Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: The Rise of a ‘Democratic’ Fascism (John Pilger) [View all]Octafish
(55,745 posts)94. Supporting Mr. Kagan are Richard Perle and Adnan Khashoggi...
Remember Richard (PNAC) Perle? Just after September 11 and the Washington-Wall Street axis of war profiteering was heating up, Perle hit up Adnan (Iran-Contra/BCCI) Khashoggi for $100 million to make his new "Trireme Partnerships" take off.
Khashoggi's money would help launch the Carlyle Group-like investment group Perle founded. The petromoney was not for arms, directly. It was for investing in companies that were going to be making a killing off of homeland security related areas.
Interesting selling point: Perle already had secured financing from in from Boeing and some other bigwigs like Henry Kissinger.
One of the most important articles The New Yorker ever published:
Lunch with the Chairman
by Seymour M. Hersh
17 March 2003
At the peak of his deal-making activities, in the nineteen-seventies, the Saudi-born businessman Adnan Khashoggi brokered billions of dollars in arms and aircraft sales for the Saudi royal family, earning hundreds of millions in commissions and fees. Though never convicted of wrongdoing, he was repeatedly involved in disputes with federal prosecutors and with the Securities and Exchange Commission, and in recent years he has been in litigation in Thailand and Los Angeles, among other places, concerning allegations of stock manipulation and fraud. During the Reagan Administration, Khashoggi was one of the middlemen between Oliver North, in the White House, and the mullahs in Iran in what became known as the Iran-Contra scandal. Khashoggi subsequently claimed that he lost ten million dollars that he had put up to obtain embargoed weapons for Iran which were to be bartered (with Presidential approval) for American hostages. The scandals of those times seemed to feed off each other: a congressional investigation revealed that Khashoggi had borrowed much of the money for the weapons from the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (B.C.C.I.), whose collapse, in 1991, defrauded thousands of depositors and led to years of inquiry and litigation.
Khashoggi is still brokering. In January of this year, he arranged a private lunch, in France, to bring together Harb Saleh al-Zuhair, a Saudi industrialist whose family fortune includes extensive holdings in construction, electronics, and engineering companies throughout the Middle East, and Richard N. Perle, the chairman of the Defense Policy Board, who is one of the most outspoken and influential American advocates of war with Iraq.
The Defense Policy Board is a Defense Department advisory group composed primarily of highly respected former government officials, retired military officers, and academics. Its members, who serve without pay, include former national-security advisers, Secretaries of Defense, and heads of the C.I.A. The board meets several times a year at the Pentagon to review and assess the countrys strategic defense policies.
Perle is also a managing partner in a venture-capital company called Trireme Partners L.P., which was registered in November, 2001, in Delaware. Triremes main business, according to a two-page letter that one of its representatives sent to Khashoggi last November, is to invest in companies dealing in technology, goods, and services that are of value to homeland security and defense. The letter argued that the fear of terrorism would increase the demand for such products in Europe and in countries like Saudi Arabia and Singapore.
CONTINUED...
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/03/17/030317fa_fact
[font color="green"]To make a killing off war, that is what PNAC is partly about. The other side is control.[/font color]
Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
Many neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz are disciples of a philosopher who believed that the elite should use deception, religious fervor and perpetual war to control the ignorant masses.
By Jim Lobe / AlterNet May 18, 2003
What would you do if you wanted to topple Saddam Hussein, but your intelligence agencies couldn't find the evidence to justify a war?
A follower of Leo Strauss may just hire the "right" kind of men to get the job done people with the intellect, acuity, and, if necessary, the political commitment, polemical skills, and, above all, the imagination to find the evidence that career intelligence officers could not detect.
The "right" man for Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, suggests Seymour Hersh in his recent New Yorker article entitled 'Selective Intelligence,' was Abram Shulsky, director of the Office of Special Plans (OSP) an agency created specifically to find the evidence of WMDs and/or links with Al Qaeda, piece it together, and clinch the case for the invasion of Iraq.
Like Wolfowitz, Shulsky is a student of an obscure German Jewish political philosopher named Leo Strauss who arrived in the United States in 1938. Strauss taught at several major universities, including Wolfowitz and Shulsky's alma mater, the University of Chicago, before his death in 1973.
Strauss is a popular figure among the neoconservatives. Adherents of his ideas include prominent figures both within and outside the administration. They include 'Weekly Standard' editor William Kristol; his father and indeed the godfather of the neoconservative movement, Irving Kristol; the new Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Stephen Cambone, a number of senior fellows at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) (home to former Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle and Lynne Cheney), and Gary Schmitt, the director of the influential Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which is chaired by Kristol the Younger.
Strauss' philosophy is hardly incidental to the strategy and mindset adopted by these men as is obvious in Shulsky's 1999 essay titled "Leo Strauss and the World of Intelligence (By Which We Do Not Mean Nous)" (in Greek philosophy the term nous denotes the highest form of rationality). As Hersh notes in his article, Shulsky and his co-author Schmitt "criticize America's intelligence community for its failure to appreciate the duplicitous nature of the regimes it deals with, its susceptibility to social-science notions of proof, and its inability to cope with deliberate concealment." They argued that Strauss's idea of hidden meaning, "alerts one to the possibility that political life may be closely linked to deception. Indeed, it suggests that deception is the norm in political life, and the hope, to say nothing of the expectation, of establishing a politics that can dispense with it is the exception."
CONTINUED...
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/leo_strauss%27_philosophy_of_deception
And Tommy_Carcetti pretends he doesn't know anything about PNAC, he just wants to show how demonstrably un-factual the $5 billion cost of overthrowing Ukraine is that liar Parry, er, Pilger reported. Right. The figure's probably a higher. A lot higher.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
333 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
As opposed to Corporate McPravda that helped lie America into illegal wars of aggression?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#65
Pilger claims President Obama spent $5 billion in 2014 to finance a coup in Ukraine.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#78
Where in the OP is that stated? I'm scrolling through until my eyes cross and I'm not finding it
Autumn
Mar 2015
#81
Explain the 'democracy building' we are doing in Ukraine for all that money. We did the same thing
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#141
The bottom line here is that Pilger lied regarding the $5 billion figure, and you can't escape that.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#149
What happened to the Orange Revolution and all that democracy building and how much did we
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#185
Pilger didn't need to 'want me' to believe anything. We poured money into Iraq, into Ukraine
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#310
Telling me to shut up makes you sound like some kind of nutty authority, uhnope.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#68
That's your opinion. Pilger has enormous credibility around the world. Maybe that is why
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#146
Why smear me? Nothing to say about Fascism in the USA? I'd add, 'Huh?' but, you know.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#10
Pilger's against the fascists that he wants to be against. But he's okay with the other fascists.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#27
Just keep telling the truth Octafish. A lot of people hate freedom of the press.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#38
Seeing as how your OP and one of your replies in this thread contain pictures
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#136
Yugoslavia was a model for the future world. Nothing commie about putting people over war profits.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#6
I've noticed that also. And wonder why anyone here would be upset about the truth
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#40
The reason goes back asking Poppy Bush: why he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#73
Why didn't he report that earlier? That's a good question. I can think of a few reasons why
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#101
So, you can't find where I lied. That's different, isn't it? That's called a smear.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#20
If they're documentable lies, then by all means DOCUMENT THEM with some links.
Maedhros
Mar 2015
#35
I've asked the same question. But still have not received the documentation that supposedly exists.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#47
So Virginia Nuland was the one lying then, and Pilger was merely giving her credit for telling the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#55
Regardless of what "Virginia" Nuland said, the issue has been researched and Pilger's lying.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#58
So neocon, Virginia Nuland lied? Someone is lying, that's for sure, and generally speaking when a
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#61
As far as I know, "Virginia" Nuland appears to be correct in her assertion. Pilger is lying.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#63
Virginia Nuland is a neocon, married to a neocon. I despise Neocons. They lie, they lied us into a
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#67
Why are you talking about "Virginia" Nuland? We're talking about John Pilger lying. Read his quote.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#70
It is precisely the point. You argue relentlessly that Pilger is a liar, Tommy_Carcetti.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#79
Are you admitting that Pilger lied when he claimed Obama spent $5 billion on a "coup" in Ukraine?
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#84
We don't know, do we? It's classified Top Secret. Along with a lot more information we should know.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#89
Yes, and neocons are suddenly popular here, AND 'truthful'! She was caught planning the coup
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#100
You don't want us to talk about the neocons who were over there plotting for AFTER the Coup
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#96
From 2011: Goldman Sachs Is So Desperate To Get Into Ukraine It's Advising The Government For FREE
Octafish
Mar 2015
#105
I posted FACTS. Not lies. Facts you claim are TRUE. That neocon Victoria Nuland boasted that the US
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#139
Pilger claimed President Obama spent $5 billion in 2014 to overthrow the Ukrainian government.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#154
If anyone ever needed this whole argument summed up in a nutshell, there it is.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#186
I agree with that. Virginia, yes there is a Santa Claus, Nuland's involvement in the pre-coup is
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#209
Considering you again have refused to at least acknowledge the facts I just stated, you
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#212
And coincidentally, she got what she wanted. And even considered what to do about the Neo Nazis
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#260
I'm glad you brought that up.. 'Things May Have Gotten Worse in Ukraine for the LGBT Community'
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#258
And you're getting this impression that LGBT allies don't care about the Ukrainian LGBT community...
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#263
Stop it! I did not try to use this issue, I responded to Zappaman's attempt to use it. Do NOT
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#269
Do you support the US funding Ukraine, where 80% of the population opposes Gay Rights?
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#285
You are defending the use of Gay Rights as a political football? Ignoring Ukraine's 80% opposition
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#280
Now you are simply rambling. You support the US funding of Ukraine. You jumped in on the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#286
You supported someone who used the despicable tactic of using the rights of persecuted minorities
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#288
Do you support the funding of an almost totally anti-Gay rights Ukraine by the US?
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#291
You support Ukraine, a nation where 80% of the population opposes Gay Rights.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#292
Criticizing a professional debunker is not homophobic. Amazing Randi is undemocratic.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#235
Science and reality aren't democratic. You don't get to vote on what's true or not.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#236
Amazing Randi smeared Rupert Sheldrake. Amazing Randi broke US immigration law.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#238
I literally have no idea where you are going with this or how it's relevant to our discussion. nt
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#281
Would you like links to all the homophobes and anti-Semites you promote on DU?
zappaman
Mar 2015
#268
Why smear me over what Mearsheimer wrote? Take it out on him. That's the Fascist thing to do.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#277
What lies did Pilger tell? Could you link to them with documentation? You did say they
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#41
If you paste together a narrative of lies, such as the one I've pointed out on the Pilger piece...
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#124
Except you don't show he's any of that. So, all you got is a smear, zappaman.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#137
Its not an insult to point out how you like posting articles from anti-Semites and homophobes.
zappaman
Mar 2015
#170
You know, at this point I'm thinking you are some Andy Kauffman-esqe caricature....
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#166
Do I have to spell it out for you? The people who tried to overthrow FDR in 1933 had kids.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#183
"Mearsheimer is an expert in the field of international relations." And an anti-Semite.
zappaman
Mar 2015
#172
If they are waking up, we can expect a lot more flagwaving and scary bogeymen to appear
Tierra_y_Libertad
Mar 2015
#18
I read this article last year and was wondering what it was about, thanks for the info.
Rex
Mar 2015
#16
Yes now they are on their 5th president in Ukraine. Another RWing crook it appears.
Rex
Mar 2015
#28
So you are okay with the 5th president being a RWing criminal, thanks that was what i wanted to know
Rex
Mar 2015
#36
It is amusing, just to defend their pony people here will defend RWing leaders in other countries.
Rex
Mar 2015
#32
There really is no way to deny the neo-Nazi elements in the Ukraine government. So the default
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#44
Would you like to see the photos of all the world leaders who were posing with and making deals with
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#57
Oh it wasn't WE who 'white-washed all these Dictators, it was our LEADERS. So go talk to THEM.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#99
Who liked Gadaffi? Bishop Tutu for one, and Mandela. Both referred to him as a 'brother' for the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#143
Good and Evil....Its often in the eye of the beholder and people are complicated....
KoKo
Mar 2015
#244
Which of course totally justifies turning Libya into a shithole full of squabbling warlords n/t
eridani
Mar 2015
#225
Thanks. I will check that out. The most under-referenced liberal intellectual of my lifetime
Doctor_J
Mar 2015
#131
He's entitled to his opinion. Do you think the United States is entitled to kill innocent people?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#109
I'm sorry, Prescott Bush has something to do with Putin's war of aggression...how?
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#193
Prescott's ancestors are still on the Bridge of the Ship of State, making Big Bucks off War.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#197
His son, George Herbert Walker Bush, and grandson, George Walker Bush, both lied America into war.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#199
So, of course then President Obama paid $5 billlion in 2014 for a "coup" in Ukraine!
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#200
Because secret government is secret? Ask PNAC Robert Kagan's wife, Victoria Nuland.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#273
Why do you spread disinformation, Tommy_Carcetti? Is it some sort of sick game for you?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#298
Someone clearly hasn't been reading all the responses to his own posts here. nt
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#299
What I can hang on you, Octafish, is that you posted a piece with blatant misinformation.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#301
What disinformation did I post? Where I said you posted her name wrong when you didn't?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#303
Thanks for posting Octafish. Pleased to see the number of 'recs' your OP is receiving.
Purveyor
Mar 2015
#128
Remember who Uncle Sam hired for the secret government: the Mafia and the NAZIs.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#222
I think all the U.S. government / Obama apologists here prove that America is indeed a fascist state
AZ Progressive
Mar 2015
#145
Democrats believe in Democracy for everyone. It's genetic. Same for Fascism. You can just tell.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#204
Which makes him out to be PNAC chums with Robert Kagan, husband, coincidentally, of Victoria Nuland.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#243
PNAC is attempting to force US into arming Ukraine in a hoped-for war with Russia.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#247
PNAC ''Chums'' is a bad word on my part. Sorry. PNAC "Co-conspirators" would be more accurate.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#252
No, I'm hoping you'd maybe realize how hurtful and derogatory a word like r******* is.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#330
CIA manual Urged Rebels to Assassinate Their Own In Order to Create “Martyrs”
Ichingcarpenter
Mar 2015
#284
Russia's actions in Ukraine conflict an 'invasion', says US official Victoria Nuland
Octafish
Mar 2015
#314