General Discussion

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)

33. I think it's up to the victims, those who survived, to forgive, not up to people

Sat Mar 7, 2015, 11:49 AM

Mar 2015

who did not lose their daughters, or see them raped and murdered, or their babies, blown to bits or burned to death by WP, or sons maimed for life, or gone by suicide.

Or the 4 million Iraqi refugees still living in refugee camps in Jordan and Syria, now being driven out of Syria also by the terrorists who are destabilizing another ME country.

What I want all those victims to know if possible, is that this may have been done in our name, but many of us condemned it then and still do. And will never condone it.

If Sen. Byrd was able to see what the horrific consequences of such an invasion would be for the Iraqi people, AND for US troops, and if we could foresee it, anyone who didn't does not belong in a position where they might need to be 'forgiven' ever again.

Libya was a nation with one of the highest standards of living in Africa before 'we came, saw and he died'.

Now it is a tragic, brutal, wasteland, with brutal criminal, marauding gangs roaming the country, murdering, robbing and torturing civilians.

The people who are angry at Gadaffi were the Al Queda terrorists who WE asked him to contain.

He was fine until he decided to change Libya's oil currency in order to benefit Africa, especially Libya, and when he decided to create an African NATO to try to prevent Imperial Colonialism after centuries of brutal domination by various Western Empires, from happening again.

As for Hillary's hinting we had something to do with the war crime that was Gadaffi's death, Madella and especially Bishop Tutu were shocked and 'saddened' by that statement about someone who THEY viewed as a 'brother'.

What is NATO doing now about those civilians they claimed to care so much about btw?

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I never, ever thought I'd see the day [View all] MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 OP

Because there isn't marym625 Mar 2015 #1

WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam Wars were all declared under Democratic presidents :( BP2 Mar 2015 #137

Why was that? SCVDem Mar 2015 #162

No, Republican policy failures did not cause any one of those wars. former9thward Mar 2015 #192

Vietnam certainly was. hifiguy Mar 2015 #216

The Dulles brothers are singularly obnoxious, but one can also point a finger at KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #345

Good post, thank you. The only thing we can hope for is that the US is going through a very sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #420

World Wars I and II were.......... mrmpa Mar 2015 #171

Which means what? former9thward Mar 2015 #190

Oh yes they were wars........ mrmpa Mar 2015 #217

The Chinese sent 700,000 troops into the war. former9thward Mar 2015 #226

My Dad told me......... mrmpa Mar 2015 #231

Yes, an almost forgotten war. former9thward Mar 2015 #267

+1 BeanMusical Mar 2015 #375

Good point. Major Hogwash Mar 2015 #337

The UN didn't exist at the start of either World War. Ken Burch Mar 2015 #389

Read that again, Ken. Major Hogwash Mar 2015 #414

Here's the way you phrased it: Ken Burch Mar 2015 #421

I would have supported the first three wars in a NY minute DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #279

After Pearl Harbor, FDR didn't have a lot of choice in asking Congress for a declaration of war dflprincess Mar 2015 #322

Technical note: Eisenhower sent the first U.S. military advisors to Vietnam in the 50s, following KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #343

Bingo! The first US deaths in Vietnam were under Eisenhower. B Calm Mar 2015 #388

Not to be unduly persnickety, but the very first U.S. death in Viet Nam came KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #401

Ho Chi Minh, who had once washed dishes on Staten Island, Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #413

In '45, when he addressed the masses in Hanoi following the Viet Minh's KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #435

I saw Hue in March 1968, less than 2 months after Tet. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #438

I think you meant to write "I saw Hue in March 1968 . . . ," based on KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #440

Thanks. Yes, I meant Hue. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #441

Were they based on lies put forth by the administration? cui bono Mar 2015 #378

WWII marym625 Mar 2015 #387

Didn't you get the pragmatic message? We have to kiss 1% ass to get campaign funding. L0oniX Mar 2015 #332

I got the message marym625 Mar 2015 #334

"Money doesn't talk it screams", B.Dylan drynberg Mar 2015 #381

my absolute favorite song. ever. marym625 Mar 2015 #385

It's not a gray area for me. LWolf Mar 2015 #2

DU Rec^ RiverLover Mar 2015 #9

I feel like we're in some marym625 Mar 2015 #19

"neo-liberal policies": Did I miss the invention of this phrase during my absence? Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #27

I apparently missed your absence, lol. LWolf Mar 2015 #63

neo-liberalism started 85 years ago? I love oxymorons. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #68

why the snark? the other poster is correct and i see no point to your posts ND-Dem Mar 2015 #83

Why the snark? Did you read what you posted? Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #143

if that is your criticism, it would have been clearer to address it directly rather than question ND-Dem Mar 2015 #150

For the love of God Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #155

You're exceptionally abrasive. Maedhros Mar 2015 #326

Why stop now? You're doing such a good job of not being "divisive". cui bono Mar 2015 #380

What do you mean by 'separating themselves' it's a MAJORITY of DUers not a 'certain segment' sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #444

A lot of DUers spend a lot of time trying to categorize others as impure. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #445

It's been around for decades. Marr Mar 2015 #126

"until you have at least some vague idea of what it is that you're mocking." Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #131

Just use 'Third Way', it's more 'modern'. And if you need any information on who they are and sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #422

Did you miss much? Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #79

No. LWolf Mar 2015 #128

Yeah, shit. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #132

I'd like to be on that list. BrotherIvan Mar 2015 #177

I'm not sure you understand how it works. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #180

How your ignore works? BrotherIvan Mar 2015 #219

.. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #228

I'd be honored. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #210

you've never heard of the term neo liberal before? Doctor_J Mar 2015 #207

+100 these days, "progressive" = support for individual rights (gay/black/hispanic/women) and ND-Dem Mar 2015 #74

I suspect that PoC, women, and the LGBT community ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #398

There is no income inequality juggernaut. And few people at DU talk about class in the economic ND-Dem Mar 2015 #406

...^ that 840high Mar 2015 #106

But they -DO- support those issues... nonsupport is "limited" and ALWAYS pragmatic HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #138

Yep. nt LWolf Mar 2015 #152

Walter Benn Michaels has their number: friendly_iconoclast Mar 2015 #318

That's an interesting read...I'm not trained in economics so HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #328

I used to live in Wellesley, Massachusetts, a wealthy town friendly_iconoclast Mar 2015 #335

Checking in here from northern Newton MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #350

+1 You nailed it. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #392

I am do not excuse it but I am capable of forgiving that vote. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #3

And this? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #5

I am not going to cry for the man. He was a dictator. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #6

Do you know what Libya's turned into since his death? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #10

The people on the ground were rebbelling and we helped them. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #15

*which* people on the ground? *why* was the country falling apart? we certainly did a ND-Dem Mar 2015 #86

Yes we had a hand in it but the locaks were rising up against their goverment. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #96

blanket statement about "the locals" doesn't = "fact" ND-Dem Mar 2015 #211

That is fair. We don't exactly know who they all were. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #214

Which 'people on the ground'? The ones who have been terrorizing civilians now for several years? sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #139

Who are the war criminals here? hrmjustin Mar 2015 #148

Yes, who are they? How many civilians were killed by NATO bombs in Libya? Do you know? sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #159

I am asking you here, who are the war criminals? hrmjustin Mar 2015 #161

I am asking YOU who the protesters were? You are supporting what happened in Libya, but don't sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #172

I never claimed to support anything. I said I was not going to cry over it. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #174

I'll do the crying then for the innocent who are being murdered and tortured. You don't have to. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #178

My opinion doesn't have to matter to you but it does for me. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #179

Our Western opinions of African nations, yours or mine, do not matter to African nations. Which was sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #184

I am all for them making their own choices. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #185

It's really none of our business. We have no rights in Africa, we are not in a position to 'allow sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #276

How about the Iraqi people? think Mar 2015 #14

The Iraqi people will suffer from that horrible war and that is tragic but I am still voting for hrmjustin Mar 2015 #16

the price was worth it, eh? ND-Dem Mar 2015 #90

Did I say it was? No. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #97

How do you know that already? You don't even know who else is going to be running? cui bono Mar 2015 #382

My mind is made up and if she runs she has my vote. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #400

Hm. I hope you would reconsider having your mind made up already. cui bono Mar 2015 #432

I will listen to the others but my vote is with Hillary. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #433

Funny thing about dictators... MrMickeysMom Mar 2015 #42

ok. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #43

So you are saying that getting rid of Saddam was worth the betrayal of Americans rhett o rick Mar 2015 #73

Where did I say it was a good idea to get rid of Saddam? hrmjustin Mar 2015 #89

"also probably brought on the death of the Great American Middle Class" = indeed ND-Dem Mar 2015 #93

+1000 marym625 Mar 2015 #100

Manny I gave her a pass on her IWR vote. I have always liked her laugh. But that? Autumn Mar 2015 #13

It goes to show us we don't really know them. zeemike Mar 2015 #50

thank u ellennelle Mar 2015 #82

means that she does not belong anywhere near a position of power. Agony Mar 2015 #298

I think it's up to the victims, those who survived, to forgive, not up to people sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #33

I lost my cousin in the war so I have standing to forgive thank you. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #34

I am sorry for the death of your cousin. And even if everyone were to forgive those responsible for sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #85

Thats your opinion and it is principled but I think we do have standing to forgive. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #92

What do you mean when you say you "have standing to forgive"? sammythecat Mar 2015 #291

No. I was making a point to the poster who said only the victims of the war have standing to forgive hrmjustin Mar 2015 #292

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with what you just said. n/t sammythecat Mar 2015 #300

Thanks. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #305

+1 zeemike Mar 2015 #59

I don't see it as a matter of forgiveness. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #84

It is perfectly reasonable to question her vote. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #94

"best predictor of future behavior is past behavior." BumRushDaShow Mar 2015 #390

Certainly. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #410

Of course you will not. nt Logical Mar 2015 #238

No I won't hold it against her. My right. n/t. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #241

And my right to think you are a hypocrite. nt Logical Mar 2015 #243

Please explain how I am a hypocrite. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #247

Like you said "It's my right". nt Logical Mar 2015 #251

Can you back it up or are you just here to call me names? hrmjustin Mar 2015 #252

Well are you going to back it up? hrmjustin Mar 2015 #255

"It my right" is all I heard from you. nt Logical Mar 2015 #286

I always respected your opinion here. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #288

OK, I am wrong here....... Logical Mar 2015 #294

Accepted and I think she will have to answer for her vote. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #297

It is not your right to insult other members BainsBane Mar 2015 #319

+very large number betsuni Mar 2015 #360

Who are 'you people'. I want to know if I am one of them so I can correct that statement IF I am one sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #426

There is no question in my mind that you are a unique individual. BainsBane Mar 2015 #430

Will you forgive an attack on Iran? OnyxCollie Mar 2015 #310

To further your "aside"... it actually says "would *be able to* totally obliterate them, not cui bono Mar 2015 #383

Thanks. OnyxCollie Mar 2015 #408

That's okay. I do resent the fact that you made me defend Hillary though. cui bono Mar 2015 #431

Did you vote for Kerry? leftofcool Mar 2015 #4

Not in the primary. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #11

What about in the general election Andy823 Mar 2015 #142

Of course. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #158

And if one didn't vote for Kerry then they SUPPORTED BUSH! No matter how one voted think Mar 2015 #12

^^^Yes, this!^^^ joshdawg Mar 2015 #25

And if one did vote for Kerry obviously they were hypocrites that supported the war. think Mar 2015 #29

lots of us were against Kerry before we were for him, before we were against him HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #165

Ha ha ha! Major Hogwash Mar 2015 #339

But I -was- a Dean supporter...but now I'm not HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #341

+1 uponit7771 Mar 2015 #213

Is that your argument / rational for voting for HRC? We can do better than rhett o rick Mar 2015 #77

I just can't rec this post enough. Scuba Mar 2015 #7

Let me help out with another K & R L0oniX Mar 2015 #336

It was neither staggering stupidity nor staggering malevolence tularetom Mar 2015 #8

Isn't that the same thing? marym625 Mar 2015 #39

I seriously disagree. HRC is not a coward. rhett o rick Mar 2015 #103

Yeah something did compel her to betray the Democrats tularetom Mar 2015 #122

She sold out. Period. ReRe Mar 2015 #124

Bingo, in three words. nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #129

she didn't sell out. she's always been a goldwater girl on the essentials. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #223

I guess I had my... ReRe Mar 2015 #266

No gray here. 99Forever Mar 2015 #17

Anyone that voted for the continued use of cluster bombs in civilian areas Mnpaul Mar 2015 #134

+1,000s (n/t) bread_and_roses Mar 2015 #391

Due to lies from the Bush administration. JaneyVee Mar 2015 #18

Already covered in Manny's OP. woo me with science Mar 2015 #293

About any area is gray when one is openly dedicated to being amoral as SOP. TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #20

Wow. That's quite a declaration. "Amoral"? "Sick mentality"? Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #23

you subscribe to 'winning is the only thing' i take it? ND-Dem Mar 2015 #115

You take it wrong. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #229

"It" isn't mine to rein in, I'm just calling them as I seem them. TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #206

You're incapable of reining in your emotions? Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #230

What emotion? You haven't seen my personal editorial, that was observation. TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #234

I see. So you have declared as FACT that Hillary is amoral and possesses a sick mentality. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #235

Because isn't the worst Democrat... SHRED Mar 2015 #21

No FBaggins Mar 2015 #75

Such a great and new point! No one ever brought this up before. Ever!!! Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #22

seriously? marym625 Mar 2015 #26

"This cannot be brought up enough." No shit! Endlessly, apparently. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #30

Addressing your second point: Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #37

Thank you marym625 Mar 2015 #41

The only Democrat who ever GOT ELECTED president didn't vote for the war tularetom Mar 2015 #135

uh, yeah. Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #146

I appears that we now have perpetual war. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #24

Fortunately you are not the arbiter of what is acceptable or not OKNancy Mar 2015 #28

except we all knew that the WMD bullshit marym625 Mar 2015 #45

+1,000,000 roody Mar 2015 #57

wow! that's a whole bunch! marym625 Mar 2015 #62

If we knew it was crap, They� certainly knew it was crap. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #394

Hey, jesus didn't just show up marym625 Mar 2015 #395

I can see what you say is true. Amen. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #396

jesus bless you. and cheese sandwiches for you! marym625 Mar 2015 #397

Actually, each one of us as individuals BubbaFett Mar 2015 #69

LOL - so we aren't decent folk... OKNancy Mar 2015 #72

If you support someone BubbaFett Mar 2015 #81

I have no problem with my decency. Perhaps someone should not sit in judgment OKNancy Mar 2015 #87

There should have been demands made before that vote Mnpaul Mar 2015 #166

LOL, so war is OK if she thinks it was justified at the time! LOL, classic! nt Logical Mar 2015 #240

We all knew it was lies while it was happening. And she had a lot more information than we did. cui bono Mar 2015 #384

And I never thought I'd see the day... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #31

Some things are fundamentally inexcusable BubbaFett Mar 2015 #40

OK, so whatcha gonna do if she's the candidate? Go... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #52

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #56

"The perfect is the enemy of the good." Just remember that should... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #60

well BubbaFett Mar 2015 #61

I think many here don't realize that Mnpaul Mar 2015 #154

that might apply if there were some significant good to point to. but what we get is ND-Dem Mar 2015 #109

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #95

+10,000 Where's the positive movement to inspire people, especially young people, to change ND-Dem Mar 2015 #104

Actually, I rather agree with that hidden post you're replying to... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #218

I agree; the ptb are forced to concede something to their serfs in times of crisis. crisis from ND-Dem Mar 2015 #221

+10,000 to your post, too. Efilroft Sul Mar 2015 #236

Hear! Hear! ReRe Mar 2015 #145

First, let's make sure she's not the candidate. n/t Martin Eden Mar 2015 #290

+1... SidDithers Mar 2015 #51

Of course it was alerted... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #53

Did Manny vote for an International War Crime Atrocity? BubbaFett Mar 2015 #65

Oh, floating around here somewhere is a post explaining that... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #220

Wait... what? Number23 Mar 2015 #270

here... TreasonousBastard Mar 2015 #373

So no matter what a Dem does - they 840high Mar 2015 #111

Between 100,000 and 500,000 casualties from the Iraq war they signed on to. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #32

Betwen 100,000 and 500,000 BubbaFett Mar 2015 #38

Exactly. Sacrificed for the political ambitions of those who want to "lead" the nation. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #46

Not if you come from decent folk BubbaFett Mar 2015 #48

Yeah, and we must look forward, not backward and all that crap. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #379

Iraq War vote BubbaFett Mar 2015 #35

The "real" Democratic Party became history when those evil genius Republicans changed our world wide wally Mar 2015 #36

I cannot excuse John Doe MyNameGoesHere Mar 2015 #44

Now you know why you were not put in charge of defining,,, Cryptoad Mar 2015 #47

Russ Feingold voted to confirm John Roberts for the Supreme Court OKNancy Mar 2015 #67

Did you support the Iraq War? sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #141

no Cryptoad Mar 2015 #167

In which case your judgement was better than some of our elected officials. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #170

Well said LittleBlue Mar 2015 #199

DU's high priest of liberalism has spoken! JoePhilly Mar 2015 #49

+1 n/t Alkene Mar 2015 #54

It showed incredibly poor judgment on a matter of foreign policy to neverforget Mar 2015 #55

It just shows the "Win, win, always play to win" ethos of the careerist plutocrat BubbaFett Mar 2015 #70

Why did Kerry concede so rapidly to Bush? roody Mar 2015 #58

Skull & Bones... He could not refuse. Kip Humphrey Mar 2015 #88

They're ALL fucking multi-millionaires. They have no connection to regular people. Atman Mar 2015 #64

I was alive when there were plenty of people around BubbaFett Mar 2015 #66

+100 ND-Dem Mar 2015 #121

Please allow F. Scott Fitzgerald to explain: KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #362

And a vote for Reagan was a vote for trickle-down economics and screwing AIDs victims. Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #71

Equating voting for a Republican president with voting to send America to war based on lies? think Mar 2015 #78

Pretending that being a full tilt Republican starting with Nixon and running past Bush 41 is 'voting Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #191

there's a difference druidity33 Mar 2015 #405

Point made. F4lconF16 Mar 2015 #102

Has she? Reagan was a Supply Side monster, a racist who actively supported aparthied following Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #188

This is a most righteous jeremiad. I think you and I may have had our differences in the KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #363

Apparently some here feel voting for the Iraq war no was is no big deal think Mar 2015 #76

Well, I excuse nothing. I vote in presidential elections MineralMan Mar 2015 #80

Are there any candidates for the WH right now? sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #99

There are some apparent candidates, yes. MineralMan Mar 2015 #140

Then your judgement was better than that of those who did support it. Since there are no declared sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #149

I think I can assure you that some who voted for that war MineralMan Mar 2015 #157

And as always, those who voted for that war will not win. So if Dems want to win, they need to find sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #272

Here you go marym625 Mar 2015 #194

Thanks, and I would add Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders. Warren too if she wants to run. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #351

no, a few have. no one good but it's starting marym625 Mar 2015 #354

Sorry Manny but we've all been assimilated. It doesn't hurt really. Rex Mar 2015 #91

Anti-war has never really been high on the Democratic Party's list ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #98

Will Pitt's spirited defense of John Kerry's vote for the IWR wyldwolf Mar 2015 #101

Most excellent post aikoaiko Mar 2015 #105

How? Hissyspit Mar 2015 #263

Memories..... msanthrope Mar 2015 #264

I love Will Pitt MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #112

Is he a 'progressive Democrat?" wyldwolf Mar 2015 #116

Based on Will's post a few days ago, MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #120

Which proves my point. He held Kerry to different standard. Wonder why? wyldwolf Mar 2015 #125

Or he's evolved on the issue. MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #127

Had no problem with Biden less than 3 years ago. Hmmm... wyldwolf Mar 2015 #130

Did he have a problem with Hillary's vote in 2008? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #144

To clarify my previously post MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #151

You're finding it difficult to reconcile your OP with Will Pitt's words. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #181

Whoa. Let's focus. MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #197

Nope. Just of using a different standard on Clinton... wyldwolf Mar 2015 #205

Then your pants are on fire. MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #208

Is he a 'progressive democrat?' wyldwolf Mar 2015 #227

Your pants are on fire, and MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #232

Your pants are on fire and tell us... wyldwolf Mar 2015 #233

You accused Will Pitt of misogyny MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #237

No I didn't. I said he held Clinton to a different standard than he did three men wyldwolf Mar 2015 #239

So what makes you a 'progressive democrat' and not Will? wyldwolf Mar 2015 #242

I said he is a progressive Democrat MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #246

according to the logic in your OP, Will Pitt isn't a 'progressive democrat" wyldwolf Mar 2015 #250

since most who oppose hrc right now favor Warren, your misogyny claims fail the laugh Doctor_J Mar 2015 #253

Your attempt at smearing to divert the point is typical. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #254

your "point" is to taint all criticism of Hillary by calling all critics anti-woman. I pointed out Doctor_J Mar 2015 #256

Really? You have links to back that charge? No, you don't wyldwolf Mar 2015 #257

errr, Manny has a link about three posts up from here, and one of your posts right in Doctor_J Mar 2015 #311

errr, no he doesn't. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #312

This message was self-deleted by its author wyldwolf Mar 2015 #209

Ok I just read the whole thing, and it didn't strike me as a spirited defense. Hissyspit Mar 2015 #262

yeah, you did miss something wyldwolf Mar 2015 #265

Yeah, I don't agree. Maybe I'm wrong. Hissyspit Mar 2015 #269

Kerry was fooled? Martin Eden Mar 2015 #296

Sorry but that's all bunk. When they signed it, are they saying they trusted Bush not to go to war? rhett o rick Mar 2015 #309

Methinks you gave someone a sad - Jury results Lancero Mar 2015 #331

replying just so I can refer back. nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #462

Feels like ancient history aikoaiko Mar 2015 #107

Ancient history features only dead people. Martin Eden Mar 2015 #301

I shudder to think of how much war we'll get, KMOD Mar 2015 #108

wasn't that what Qadima figured in Lebanon? start a war so the warmongering Likud MisterP Mar 2015 #169

" I never, ever thought I'd see the day..." DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #110

I'll raise my glass to that libodem Mar 2015 #113

Because any Democrat is better than a Republican PedXing Mar 2015 #114

How is a Democrat who votes as a republican better than a republican? Autumn Mar 2015 #153

I'm not sure. PedXing Mar 2015 #386

Is there is no gray area Manny. And no one who contributed to that massive war crime, whether out of sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #117

In 2008 a whole lot of progressves round here were singing praises for John Edwards Tom Rinaldo Mar 2015 #118

+1. I suspect a lot who are saying they were against it and "knew it was a lie," really didn't. Hoyt Mar 2015 #283

Okies I've replied in all three 'never see' threads, so no jury duty for me! Rex Mar 2015 #119

I saw that day, it was July 29th 2004 in Boston, when Democrats named Yes voters John Kerry Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #123

a little quibble with that description... ND-Dem Mar 2015 #136

I did not say he was 'the sole co-sponsor' just that he was what he was, an origninal co-sponsor Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #160

because your version makes it sound like he stood alone as cosponsor. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #163

No it does not. He was the very first Democrat to co-sponsor the Senate version, original co-sponsor Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #173

in his hypocrisy not much different from most politicians. just paid by a different faction. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #175

And yet he was given a pass on the IWR vote twice, once as VP nom and second as candidate Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #182

everyone was getting a pass in those days. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #198

I gave any Democrat who ran against Bush a pass at that time. I would have given the devil Autumn Mar 2015 #204

Well gee Manny, LBJ expanded a bloody war in Viet Nam, yet the social programs and civil rights act still_one Mar 2015 #133

+1 Buzz Clik Mar 2015 #147

Lots of things are gray MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #156

Actually it would have been a third term technically Manny, and we will never know if he would or still_one Mar 2015 #168

i've read that lbj was actually trying to wind down the war & got rat-fucked, but i can't ND-Dem Mar 2015 #176

That would be interesting. No evidence of that was mentioned in "The Fog Of War". Thanks still_one Mar 2015 #200

mcnamara had a vested interest in blaming johnson for all ND-Dem Mar 2015 #201

LBJ couldn't publicly blow the whistle on Nixon b/c, to do so, LBJ would have KingCharlemagne Mar 2015 #368

pretending to be morally pure. stonecutter357 Mar 2015 #164

I have seldom seen an idividual get so thoroughly clowned in their own thread as in this one Number23 Mar 2015 #274

The difference between this thread and others by the OP is... wyldwolf Mar 2015 #278

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #281

well put. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #282

Since no one is to be forgiven treestar Mar 2015 #183

Forgiving is fine MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #186

But that of course does not apply to selfishly advocating horrible economic policies in a right wing Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #193

More of your "Warren murdered milions" froth MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #196

Gosh, you put quote marks around and attibute to me something I most certainly never said and Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #203

Clearly, you don't understand all the functions of quotation marks MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #287

In other words, you got nothin' leftofcool Mar 2015 #307

HELL of a point. And that goes for the OP as well as his (current) favorite politician Number23 Mar 2015 #275

He's got too many 'personas' for anyone to actually know who his favorite politicians are. emulatorloo Mar 2015 #304

I want to go on record here to say I think your... one_voice Mar 2015 #325

160 recommendations. MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #353

And that's what's it's all about, yes? zappaman Mar 2015 #359

That's not the *only* thing MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #361

They can't get the recs marym625 Mar 2015 #364

They can't get them up MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #370

Haha! marym625 Mar 2015 #371

we................ sheshe2 Mar 2015 #443

Ain't that the truth! sheshe2 Mar 2015 #442

UGH!!!! again. CONTEXT matters as well. FUCKING IDIOT GEORGEE MADE THAT VOTE POLITICAL! pansypoo53219 Mar 2015 #187

So why did most Congressional Democrats vote "no"? nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #189

probably cause most districts are 'safe'. senators are statewide. pansypoo53219 Mar 2015 #195

Politics 101 wyldwolf Mar 2015 #212

Voting for war instead of losing an election makes a lot of cents.... think Mar 2015 #215

Sacrifice some 18 year old American boys and a bunch of foreigners neverforget Mar 2015 #261

It's horrible but nevertheless true. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #268

Are you okay with that? neverforget Mar 2015 #271

No but it's nevertheless true. Politicians vote the way their constituencies would wyldwolf Mar 2015 #273

Sacrificing thousands of Americans is a small price to pay to win an election. neverforget Mar 2015 #284

Now, why ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #404

Clinton was not up for election that year dflprincess Mar 2015 #333

Because the war was not sanctioned by the UN, preemptive, and based on false claims? think Mar 2015 #202

Because they knew GWB was so full of shit it would tarnish their future careers? Rex Mar 2015 #324

So, they were suckered by Bush into voting for a war that killed hundreds of thousands? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #225

So it is his fault dems had no guts? nt Logical Mar 2015 #244

That VOTE was a GREAT OPPORTIUNITY for DEMOCRATS to show some LEADERSHIP Martin Eden Mar 2015 #303

K&R DeSwiss Mar 2015 #222

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #224

We always have been. Efilroft Sul Mar 2015 #248

So why are you a 'progressive democrat' and William Pitt isn't? wyldwolf Mar 2015 #245

Why did that Bosnian sniper shoot at Hillary? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #258

You OP logic says anyone who excuses the IWR vote can't join the 'progressive' club wyldwolf Mar 2015 #260

Is it just me? OilemFirchen Mar 2015 #313

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #314

I hereby declare this thread closed. OilemFirchen Mar 2015 #320

Ha ha ha!!! Major Hogwash Mar 2015 #347

It's a post and hide thing. Post and hide them. Drive them off the board. sheshe2 Mar 2015 #365

You got the alert. NutmegYankee Mar 2015 #409

Thank you NutmegYankee! sheshe2 Mar 2015 #424

This message was self-deleted by its author wyldwolf Mar 2015 #259

This message was self-deleted by its author wyldwolf Mar 2015 #249

An interesting essay on this subject n2doc Mar 2015 #277

It's like "waving the bloody shirt'' turned upside down./NT DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #285

A black mark has no shade of gray. Martin Eden Mar 2015 #302

I forgive you for your constant endeavor to divide and purge. great white snark Mar 2015 #280

Q: You don't buy the party unity argument? Fumesucker Mar 2015 #299

Just A Shameful Time Period colsohlibgal Mar 2015 #289

But...it's Hillary's turn, dammit!!!1! blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #295

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #306

+ a gadzillion leftofcool Mar 2015 #308

I like the part when she said... wyldwolf Mar 2015 #315

I'm shocked that was hidden. betsuni Mar 2015 #316

"It's all true." - that's why it was. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #317

That hide is a shocker, as it goes that one was rather mild. Autumn Mar 2015 #327

Not shocking at all. Hell...I once quoted Caddyshack to Manny and got a hide. msanthrope Mar 2015 #446

I'm more shocked that as a DUer and a "lawyer" you don't know that jurors Autumn Mar 2015 #447

Didn't another DUer contact a Host to complain? Care to share his name? msanthrope Mar 2015 #448

I'm not going off topic for you. Is there a difference in the terms hide and lock? Autumn Mar 2015 #449

So you are upset I conflated the terms, "hide" and "lock?" On the lock, did a DUer privately msanthrope Mar 2015 #450

I'm not upset at all. I simply responded to your post to me. Autumn Mar 2015 #451

I thank you Autumn....for a few things...... msanthrope Mar 2015 #454

As to 3) the letters were posted by the locking host. I have no idea who told you I posted the alert Autumn Mar 2015 #456

I never claimed you posted the letters....but thanks for confirming msanthrope Mar 2015 #457

Hosts do post DU mails involving alerts in the host thread, someone did tell you I posted the alert Autumn Mar 2015 #458

Oh--you posted the original alert, but you didn't post the PM sent from another source who did msanthrope Mar 2015 #460

Yes, so well written MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #349

Thank you ever so for your thoughtful and informative comment. betsuni Mar 2015 #352

You're welcome. MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #356

So if this thread were a movie, betsuni Mar 2015 #372

Of course he did, as usual. leftofcool Mar 2015 #330

What a pathetic, bullshit alert Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #344

Check out the sub thread above you....Nance was not hidden in vain. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #455

Yes Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #459

I thank you. Did you like how I referred to as a "lawyer?" nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #461

Selma...nt SidDithers Mar 2015 #321

Selma... sheshe2 Mar 2015 #355

Oh I expect there will be a lot more excusing BainsBane Mar 2015 #323

Not from me. [n/t] Maedhros Mar 2015 #329

Did you vote for Kerry in 2004? BainsBane Mar 2015 #340

For the record: Yes, and Yes (for Wyden and Merkley) Maedhros Mar 2015 #374

Of course you don't owe me an explanation BainsBane Mar 2015 #429

Maybe people have realized that their vote for Kerry may have compromised their ideals. Maedhros Mar 2015 #436

And she will leftofcool Mar 2015 #342

I expect so BainsBane Mar 2015 #348

Voting for military action against ISIS wouldn't be comparable to the AUMF in Iraq. Marr Mar 2015 #358

It starts already BainsBane Mar 2015 #366

I'm not sure that logic should be your go-to weapon in this battle. nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #369

This might piss off all the "right" people. L0oniX Mar 2015 #338

+1 marym625 Mar 2015 #376

+2 BeanMusical Mar 2015 #377

Why do you want to piss off all the "right" people? stonecutter357 Mar 2015 #393

You're welcome to cozy up to the oligarchy to win elections... L0oniX Mar 2015 #407

You are so pure. stonecutter357 Mar 2015 #411

+3 Octafish Mar 2015 #403

I suspect that Hillary herself regrets that vote whether she will actually say so totodeinhere Mar 2015 #346

We are paying for those votes now. JDPriestly Mar 2015 #357

Fish or chicken? Rex Mar 2015 #367

"Because there's not a dime's worth of difference between Al Gore and George Bush" greenman3610 Mar 2015 #399

1984 works. Octafish Mar 2015 #402

Yes, how shocking it must be for you, Jeff Rosenzweig Mar 2015 #412

I hear that some duck pintobean Mar 2015 #415

this thread caused two DUers to have posting privileges suspended. m-lekktor Mar 2015 #416

I read some of it early on pintobean Mar 2015 #417

i just happened to look at their profiles when i saw the hides m-lekktor Mar 2015 #418

The primary wars started early this cycle. pintobean Mar 2015 #423

So THAT is what the current meltdown is over! Rex Mar 2015 #425

Hillary supporters are lashing out at her critics! m-lekktor Mar 2015 #427

I dunno...this new attack by center-right wingers smacks of total desperation. Rex Mar 2015 #428

I wonder if their other eight hidden posts had anything to do with it? n/t QC Mar 2015 #437

I'm with you. I actually enjoy watching these types of threads because it shows how people always Township75 Mar 2015 #419

I guess I better rec this thread, otherwise I get a red check mark in crayon by the gatekeeper! Rex Mar 2015 #434

I never, ever thought I'd see the day Blue_Tires Mar 2015 #439

I never, ever thought I'd see the day One of the 99 Mar 2015 #452

Oh, come on Manny! After all, Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #453