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cali

(114,904 posts)

148. you said it all, and you said it so well.

Reply to MADem (Reply #137)

Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:12 AM

Mar 2015

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Why the hell is Alan Grayson going after his wife for bigamy? [View all] cali Mar 2015 OP

haven't followed this...is there something she is going after? HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #1

I don't know anything about this situation, but "custody" seems like an obvious possibility. n/t winter is coming Mar 2015 #2

These things often go tit for tat, HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #9

What a pity for their children... fadedrose Mar 2015 #122

I don't know Grayson's personality, I know his career from afar HereSince1628 Mar 2015 #124

A starting point for your research DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #4

seems the wife should just show her divorce and marriage papers wordpix Mar 2015 #46

She doesn't have any, and there are none filed. IdaBriggs Mar 2015 #271

Pride, maybe fadedrose Mar 2015 #120

He would prefer to be worth $30 million than $15 million? (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #3

If I had 30m I wouldn't miss 15m. I would be happy with the 15m Ihave./NT DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #7

That's the kind of attitude that explains why you don't have $30 million. bluedigger Mar 2015 #17

Ex-actly. nt PCIntern Mar 2015 #26

Really?...Are you trying to explain why whathehell Mar 2015 #77

No, I'll let you make that case. bluedigger Mar 2015 #83

That would be unwise since it's your statement, lol, whathehell Mar 2015 #99

The point is that not everyone WANTS to have $30 million. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #102

No biases here.. whathehell Mar 2015 #133

I certainly wouldn't mind having 15m... DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #202

I wouldn't mind having it either. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #205

Unless you are an elite athlete then you can make money hand over fist... DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #206

I don't have any talent in either direction. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #207

Me neither and yes, athletes pay a price DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #209

yes, it appears so. pretty despicable behavior. cali Mar 2015 #8

Seems like they've been messed up for a long time. elleng Mar 2015 #5

Because divorce brings out the ugliest side of people. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #6

that isn't invariably true. Plenty of people get divorced without "the ugly" cali Mar 2015 #10

not universally true, granted, but it's a very real phenomenon. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #11

Most people in the public light do their best to have an amiable divorce. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #14

Ted Kennedy was also extraordinarily gracious, even to his political opponents. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #16

I can't blame him for being pissed. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #12

He had 5 kids with her. 5. and how long has he known that she was supposedly cali Mar 2015 #13

Legally you're probably right. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #19

He's worth 30 million. He looks like a pig going after her in this way cali Mar 2015 #20

He's giving her a home and paying $2400... NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #25

2400 a month is pathetically little for 5 kids. cali Mar 2015 #33

Actually it's pretty good since he's also providing a house. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #34

No, it sure as hell isn't. And particularly when he's worth 30 million. cali Mar 2015 #42

how old are the kids from a 1990 marriage? wordpix Mar 2015 #47

As I understand it, only one is over 18. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #50

2400 is generous? yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #35

$2400 plus a home to live in. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #38

I know there was a home included yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #43

You think he should pay all of their expenses... NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #52

yes. I think he should pay so they all live in the manner in which they lived cali Mar 2015 #56

He's suing for custody, so the point might soon be moot. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #62

I don't think anyone should have the right to be supported "in the manner in which they lived". dawg Mar 2015 #100

Are you serious? yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #68

Then simply tell your kids "no" and move on NickB79 Mar 2015 #134

Lol. Today it is not that easy. yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #138

What makes it really different today? eShirl Mar 2015 #245

I have two kids of my own. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #157

For 5 kids? Okay "only" 4 if one is 18 (as if that's really the cutoff for expenses) MH1 Mar 2015 #65

Do you think they don't also get money from their dad? NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #159

A home with a failed septic system and shitwater running across the front walk, and running mold in MADem Mar 2015 #246

Per post 34, a free house is included. arcane1 Mar 2015 #39

My father divorced my mother after 39 years of marriage. We were all grown. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2015 #55

Just from what I read, his divorce lawyer found out that she was still married to that Nay Mar 2015 #21

I also read that he has not stopped supporting the family at this point. He needs to calm down and jwirr Mar 2015 #27

amazing Grayson's aide was there to tape it� and only got PARTIAL footage. KittyWampus Mar 2015 #79

Not amazing, I don't think; it was taped on purpose so there would be a record in Nay Mar 2015 #125

Isn't there a common law thingy to cover the length of this marriage fadedrose Mar 2015 #117

No, Florida has no common law statute. nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #128

Even if Fl had a comon law statute, it wouldn't aopoply if sdhe was committing bigamy. napi21 Mar 2015 #155

The kids will be taken care of. Ideally in the custody of the parent who isn't a batterer. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2015 #140

The kids are being hurt by the nasty shit he's tossing into the mix. cali Mar 2015 #168

I don't have time nor fredamae Mar 2015 #15

fair enough. I disagree. and I don't think this has anything to do with cali Mar 2015 #18

It seems like it would be really easy to prove one way or another. avebury Mar 2015 #22

I believe she says she divorced him in Guam. That might be harder to get paperwork from. Shrike47 Mar 2015 #24

Except I would hope that she would have been avebury Mar 2015 #28

She claims the Guam officials threw the paperwork away csziggy Mar 2015 #109

Again, she was stupid to have not kept a set of the papers at the avebury Mar 2015 #110

True - keep everything! Plus, how has she existed without those papers? csziggy Mar 2015 #123

+1 treestar Mar 2015 #264

If she was already divorced in Guam, why a second divorce four years after marrying Grayson? stevenleser Mar 2015 #129

Yep - either it was a total coincidence that a man named Robert A. Carson csziggy Mar 2015 #135

And given her propensity for lying, like about the domestic violence, its easy to see that she is stevenleser Mar 2015 #136

we do NOT know that she lied about domestic violence. We do know that court granted cali Mar 2015 #181

We know. Their adult daughter backs up his version of events. nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #267

They are getting divorced. They are angry and bitter. It happens to a lot of people. Shrike47 Mar 2015 #23

not for people in the public eye. cali Mar 2015 #31

Wouldn't bigamy be a horrible thing to do to the kids? arcane1 Mar 2015 #29

I think it reflects on just who he is- and reflects very poorly. cali Mar 2015 #32

Hold up a sec here. If she lied to him about it for all those years, isn't he the victim in this? nt Electric Monk Mar 2015 #36

How do we know that she lied? We don't at this point. MADem Mar 2015 #107

we don't know she lied. cali Mar 2015 #164

It reflects most poorly on her. His biggest error was, apparently, marrying her. arcane1 Mar 2015 #37

first of all, he's the one with the money and power cali Mar 2015 #41

"she qualified for food stamps" where's the link? wordpix Mar 2015 #48

here you go. cali Mar 2015 #59

I am amazed that in Florida one can get food stamps dsc Mar 2015 #113

Federal poverty levels puts a family of 5 at $28,410. tammywammy Mar 2015 #115

Not enough according to whom? This is curtain-twitching at its worst. arcane1 Mar 2015 #49

if he gave birth 5x and raised the kids and kept house for the wealthy wife so she could pursue KittyWampus Mar 2015 #81

And we should all be ashamed of ourselves for gossip-mongering about someone's personal life. arcane1 Mar 2015 #96

Maybe she can't get a job fadedrose Mar 2015 #119

She's probably not well educated, either. MADem Mar 2015 #152

Exactly, I can't believe anyone is actually sticking up for this greedy smirkymonkey Mar 2015 #58

I don't think he is republican, that is why he is getting some cover. namastea42 Mar 2015 #118

Not only is he a Democrat, he's a fellow DUer. And, one of the strongest liberals in Congress. n/t Coventina Mar 2015 #170

And that's what's most distressing. MADem Mar 2015 #247

He's a Democrat fadedrose Mar 2015 #121

is there reason to believe that she is one? LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #30

Bingo! NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #40

No one would be angry at the woman if this was reversed stevenleser Mar 2015 #44

Very good points! arcane1 Mar 2015 #51

If he had been a stay at home dad responsible for all the childcare and keeping house cali Mar 2015 #57

I don't buy it. I just don't. nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #60

Because who cares about a whopping big legal fraud LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #64

If reversed, people would be calling the guy every nasty name in the book for lying about being stevenleser Mar 2015 #66

AND to make her even less sympathetic, we know she lied about the domestic violence accusation stevenleser Mar 2015 #67

I remember now- last time this topic came up you were totally over the top defending Grayson. KittyWampus Mar 2015 #85

Except, we have lie upon lie committed by her. At some point, Occam's razor... stevenleser Mar 2015 #92

Oh, please, I feel sooooooo sorry for him... fadedrose Mar 2015 #116

Whether you feel sorry for him is not at issue. There is no marriage because she was already stevenleser Mar 2015 #126

Come on--they got married in Virginia a quarter century ago. MADem Mar 2015 #235

The amount of time she managed to pull off the fraud is an aggravating factor not a mitigating one stevenleser Mar 2015 #239

Didn't she only manage to "pull off this fraud" till 1995? kcr Mar 2015 #243

No. Because the fraud made their marriage invalid from the beginning, it is a fraud all along stevenleser Mar 2015 #250

No, because it doesn't make sense. Not when the divorce happened back in 1995. kcr Mar 2015 #266

A wealthy lawyer who taught law at George Washington and owns a high - priced law firm in MADem Mar 2015 #248

I'm just sorry that we can no longer use the rack and thumbscrews on hardened criminals Sheldon Cooper Mar 2015 #251

And if someone ever does what she did to my kid, I would wish for the good old days too. stevenleser Mar 2015 #254

lol! Sheldon Cooper Mar 2015 #255

Yep, that's what I thought. nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #256

You keep getting down with your bad self, steven lesser. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2015 #257

I'm always down with fairness and the facts. That's how I roll. But you keep making it ad hominem. stevenleser Mar 2015 #259

... Sheldon Cooper Mar 2015 #260

Oh, I know I'm right. Your position is completely indefensible. nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #263

How can my position be indefensible?? Sheldon Cooper Mar 2015 #277

When we see this same situation but with Republican players, I will believe you namastea42 Mar 2015 #282

It's not like Mrs Grayson had another family across town namastea42 Mar 2015 #160

You sound like a Mother fadedrose Mar 2015 #175

Yes to all of this kcr Mar 2015 #184

there is zero question. What she did fits the legal definition of bigamy. Nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #188

Some good lawyers could claim he is being mentally cruel to his family. Nt namastea42 Mar 2015 #189

No, they couldn't. The one who is mentally cruel is the one who perpetrated a 20+ year stevenleser Mar 2015 #191

You seem very deeply invested in protecting Grayson. namastea42 Mar 2015 #195

I'm deeply invested in the truth and fairness and a non gender biased viewpoint. stevenleser Mar 2015 #242

''There is zero chance you feel the same way...'' namastea42 Mar 2015 #273

Yes, completely agree with you, Steve. closeupready Mar 2015 #98

I'd love to hear under what other circumstances LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #142

Exactly. This is why I say people doing this are exhibiting gender bias. In no other situation stevenleser Mar 2015 #187

Agreed for the most part LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #212

Nothing more than mommyhood kcr Mar 2015 #223

Placed up against a felony act resulting in a fraudulent marriage? LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #224

I'm interested in why you feel a legal technicality is more relevant kcr Mar 2015 #225

What other forms of fraud do you feel are mere "technicalities"? LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #229

What other technicalities do you mistakenly feel are fraud? kcr Mar 2015 #237

ah CatWoman Mar 2015 #144

WRONG. Not if he raised 5 kids and kept house while the wife pursued her career. KittyWampus Mar 2015 #82

It wouldn't matter if they stayed home and raised the kids or not LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #105

That's unlikely to happen treestar Mar 2015 #265

There's still wage inequality, so it doesn't happen as often, but that is starting to shift. MADem Mar 2015 #276

Yeah, he'd be better off making it as amicable as possible treestar Mar 2015 #281

Because he is a jerk? Nt hack89 Mar 2015 #45

When you stay at home for twenty years or more, SheilaT Mar 2015 #53

that's it in a nutshell. cali Mar 2015 #54

Exactly sammythecat Mar 2015 #112

+1! RiverLover Mar 2015 #163

Not if he runs as a Republican fadedrose Mar 2015 #61

She is married to someone else and he is a bad husband? Maybe she is a lying golddigger trying for TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #63

oh for fuck's sake. they were together for 24 YEARS. They had 5 childre cali Mar 2015 #70

If married 2 or 3 years then yes, but over 20 years? yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #71

She should be rewarded because she pulled a lie and fraud off for that long and involved children? stevenleser Mar 2015 #72

I see it being more about the kids than her. namastea42 Mar 2015 #76

The kids aren't important. He wants to hurt this woman.... fadedrose Mar 2015 #84

Strom Thurmond./NT DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #156

I agree. The kids should be taken away from her for involving them in this fraud stevenleser Mar 2015 #86

It is harmful to take kids away from their mom who has raised them. namastea42 Mar 2015 #90

It's harmful to take kids away from their dad who raised them. It's even worse stevenleser Mar 2015 #93

he didn't raise them. she was a stay at home mom and wife. cali Mar 2015 #145

You have no evidence to say he didn't raise them. You are making stuff up. stevenleser Mar 2015 #190

You have the gall to accuse me of making stuff up? How amusing. cali Mar 2015 #199

Yep, and what you wrote is exactly the point. We don't know and you are assuming stevenleser Mar 2015 #231

People have done much more for way longer to get far less. TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #73

Anyone who pulls what she pulled deserves nothing from him, and a prosecution from the state. stevenleser Mar 2015 #75

If it was a woman they'd be out for blood over the betrayal and would be howling to bust eardrums TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #106

May as well throw this in, why not: namastea42 Mar 2015 #213

I bet you were never pregant fadedrose Mar 2015 #89

See my #92. Nt stevenleser Mar 2015 #94

Changes nothing I said. If she was providing services then a contract was in order TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #103

tough way to be a gold digger� giving birth 5x and raising the kids over twenty five years. KittyWampus Mar 2015 #88

It occurred to me when I was getting ready to get married again after divorcing my CTyankee Mar 2015 #69

Nice how a millionaire lets his kids get on food stamps. bravenak Mar 2015 #74

We don't often agree on much, but we agree on this one. ScreamingMeemie Mar 2015 #78

I presume because he's an asshole. tabasco Mar 2015 #80

Why do you give a shit about their personal business? giftedgirl77 Mar 2015 #87

Thank you! dorkzilla Mar 2015 #91

+1 Couldn't agree more! B Calm Mar 2015 #95

nope. sorry. he's a public figure and this is news. cali Mar 2015 #146

No, it's called petty gossip regardless of who the person is. giftedgirl77 Mar 2015 #154

Well he posts here why don't you send him a PM and ask? Rex Mar 2015 #97

Here's the thing cali... trumad Mar 2015 #101

Thank you.. giftedgirl77 Mar 2015 #111

what obsession, trumad? do tell. I hardly post a lot about him. cali Mar 2015 #147

He doesn't want her to get half. MADem Mar 2015 #104

Its easy to look like an asshole JonLP24 Mar 2015 #132

Well, this is an ugly divorce. He is a very wealthy man and he has children that should MADem Mar 2015 #137

I more see it from your POV JonLP24 Mar 2015 #141

you said it all, and you said it so well. cali Mar 2015 #148

Hopefully this is just being used as leverage in a divorce settlement LittleBlue Mar 2015 #108

Looks like he hates women. nt greytdemocrat Mar 2015 #114

Looks like a bunch of trolls in this thread trumad Mar 2015 #127

jury results irisblue Mar 2015 #131

as phony as John Edwards. BUt then you were also a big JE fan, weren't you? cali Mar 2015 #149

Dude is my God Damn Congressman.. trumad Mar 2015 #166

oh please. do you know him personally? If you don't cali Mar 2015 #167

Do you know him personally... trumad Mar 2015 #198

Great progressives can be lousy husbands and fathers. MADem Mar 2015 #151

And you know this how? trumad Mar 2015 #165

Excuse me? "Great progressives can be lousy husbands and fathers." MADem Mar 2015 #233

do you even here yourself? trumad Mar 2015 #236

It's hear, and I do hear myself--I object to making children victims when parents have spats. MADem Mar 2015 #238

But She is the one who involved the children when she had them in what only she knew was a stevenleser Mar 2015 #241

Wow--I am appalled at your comments, genuinely APPALLED. MADem Mar 2015 #244

I am appalled at yours as well. There is no way you would accept someone doing what she did stevenleser Mar 2015 #249

Yes, I would--you are wrong. MADem Mar 2015 #261

I don't buy it, I just don't. You don't base your life with someone on a lie and expect it to be OK. stevenleser Mar 2015 #262

You have no measure of forgiveness? No measure of compassion? And that's assuming she DID lie... MADem Mar 2015 #268

Alan Grayson loses 18 million in fraud scheme: namastea42 Mar 2015 #283

. LadyHawkAZ Mar 2015 #143

It doesn't look good saying being home looking after kids and house namastea42 Mar 2015 #162

Money, money, money money money money, the only thing that matters to those people CBGLuthier Mar 2015 #130

Because no jury would side with him over her documented domestic violence. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2015 #139

That's it in a nut shell. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #158

3 possible reasons, Rincewind Mar 2015 #150

love him admire him he inspires me ALBliberal Mar 2015 #153

Because rjsquirrel Mar 2015 #161

Whew, it is a good thing Alan doesn't read or post here. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #169

His office posts here. Are you sure that he personally posts? cali Mar 2015 #171

Yes I agree, best to chase him away and make sure this place is toxic for all Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #172

oh for pity's sake. melodrama much? As if this would chase him away. cali Mar 2015 #174

For sure. Not a "true" progressive. As I said: well done! Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #176

to suggest 2400/mo is all that. insurance and taxes, utilities and mainteniance of a huge house seabeyond Mar 2015 #173

He says he pays for the house and utilities. tammywammy Mar 2015 #177

do you know for a fact, he is not including the 2400 a month with utilities/insurance/maintenience? seabeyond Mar 2015 #179

I don't know for a fact, but that's what he says tammywammy Mar 2015 #182

do you have a source for Grayson knowing about the blip in her divorce process? cali Mar 2015 #180

i read it about 3 months ago. happened in early 90's when she was informed the divorce did not go seabeyond Mar 2015 #183

By and large, it's Alan Grayson who has been villified. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #210

Just to clarify your point of view on this... NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #227

dont know wtf you are talking about, dude. you are going to have to be much more clear, when wanting seabeyond Mar 2015 #228

Ask and you shall receive, seabeyond. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #230

So once again, do you or do you not think a woman should get 70% in a divorce? NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #291

did you read the subthread? where am i wrong? nt seabeyond Mar 2015 #292

I guess I'm not going to get an answer. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #293

no. if you are unwilling to consider a conversation being had, no. you will not seabeyond Mar 2015 #294

You want me to tell you what is wrong with thinking that a woman is entitled to 70%? NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #295

you did not read, right? i am done. this is inevtiably how conversations are with you, hence, seabeyond Mar 2015 #296

Actually, yes, I read it all. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #297

Who are we to judge here? Generic Brad Mar 2015 #178

he's a public figure- and were he a republican, we sure as hell wouldn't be hearing cali Mar 2015 #186

Speak for yourself Generic Brad Mar 2015 #201

How has he chosen to make this a public matter? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2015 #253

Bigamy is a legal status. It's a legal argument. And she's abusive. DirkGently Mar 2015 #185

she did divorce him. Grayson is using a divorce decree from 1994 cali Mar 2015 #196

Nope. The daughter was an eyewitness AND there is video. Only the wife attacked. DirkGently Mar 2015 #218

that doesn't mean that he hasn't been physically abusive toward her on other cali Mar 2015 #220

You approve her shoving and lying to police, and DirkGently Mar 2015 #221

"she shoved him. hardly abuse." NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #222

There is a minute missing from that video, and there's an encounter in the house not seen. MADem Mar 2015 #234

Exactly. The adult daughter backs Alan up. The arguments by some here are ridiculous. stevenleser Mar 2015 #252

My uncle was married for 30 years, when he was found to be a bigamist. Pathwalker Mar 2015 #192

Exactly. All this garbage from people saying he is the bad guy is B.S. stevenleser Mar 2015 #194

That's their business, just like Monica was the Clintons' business. More than half the population sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #193

sorry, the reality is that these things are part of politics. cali Mar 2015 #197

That's your opinion. You still don't Know a thing about their private lives, nor should you. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #204

If Monica bore Bill Clinton five children I would have been the first to argue they deserved... DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #203

Wait a minute. A couple of days ago you told me your only principle was "Dem good, Republican bad". Marr Mar 2015 #217

We are conflating several issues. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #219

If Grayson was a repuke in the exact same situation rather than a progressive darling cali Mar 2015 #200

And if a Republican was in the exact same situation as Hillary regarding emails Fumesucker Mar 2015 #211

As a partisan I would try to make as much political hay as possible. DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #214

It's not a huge issue to me, don't care either way Fumesucker Mar 2015 #215

I don't know what happened... DemocratSinceBirth Mar 2015 #216

''Scientists have studied for years this difficult question of why some people have a conscience namastea42 Mar 2015 #208

Just read through this thread and color me surprised, guess who is suspicious of Grayson NoJusticeNoPeace Mar 2015 #226

sorry, I'm a progressive. A Bernie Sanders progressive. cali Mar 2015 #270

That's pretty congruent with my opinion of him. Barack_America Mar 2015 #232

1) Grayson has no chance at higher office. Most who follow him are aware of this. NCTraveler Mar 2015 #240

Don't know the whole story, plus I see no need to pass judgement. I don't pass judgement on Bill djean111 Mar 2015 #258

I would assume he is into "accountability". IdaBriggs Mar 2015 #269

If it's true that she was divorced in 1994, she spent 19 years not as a bigamist cali Mar 2015 #272

I am astounded that more people who subscribe to this board don't "get" that. MADem Mar 2015 #274

they don't get it because he's a progressive darling. cali Mar 2015 #279

To me, a "progressive darling" is a parent who looks out for their kids. MADem Mar 2015 #290

Cali, you can't make the relationship a LEGAL MARRIAGE because it wasn't one IdaBriggs Mar 2015 #275

Oh please. This isn't about whether or not it was a legal marriage. cali Mar 2015 #278

"This isn't about whether or not it was a legal marriage." DISAGREE. IdaBriggs Mar 2015 #280

If it's not about what's legal, then what is it about? NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #286

Congressman Grayson Is A Member On DU, PM Him Ask Him Personally... Corey_Baker08 Mar 2015 #284

My ex handled a few cases like this Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2015 #285

Were any of them together with multiple kids for 25 years? kcr Mar 2015 #287

This was pro bono, these men had nothing Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2015 #289

I knew of a few cases like that when I was in the Air Force. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #288