General Discussion

avebury

(11,202 posts)

45. Given the fact that the US has black sites

Wed Mar 18, 2015, 08:36 PM

Mar 2015

in numerous places around the world, have had no problem holding (in some cases innocent people) in black sites and Guantanamo Bay, use torture as the norm - why on earth would anybody in the situation of Snowden (or a whistle blower) stick around to go through the legal system? First of all they might not actually face the legal system (there are black sites) and if they do the US legal system is hardly a fare and balanced system. Look at how many Government officials who have committed crime with no consequence. Look at how many actual whistle blowers who tried to go through the system to report wrongdoings cannot find anybody in the system to listen to him/her and they are the people who are forced to go public and get prosecuted for it.

I would rather have people shine the light on the dirty little deeds and get it made public because that is the only chance of achieving change. You cannot trust the system to police itself for the good of the people. Because the wrong doers who have enough connections can do as they please, whistleblowers, not so much.

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Give Edward Snowden the Same Deal General Petraeus Got for Leaking Info [View all] bigtree Mar 2015 OP

K&R G_j Mar 2015 #1

Absolutely. Octafish Mar 2015 #2

These are two different cases, Petraeus did not provide files to news sources. Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #3

different, yes bigtree Mar 2015 #5

Nice try marym625 Mar 2015 #35

"gave classified info to the American people"....and China, and Russia, and who knows who else. George II Mar 2015 #49

'and who knows' bigtree Mar 2015 #55

Just because Petraeus was not charged with theft avebury Mar 2015 #6

I am upset over Snowden, others committing crimes does not excuse what Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #22

Given the fact that the US has black sites avebury Mar 2015 #45

Shine a light on dirty little deeds, deeds like those addressed in a law passed in Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #86

That's a very good point - Petraeus faced his accusers and admitted what he did... George II Mar 2015 #51

So did Manning who got tortured and 35 yrs in Leavenworth. riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #62

So, do you think Manning's crime would be worth 35 years in Leavenworth? Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #87

Manning's a whistleblower. No. I don't think her "Crime" warrants this sentence. riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #88

I thought you knew what crime Manning was charged with but here is the info Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #89

Oh I'm 110% aware. We just completely disagree nt riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #90

Disagree with the crime? Well, Manning has been tried and sentenced. Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #92

that's what most people regard as whistleblowing; exposing government wrongdoing bigtree Mar 2015 #93

I got it, I can commit crimes, claim it is whistle blower. Just think we would not Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #94

you're deflecting from the point bigtree Mar 2015 #96

What crimes were those? randome Mar 2015 #116

Bush lying in his justifications for invading Iraq bigtree Mar 2015 #117

The collateral murder video is war and war is hell. randome Mar 2015 #118

what a pathetic summary of excuses bigtree Mar 2015 #119

Geeze, I basically agreed with your third point. randome Mar 2015 #120

firing on rescuers, including children? bigtree Mar 2015 #121

There was a curfew in place and -supposedly- everyone was aware of it. randome Mar 2015 #122

shooting rescuers and children wasn't their 'job' bigtree Mar 2015 #123

Manning would be a whistleblower if... Oktober Mar 2015 #106

she was prosecuted because she ran afoul of the espionage act bigtree Mar 2015 #113

It was physically impossible for him to have read what he released... Oktober Mar 2015 #114

she insisted she knew the content bigtree Mar 2015 #115

It's disingenuous to do basic math? Oktober Mar 2015 #130

I'll assert that if you insist failure to read them was the basis for her conviction bigtree Mar 2015 #131

How can you even have a conversation...? Oktober Mar 2015 #134

are you aware that the point is irrelevant in this case? bigtree Mar 2015 #135

You don't see a problem... Oktober Mar 2015 #138

you've made a judgment based on your own bias bigtree Mar 2015 #140

Aside from flunking basic... Oktober Mar 2015 #141

I consider that a minor point in the broader questions surrounding her dissemination of information bigtree Mar 2015 #142

Of course... Oktober Mar 2015 #144

I understand bigtree Mar 2015 #145

No obfuscation here... Oktober Mar 2015 #146

I guess it depends on the lens you're looking through bigtree Mar 2015 #148

+1 Jamaal510 Mar 2015 #127

Correction. Snowden did not 'run off to Russia' and everytime someone makes that false sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #143

"Run off to Russia" is short-hand for "run off to China"... randome Mar 2015 #149

Now once again, the facts. The US Govt stranded Snowden in Russia. On his way to S.America sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #173

The false claim of Snowden revealing information brought about a law in 2008, Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #150

This message was self-deleted by its author bigtree Mar 2015 #160

Daniel Ellsberg doesn't have any credibility? bigtree Mar 2015 #161

Who is talking about Daniel Ellsberg? I did not mention him in the post Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #163

I gave you the wrong Ellsberg quote, but you're off-base and need some perspective bigtree Mar 2015 #165

Did Snowden work for the NSA? Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #166

dissembling bigtree Mar 2015 #167

The truth is the truth, Snowden worked for a contractor within the NSA. Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #168

most of us don't require a government act to define who we feel are whistleblowers bigtree Mar 2015 #169

Apparently the government has defined who is excluded, this is a fact. Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #170

fuck the government bigtree Mar 2015 #171

Keep whatever opinion you want, it still does not change facts. Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #172

No, YOU stick to facts. First, a majority of the American people view Snowden as a Whistle Blower. sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #174

Let's stick to the facts, a person working in and around NSA is EXEMPT Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #175

the poster is clearly talking about what most regard as 'whistleblowing,' not the flawed law bigtree Mar 2015 #176

You say I have a reading comprehension and you come back with a flawed legistration Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #178

Thank you, excellent post. I have posted polls on this before, and wasnt about to go wasting time sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #179

And make him an advisor as well malaise Mar 2015 #4

That's funny. randome Mar 2015 #9

Betrayus is an advisor malaise Mar 2015 #10

And he shouldn't be, I would agree with that. randome Mar 2015 #11

Betrayus was a failure in Iraq. bvar22 Mar 2015 #18

Bear in mind that Petraeus is/was a general who lost a war Fumesucker Mar 2015 #12

He needs to be out. Period. Why he's 'advising' is beyond me. randome Mar 2015 #14

Snowden appears to be happy living in Freedom and Security in Russia. Agnosticsherbet Mar 2015 #7

Agreed. To do otherwise is rank hypocrisy. AtomicKitten Mar 2015 #8

Sigh... no. gcomeau Mar 2015 #13

his leaks were the only impetus for the calls for reform of the intelligence system today bigtree Mar 2015 #16

And if he'd left it at that, like I said, I might agree. gcomeau Mar 2015 #20

that's the state of opposition to his actions bigtree Mar 2015 #23

Generalizations? gcomeau Mar 2015 #27

harm done? bigtree Mar 2015 #33

He. Compromised. The. Intelligence. Penetration. gcomeau Mar 2015 #40

no. one. has. proven. that. bigtree Mar 2015 #41

It. Was. Confessed. To. gcomeau Mar 2015 #42

bull. shit. bigtree Mar 2015 #44

Yeah, that's funny. gcomeau Mar 2015 #53

so he provided the internet addresses that our NSA had been hacking? bigtree Mar 2015 #63

You must be joking. gcomeau Mar 2015 #68

you must be joking bigtree Mar 2015 #70

You mean governments spy on EACH OTHER???? GASP!!!!!! gcomeau Mar 2015 #72

you dismiss the spying, saying everyone does it bigtree Mar 2015 #77

Ok, seriously, are you trolling me? Just be honest. gcomeau Mar 2015 #133

Let's get busy with that confession link. DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2015 #50

Enjoy gcomeau Mar 2015 #54

that article doesn't support your claims of a 'confession' bigtree Mar 2015 #59

Yeah... it does. gcomeau Mar 2015 #61

that's not a Snowden confession bigtree Mar 2015 #66

Thanks for the link DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2015 #60

How do you feel about Petraeus giving top secret info... grasswire Mar 2015 #65

Try actually reading my first reply here. -eom gcomeau Mar 2015 #69

You're wasting your time. Major Hogwash Mar 2015 #79

Yeah, but I just can't help myself... gcomeau Mar 2015 #177

LOL, Petraeus wasn't committed knowingly and deliberately??? nt Logical Mar 2015 #56

Didn't say that. gcomeau Mar 2015 #71

Could have been a maybe ,,,, if Cryptoad Mar 2015 #15

the US government is behaving like a communist nation in its pursuit and prosecution of the man bigtree Mar 2015 #17

And should he receive some of the same punishment given by the Russian authorities Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #24

no bigtree Mar 2015 #25

If one opposed Putin they are killed. Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #26

ooh, Putin pablum bigtree Mar 2015 #36

Not me, I did not run to Russia Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #37

I assume you're not at risk bigtree Mar 2015 #83

I have been in a position in which I couldhave been charged with espionage, Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #85

It's that 'comrade' shit again... blackspade Mar 2015 #34

The soul of a 72-year old with the mind of someone much, much younger. DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2015 #47

I call all my buds in Russia , Comrade..! Cryptoad Mar 2015 #58

What can of worms would that be? blackspade Mar 2015 #110

Good for you,,,,, Cryptoad Mar 2015 #124

Sure...once he shows up to the bar of the court. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #19

That's my position: I'm not against a similar deal on the similar charges alcibiades_mystery Mar 2015 #100

Snowden might start by hiring Petraeus' attorneys Blue_Tires Mar 2015 #21

Yes, the ACLU. Such a bunch of mooks.... riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #73

But the ACLU haven't gotten a deal done, have they? Blue_Tires Mar 2015 #78

Lol! Nice try but no dice. When your options are Manning's treatment or Drakes riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #81

Manning was tried under UCMJ which isn't applicable here... Blue_Tires Mar 2015 #84

And Snowden is charged under the Espionage Act of 1917 . . . markpkessinger Mar 2015 #97

Actually. ....it's unclear if the ACLU are Snowden's lawyers or merely msanthrope Mar 2015 #111

Ben Wizner is his attorney and you know that riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #132

Ben Wizner is not a criminal defense attorney. He is not listed on the federal docket msanthrope Mar 2015 #139

Go ahead and tell Snowden to complain about Wizner to the bar association riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #147

Why would Snowden complain about Wizner? Look, the lawyer he should be complaining about is msanthrope Mar 2015 #152

Because Wizner isn't a criminal defense attorney!!11!! riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #154

Exactly. blackspade Mar 2015 #28

That would involve change obxhead Mar 2015 #29

Dont think Petraeus gave the Chinese & russians anything secret. 7962 Mar 2015 #30

you can't know where Petraeus' info went. grasswire Mar 2015 #67

I CAN know that Snowden had a helluva lot more than Petraeus did. 7962 Mar 2015 #74

Petraeus gave the names of covert agents and conversations with the President neverforget Mar 2015 #82

questions, questions, questions... grasswire Mar 2015 #91

You dont think the govt already knows the answer to those questions? 7962 Mar 2015 #95

you seem to be willing to believe the authorities about any criminality... grasswire Mar 2015 #99

Yeah--void that deal and put Petreus in jail, too. MADem Mar 2015 #31

I keep seeing this same meme over and over..... blackspade Mar 2015 #38

Lots of people accuse Snowden of lying. No one, I mean NO ONE, can back those claims. DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2015 #48

Because the Chinese and Russians would be motivated to announce their advantage? MADem Mar 2015 #107

You have GOT to be kidding. You really think they just left him alone?? 7962 Mar 2015 #108

So the answer to my question is "no" blackspade Mar 2015 #109

So your opinion is that its just mere speculation? Then what do you think the odds are? 7962 Mar 2015 #125

The fact is that it's speculation. blackspade Mar 2015 #126

this nation will benefit from the reforms sparked by Snowden's revelations bigtree Mar 2015 #39

Patreus is a traitor and belongs in prison MohRokTah Mar 2015 #32

+1 about Petraeus but Manning is where she belongs, in prison. cstanleytech Mar 2015 #46

If Patreus doesn't have to sit his days out in prison, than neither should Manning. MohRokTah Mar 2015 #102

First off Manning isnt a traitor nor are Patreus or Snowden unless one of them gave cstanleytech Mar 2015 #103

I disagreed with the deal Petraeus was given and I disagree with giving Snowden a similar deal. cstanleytech Mar 2015 #43

How about Bradley Manning? midnight Mar 2015 #52

You mean Chelsea? I suspect there are limited options. cstanleytech Mar 2015 #104

I'm fairly certain an offer is probably on the table for Snowden and has been all along... Chan790 Mar 2015 #57

This is a fascinating post. I plan to mull this over for a bit. riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #76

What exactly would they prosecute Julian Assange for? He isnt an american citizen and if he wasnt in cstanleytech Mar 2015 #105

Two points: Chan790 Mar 2015 #128

I generally agree with your post except as to Wikileaks.... msanthrope Mar 2015 #112

Highly recommend. n/t Jefferson23 Mar 2015 #64

Yeah I just heard a few heads exploding from the logic of that and no way to refute it. Rex Mar 2015 #75

Well, there is, actually. They aren't similarly situated. msanthrope Mar 2015 #151

Wouldn't he be tried by a military court, thinking about it they are different. Rex Mar 2015 #155

No--Petraeus wasn't charged by the military because he was CIA head when the offenses took place. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #159

Oh okay, I thought he was active military the entire time. Rex Mar 2015 #162

There almost certainly won't be any deal Blue_Tires Mar 2015 #80

Great post . . . markpkessinger Mar 2015 #98

Yep. The authoritarians gravitate to the side with the most official sounding title. GoneFishin Mar 2015 #137

The Definition of Cognitive Dissonance Demeter Mar 2015 #157

k/r 840high Mar 2015 #101

Once again it's not what you do, right or wrong. DirkGently Mar 2015 #129

In the interest of fair treatment, I think they should both be prosecuted. Sheepshank Mar 2015 #136

Snowden's act of whislteblowing has made a significant positive impact for American Citizens 2banon Mar 2015 #153

I regret that I have only One REC to give to this article! Demeter Mar 2015 #156

Nothing like a mention of Snowden SwankyXomb Mar 2015 #158

Issue Snowden a uniform and a chest covered with tinware and it would be a done deal. K&R Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2015 #164