Santa Claus, Nuland's involvement in the pre-coup is
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#209
Considering you again have refused to at least acknowledge the facts I just stated, you
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#212
And coincidentally, she got what she wanted. And even considered what to do about the Neo Nazis
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#260
I'm glad you brought that up.. 'Things May Have Gotten Worse in Ukraine for the LGBT Community'
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#258
And you're getting this impression that LGBT allies don't care about the Ukrainian LGBT community...
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#263
Stop it! I did not try to use this issue, I responded to Zappaman's attempt to use it. Do NOT
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#269
Do you support the US funding Ukraine, where 80% of the population opposes Gay Rights?
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#285
You are defending the use of Gay Rights as a political football? Ignoring Ukraine's 80% opposition
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#280
Now you are simply rambling. You support the US funding of Ukraine. You jumped in on the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#286
You supported someone who used the despicable tactic of using the rights of persecuted minorities
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#288
Do you support the funding of an almost totally anti-Gay rights Ukraine by the US?
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#291
You support Ukraine, a nation where 80% of the population opposes Gay Rights.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#292
Criticizing a professional debunker is not homophobic. Amazing Randi is undemocratic.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#235
Science and reality aren't democratic. You don't get to vote on what's true or not.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#236
Amazing Randi smeared Rupert Sheldrake. Amazing Randi broke US immigration law.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#238
I literally have no idea where you are going with this or how it's relevant to our discussion. nt
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#281
Would you like links to all the homophobes and anti-Semites you promote on DU?
zappaman
Mar 2015
#268
Why smear me over what Mearsheimer wrote? Take it out on him. That's the Fascist thing to do.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#277
What lies did Pilger tell? Could you link to them with documentation? You did say they
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#41
If you paste together a narrative of lies, such as the one I've pointed out on the Pilger piece...
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#124
Except you don't show he's any of that. So, all you got is a smear, zappaman.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#137
Its not an insult to point out how you like posting articles from anti-Semites and homophobes.
zappaman
Mar 2015
#170
You know, at this point I'm thinking you are some Andy Kauffman-esqe caricature....
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#166
Do I have to spell it out for you? The people who tried to overthrow FDR in 1933 had kids.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#183
"Mearsheimer is an expert in the field of international relations." And an anti-Semite.
zappaman
Mar 2015
#172
If they are waking up, we can expect a lot more flagwaving and scary bogeymen to appear
Tierra_y_Libertad
Mar 2015
#18
I read this article last year and was wondering what it was about, thanks for the info.
Rex
Mar 2015
#16
Yes now they are on their 5th president in Ukraine. Another RWing crook it appears.
Rex
Mar 2015
#28
So you are okay with the 5th president being a RWing criminal, thanks that was what i wanted to know
Rex
Mar 2015
#36
It is amusing, just to defend their pony people here will defend RWing leaders in other countries.
Rex
Mar 2015
#32
There really is no way to deny the neo-Nazi elements in the Ukraine government. So the default
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#44
Would you like to see the photos of all the world leaders who were posing with and making deals with
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#57
Oh it wasn't WE who 'white-washed all these Dictators, it was our LEADERS. So go talk to THEM.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#99
Who liked Gadaffi? Bishop Tutu for one, and Mandela. Both referred to him as a 'brother' for the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#143
Good and Evil....Its often in the eye of the beholder and people are complicated....
KoKo
Mar 2015
#244
Which of course totally justifies turning Libya into a shithole full of squabbling warlords n/t
eridani
Mar 2015
#225
Thanks. I will check that out. The most under-referenced liberal intellectual of my lifetime
Doctor_J
Mar 2015
#131
He's entitled to his opinion. Do you think the United States is entitled to kill innocent people?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#109
I'm sorry, Prescott Bush has something to do with Putin's war of aggression...how?
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#193
Prescott's ancestors are still on the Bridge of the Ship of State, making Big Bucks off War.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#197
His son, George Herbert Walker Bush, and grandson, George Walker Bush, both lied America into war.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#199
So, of course then President Obama paid $5 billlion in 2014 for a "coup" in Ukraine!
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#200
Because secret government is secret? Ask PNAC Robert Kagan's wife, Victoria Nuland.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#273
Why do you spread disinformation, Tommy_Carcetti? Is it some sort of sick game for you?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#298
Someone clearly hasn't been reading all the responses to his own posts here. nt
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#299
What I can hang on you, Octafish, is that you posted a piece with blatant misinformation.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#301
What disinformation did I post? Where I said you posted her name wrong when you didn't?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#303
Thanks for posting Octafish. Pleased to see the number of 'recs' your OP is receiving.
Purveyor
Mar 2015
#128
Remember who Uncle Sam hired for the secret government: the Mafia and the NAZIs.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#222
I think all the U.S. government / Obama apologists here prove that America is indeed a fascist state
AZ Progressive
Mar 2015
#145
Democrats believe in Democracy for everyone. It's genetic. Same for Fascism. You can just tell.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#204
Which makes him out to be PNAC chums with Robert Kagan, husband, coincidentally, of Victoria Nuland.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#243
PNAC is attempting to force US into arming Ukraine in a hoped-for war with Russia.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#247
PNAC ''Chums'' is a bad word on my part. Sorry. PNAC "Co-conspirators" would be more accurate.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#252
No, I'm hoping you'd maybe realize how hurtful and derogatory a word like r******* is.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#330
CIA manual Urged Rebels to Assassinate Their Own In Order to Create “Martyrs”
Ichingcarpenter
Mar 2015
#284
Russia's actions in Ukraine conflict an 'invasion', says US official Victoria Nuland
Octafish
Mar 2015
#314