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In reply to the discussion: The Rise of a ‘Democratic’ Fascism (John Pilger) [View all]muriel_volestrangler
(101,271 posts)241. No, not a PNAC guy
The only claim I can find of any connection of his (a British historian, not an American politician) to the PNAC is this, saying he signed a letter to NATO and EU heads of state: http://www.publiceye.org/pnac_chart/pnac.html
The letter:
As citizens of the Euro-Atlantic community of democracies, we wish to express our sympathy and solidarity with the people of the Russian Federation in their struggle against terrorism. The mass murderers who seized School No. 1 in Beslan committed a heinous act of terrorism for which there can be no rationale or excuse. While other mass murderers have killed children and unarmed civilians, the calculated targeting of so many innocent children at school is an unprecedented act of barbarism that violates the values and norms of our community and which all civilized nations must condemn.
At the same time, we are deeply concerned that these tragic events are being used to further undermine democracy in Russia. Russia's democratic institutions have always been weak and fragile. Since becoming President in January 2000, Vladimir Putin has made them even weaker. He has systematically undercut the freedom and independence of the press, destroyed the checks and balances in the Russian federal system, arbitrarily imprisoned both real and imagined political rivals, removed legitimate candidates from electoral ballots, harassed and arrested NGO leaders, and weakened Russia's political parties. In the wake of the horrific crime in Beslan, President Putin has announced plans to further centralize power and to push through measures that will take Russia a step closer to authoritarian regime.
We are also worried about the deteriorating conduct of Russia in its foreign relations. President Putin's foreign policy is increasingly marked by a threatening attitude towards Russia's neighbors and Europe's energy security, the return of rhetoric of militarism and empire, and by a refusal to comply with Russia's international treaty obligations. In all aspects of Russian political life, the instruments of state power appear to be being rebuilt and the dominance of the security services to grow. We believe that this conduct cannot be accepted as the foundation of a true partnership between Russia and the democracies of NATO and the European Union.
These moves are only the latest evidence that the present Russian leadership is breaking away from the core democratic values of the Euro-Atlantic community. All too often in the past, the West has remained silent and restrained its criticism in the belief that President Putin's steps in the wrong direction were temporary and the hope that Russia would soon return to a democratic and pro-Western path. Western leaders continue to embrace President Putin in the face of growing evidence that the country is moving in the wrong direction and that his strategy for fighting terrorism is producing less and less freedom. We firmly believe dictatorship will not and cannot be the answer to Russia's problems and the very real threats it faces.
The leaders of the West must recognize that our current strategy towards Russia is failing. Our policies have failed to contribute to the democratic Russia we wished for and the people of this great country deserve after all the suffering they have endured. It is time for us to rethink how and to what extent we engage with Putin's Russia and to put ourselves unambiguously on the side of democratic forces in Russia. At this critical time in history when the West is pushing for democratic change around the world, including in the broader Middle East, it is imperative that we do not look the other way in assessing Moscow's behavior or create a double standard for democracy in the countries which lie to Europe's East. We must speak the truth about what is happening in Russia. We owe it to the victims of Beslan and the tens of thousands of Russian democrats who are still fighting to preserve democracy and human freedom in their country.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/an-open-letter-to-the-heads-of-state-and-government-of-the-european-union-and-nato/228041.html
At the same time, we are deeply concerned that these tragic events are being used to further undermine democracy in Russia. Russia's democratic institutions have always been weak and fragile. Since becoming President in January 2000, Vladimir Putin has made them even weaker. He has systematically undercut the freedom and independence of the press, destroyed the checks and balances in the Russian federal system, arbitrarily imprisoned both real and imagined political rivals, removed legitimate candidates from electoral ballots, harassed and arrested NGO leaders, and weakened Russia's political parties. In the wake of the horrific crime in Beslan, President Putin has announced plans to further centralize power and to push through measures that will take Russia a step closer to authoritarian regime.
We are also worried about the deteriorating conduct of Russia in its foreign relations. President Putin's foreign policy is increasingly marked by a threatening attitude towards Russia's neighbors and Europe's energy security, the return of rhetoric of militarism and empire, and by a refusal to comply with Russia's international treaty obligations. In all aspects of Russian political life, the instruments of state power appear to be being rebuilt and the dominance of the security services to grow. We believe that this conduct cannot be accepted as the foundation of a true partnership between Russia and the democracies of NATO and the European Union.
These moves are only the latest evidence that the present Russian leadership is breaking away from the core democratic values of the Euro-Atlantic community. All too often in the past, the West has remained silent and restrained its criticism in the belief that President Putin's steps in the wrong direction were temporary and the hope that Russia would soon return to a democratic and pro-Western path. Western leaders continue to embrace President Putin in the face of growing evidence that the country is moving in the wrong direction and that his strategy for fighting terrorism is producing less and less freedom. We firmly believe dictatorship will not and cannot be the answer to Russia's problems and the very real threats it faces.
The leaders of the West must recognize that our current strategy towards Russia is failing. Our policies have failed to contribute to the democratic Russia we wished for and the people of this great country deserve after all the suffering they have endured. It is time for us to rethink how and to what extent we engage with Putin's Russia and to put ourselves unambiguously on the side of democratic forces in Russia. At this critical time in history when the West is pushing for democratic change around the world, including in the broader Middle East, it is imperative that we do not look the other way in assessing Moscow's behavior or create a double standard for democracy in the countries which lie to Europe's East. We must speak the truth about what is happening in Russia. We owe it to the victims of Beslan and the tens of thousands of Russian democrats who are still fighting to preserve democracy and human freedom in their country.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/an-open-letter-to-the-heads-of-state-and-government-of-the-european-union-and-nato/228041.html
Pretty accurate to say that in 2004. Other signatories included Madeleine Albright, Joe Biden, Vaclav Havel and Glenys Kinnock. It had plenty of PNAC people on it, but plenty of left wingers too. Being anti-Putin is not a sign of being neoliberal.
Is it your contention that Putin should be allowed to take over eastern Ukraine without any resistance? Is that why you posted the article saying that Putin's offence needs to be stopped with weapons?
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As opposed to Corporate McPravda that helped lie America into illegal wars of aggression?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#65
Pilger claims President Obama spent $5 billion in 2014 to finance a coup in Ukraine.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#78
Where in the OP is that stated? I'm scrolling through until my eyes cross and I'm not finding it
Autumn
Mar 2015
#81
Explain the 'democracy building' we are doing in Ukraine for all that money. We did the same thing
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#141
The bottom line here is that Pilger lied regarding the $5 billion figure, and you can't escape that.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#149
What happened to the Orange Revolution and all that democracy building and how much did we
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#185
Pilger didn't need to 'want me' to believe anything. We poured money into Iraq, into Ukraine
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#310
Telling me to shut up makes you sound like some kind of nutty authority, uhnope.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#68
That's your opinion. Pilger has enormous credibility around the world. Maybe that is why
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#146
Why smear me? Nothing to say about Fascism in the USA? I'd add, 'Huh?' but, you know.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#10
Pilger's against the fascists that he wants to be against. But he's okay with the other fascists.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#27
Just keep telling the truth Octafish. A lot of people hate freedom of the press.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#38
Seeing as how your OP and one of your replies in this thread contain pictures
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#136
Yugoslavia was a model for the future world. Nothing commie about putting people over war profits.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#6
I've noticed that also. And wonder why anyone here would be upset about the truth
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#40
The reason goes back asking Poppy Bush: why he was in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#73
Why didn't he report that earlier? That's a good question. I can think of a few reasons why
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#101
So, you can't find where I lied. That's different, isn't it? That's called a smear.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#20
If they're documentable lies, then by all means DOCUMENT THEM with some links.
Maedhros
Mar 2015
#35
I've asked the same question. But still have not received the documentation that supposedly exists.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#47
So Virginia Nuland was the one lying then, and Pilger was merely giving her credit for telling the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#55
Regardless of what "Virginia" Nuland said, the issue has been researched and Pilger's lying.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#58
So neocon, Virginia Nuland lied? Someone is lying, that's for sure, and generally speaking when a
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#61
As far as I know, "Virginia" Nuland appears to be correct in her assertion. Pilger is lying.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#63
Virginia Nuland is a neocon, married to a neocon. I despise Neocons. They lie, they lied us into a
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#67
Why are you talking about "Virginia" Nuland? We're talking about John Pilger lying. Read his quote.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#70
It is precisely the point. You argue relentlessly that Pilger is a liar, Tommy_Carcetti.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#79
Are you admitting that Pilger lied when he claimed Obama spent $5 billion on a "coup" in Ukraine?
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#84
We don't know, do we? It's classified Top Secret. Along with a lot more information we should know.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#89
Yes, and neocons are suddenly popular here, AND 'truthful'! She was caught planning the coup
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#100
You don't want us to talk about the neocons who were over there plotting for AFTER the Coup
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#96
From 2011: Goldman Sachs Is So Desperate To Get Into Ukraine It's Advising The Government For FREE
Octafish
Mar 2015
#105
I posted FACTS. Not lies. Facts you claim are TRUE. That neocon Victoria Nuland boasted that the US
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#139
Pilger claimed President Obama spent $5 billion in 2014 to overthrow the Ukrainian government.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#154
If anyone ever needed this whole argument summed up in a nutshell, there it is.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#186
I agree with that. Virginia, yes there is a Santa Claus, Nuland's involvement in the pre-coup is
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#209
Considering you again have refused to at least acknowledge the facts I just stated, you
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#212
And coincidentally, she got what she wanted. And even considered what to do about the Neo Nazis
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#260
I'm glad you brought that up.. 'Things May Have Gotten Worse in Ukraine for the LGBT Community'
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#258
And you're getting this impression that LGBT allies don't care about the Ukrainian LGBT community...
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#263
Stop it! I did not try to use this issue, I responded to Zappaman's attempt to use it. Do NOT
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#269
Do you support the US funding Ukraine, where 80% of the population opposes Gay Rights?
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#285
You are defending the use of Gay Rights as a political football? Ignoring Ukraine's 80% opposition
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#280
Now you are simply rambling. You support the US funding of Ukraine. You jumped in on the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#286
You supported someone who used the despicable tactic of using the rights of persecuted minorities
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#288
Do you support the funding of an almost totally anti-Gay rights Ukraine by the US?
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#291
You support Ukraine, a nation where 80% of the population opposes Gay Rights.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#292
Criticizing a professional debunker is not homophobic. Amazing Randi is undemocratic.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#235
Science and reality aren't democratic. You don't get to vote on what's true or not.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#236
Amazing Randi smeared Rupert Sheldrake. Amazing Randi broke US immigration law.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#238
I literally have no idea where you are going with this or how it's relevant to our discussion. nt
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#281
Would you like links to all the homophobes and anti-Semites you promote on DU?
zappaman
Mar 2015
#268
Why smear me over what Mearsheimer wrote? Take it out on him. That's the Fascist thing to do.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#277
What lies did Pilger tell? Could you link to them with documentation? You did say they
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#41
If you paste together a narrative of lies, such as the one I've pointed out on the Pilger piece...
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#124
Except you don't show he's any of that. So, all you got is a smear, zappaman.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#137
Its not an insult to point out how you like posting articles from anti-Semites and homophobes.
zappaman
Mar 2015
#170
You know, at this point I'm thinking you are some Andy Kauffman-esqe caricature....
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#166
Do I have to spell it out for you? The people who tried to overthrow FDR in 1933 had kids.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#183
"Mearsheimer is an expert in the field of international relations." And an anti-Semite.
zappaman
Mar 2015
#172
If they are waking up, we can expect a lot more flagwaving and scary bogeymen to appear
Tierra_y_Libertad
Mar 2015
#18
I read this article last year and was wondering what it was about, thanks for the info.
Rex
Mar 2015
#16
Yes now they are on their 5th president in Ukraine. Another RWing crook it appears.
Rex
Mar 2015
#28
So you are okay with the 5th president being a RWing criminal, thanks that was what i wanted to know
Rex
Mar 2015
#36
It is amusing, just to defend their pony people here will defend RWing leaders in other countries.
Rex
Mar 2015
#32
There really is no way to deny the neo-Nazi elements in the Ukraine government. So the default
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#44
Would you like to see the photos of all the world leaders who were posing with and making deals with
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#57
Oh it wasn't WE who 'white-washed all these Dictators, it was our LEADERS. So go talk to THEM.
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#99
Who liked Gadaffi? Bishop Tutu for one, and Mandela. Both referred to him as a 'brother' for the
sabrina 1
Mar 2015
#143
Good and Evil....Its often in the eye of the beholder and people are complicated....
KoKo
Mar 2015
#244
Which of course totally justifies turning Libya into a shithole full of squabbling warlords n/t
eridani
Mar 2015
#225
Thanks. I will check that out. The most under-referenced liberal intellectual of my lifetime
Doctor_J
Mar 2015
#131
He's entitled to his opinion. Do you think the United States is entitled to kill innocent people?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#109
I'm sorry, Prescott Bush has something to do with Putin's war of aggression...how?
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#193
Prescott's ancestors are still on the Bridge of the Ship of State, making Big Bucks off War.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#197
His son, George Herbert Walker Bush, and grandson, George Walker Bush, both lied America into war.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#199
So, of course then President Obama paid $5 billlion in 2014 for a "coup" in Ukraine!
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#200
Because secret government is secret? Ask PNAC Robert Kagan's wife, Victoria Nuland.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#273
Why do you spread disinformation, Tommy_Carcetti? Is it some sort of sick game for you?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#298
Someone clearly hasn't been reading all the responses to his own posts here. nt
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#299
What I can hang on you, Octafish, is that you posted a piece with blatant misinformation.
Tommy_Carcetti
Mar 2015
#301
What disinformation did I post? Where I said you posted her name wrong when you didn't?
Octafish
Mar 2015
#303
Thanks for posting Octafish. Pleased to see the number of 'recs' your OP is receiving.
Purveyor
Mar 2015
#128
Remember who Uncle Sam hired for the secret government: the Mafia and the NAZIs.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#222
I think all the U.S. government / Obama apologists here prove that America is indeed a fascist state
AZ Progressive
Mar 2015
#145
Democrats believe in Democracy for everyone. It's genetic. Same for Fascism. You can just tell.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#204
Which makes him out to be PNAC chums with Robert Kagan, husband, coincidentally, of Victoria Nuland.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#243
PNAC is attempting to force US into arming Ukraine in a hoped-for war with Russia.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#247
PNAC ''Chums'' is a bad word on my part. Sorry. PNAC "Co-conspirators" would be more accurate.
Octafish
Mar 2015
#252
No, I'm hoping you'd maybe realize how hurtful and derogatory a word like r******* is.
NuclearDem
Mar 2015
#330
CIA manual Urged Rebels to Assassinate Their Own In Order to Create “Martyrs”
Ichingcarpenter
Mar 2015
#284
Russia's actions in Ukraine conflict an 'invasion', says US official Victoria Nuland
Octafish
Mar 2015
#314