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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
58. It probably has multiple causes in different places and times.
Thu May 3, 2012, 06:06 PM
May 2012

Fertility rates can drop because increased industrialization and rising life expectancy makes children less necessary, as in Western Europe from 1950 to the mid 1970s or in South-East Asia more recently.

They can fall because women become educated and empowered (as the agricultural yoke is lifted) as is happening in African nations;

They can fall because mothers see few opportunities in the future for their children due to worsening economic circumstances, as in the ex-Soviet Union and many Eastern bloc countries;

And they can fall because of government edict as in China.

In most places fertility rates probably fall because of specific local combinations of these factors.

Regarding education, I think I mentioned to you about a month ago something I heard at a conference in Berkeley. An education activist from India and an American woman film-maker looked at education in rural Ladakh (in Kashmir) and found something disturbing. Young women were being educated and the fertility rates were falling as expected, but human trafficking rates were rising at the same time, as were land grabs in the region. What the speakers ascribed it to was the type of education the young people were being given.

The young people are often being given a modern Western-style education that is separating them from their culture and making them want to become Western consumers. In order to do that they want (need) to move to cities and get jobs using their new skills. In the cities the girls find few opportunities and become prey for the traffickers. As the young people (boys as well as girls) move to the cities to become part of the global consumer culture, they abandon the rural life in droves. This leaves the land unprotected (a whole generation of potential farmers vanishes) and it becomes vulnerable to land grabs by countries like China.

The lesson is that we must be very careful how we educate the young people in these vulnerable agricultural communities. The right sort of education (especially for girls) can protect them to some degree against the risks of trafficking, but the wrong style of education can have unexpectedly negative consequences.

To me all this says that things are rarely as simple as we would in our hearts like them to be. That applies as much to education as it does to any other activity in our civilization. We always need to look below the surface at the deeper interconnections, to find the unintended consequences of our actions and avoid making well-intentioned but potentially harmful decisions. I think that's called exercising wisdom, and it's something we need to do a lot more of.

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When you lose vital things that are civilization markers the collapse is on lunatica May 2012 #1
In my opinion we are already in the early stages of something resembling GliderGuider May 2012 #2
Reading Orlov would definitely reinforce that point of view pscot May 2012 #8
In all fairness.. Russian history gives Russians little incentive for cheerfulness.. Fumesucker May 2012 #12
Yet the Repubs want to argue about birth control adigal May 2012 #13
Throw in the very real possibility of Fukishima getting worse dixiegrrrrl May 2012 #47
One other ominous sign (oddly enough) is the falling global birth rate. GliderGuider May 2012 #3
The birth rate in the US at least should be reflecting the aging of the baby boomers. They did not jwirr May 2012 #39
Regarding the neighbours GliderGuider May 2012 #40
We are doing that - hoping when they see what we are doing they will follow. So far they think it jwirr May 2012 #54
It's falling as women get empowered--I think it's the opposite of collapse--it's the emergence of diane in sf May 2012 #56
It probably has multiple causes in different places and times. GliderGuider May 2012 #58
Yet none of us will see major effects of the collapse in our lifetimes. cbdo2007 May 2012 #4
I sincerely doubt that it will take that long. marmar May 2012 #5
Au contraire, mon frere GliderGuider May 2012 #6
Efficiency is but a secondary effect, the primary cause is greed and profit.. Fumesucker May 2012 #14
I agree, but the motive isn't the big issue for me -the effect is. GliderGuider May 2012 #15
If you don't know first causes it's hard to change the effects.. Fumesucker May 2012 #23
One of the good things about Occupy was that it pointed out that cause. GliderGuider May 2012 #26
The Magistrate made an offhand comment to me once on DU2 Fumesucker May 2012 #28
I've given up thinking we will be able to hold back the tides of destiny GliderGuider May 2012 #30
Yes, in some ways, it's a privilege to be able to witness this period in human history. bemildred May 2012 #73
In looking for the underlying cause of greed do not underestimate fear. But I do not see greed as jwirr May 2012 #41
Humans also have a tendency to assume they are witnessing the end times.... cbdo2007 May 2012 #22
I read the article and the author asserts that cities will fare the best adigal May 2012 #16
Cities will fare better overall until the breakdown becomes severe. GliderGuider May 2012 #18
Yeah, when the infrastructure like sewage treatment and electrical grids start going..... marmar May 2012 #20
Life expectancy is declining KurtNYC May 2012 #17
Yes, those are the signals all right. GliderGuider May 2012 #21
Is EU doing anything to preserve their health care situation that would be of importance to this jwirr May 2012 #42
All of Europe has universal single-payer health care to some degree GliderGuider May 2012 #48
That is what I was afraid of. I think one big problem with a collapse and government programs is jwirr May 2012 #55
No it is not hack89 May 2012 #81
It's best not to over-aggregate things like fertility and life expectancy GliderGuider May 2012 #83
Some groups go up, some groups go down hack89 May 2012 #84
Weather isn't climate, true. GliderGuider May 2012 #86
I agree with you. sendero May 2012 #7
Totally agree but I grew up in the early 40s and did not have a lot of the modern things we have jwirr May 2012 #43
A great many people have not had that knowledge handed down. FedUpWithIt All May 2012 #82
True that. I visited an operating "pioneer village" museum a couple of years ago GliderGuider May 2012 #85
There are still really good sources of that info available FedUpWithIt All May 2012 #87
You are right - I actually began to realize that when I was in college and when I went home I jwirr May 2012 #88
I noticed. Hatchling May 2012 #9
Yep. bemildred May 2012 #10
Oh, you can be sure that the 1 percent knows damn well... RevStPatrick May 2012 #11
Inside the Vortex, life and death for the Brutals doesn't matter. leveymg May 2012 #19
Hmmmm...sounds like the Capital and the Districts... lapislzi May 2012 #25
It also sounds like the situation in medieval Europe GliderGuider May 2012 #27
I think you may be oversimplifying medieval Europe lapislzi May 2012 #29
And it was a time of fun and plunder. The Crusades and intrigues w/ Second Rome at Constantinople leveymg May 2012 #31
Hey, I'm just offering the framework. lapislzi May 2012 #36
Actually yes, thanks. GliderGuider May 2012 #32
I will read this book! lapislzi May 2012 #37
And bubonic plague created new opportunities for the survivors Lydia Leftcoast May 2012 #66
Yes! lapislzi May 2012 #72
One of the themes of the 70s: we can chose between the castle or the tribe. Unfortunately I jwirr May 2012 #45
That's what we're headed for now, with our "civilized" society. Zalatix May 2012 #46
Pls tell me Connery's outfit will not be mandatory when TSHTF big time. dixiegrrrrl May 2012 #49
Naw, we all have to wear those monkey-suits from Planet of the Apes GliderGuider May 2012 #50
That would truly be Shock and Awe - sure to send any enemy running, screaming, pleading for mercy leveymg May 2012 #52
On the other hand, collapses are the best way to get rid of bloated empires starroute May 2012 #24
An orderly collapse gets rid of the working class. Zalatix May 2012 #34
I was thinking this...where I live in upstate NY adigal May 2012 #44
Sometimes you kick, sometimes you get kicked..... marmar May 2012 #33
Well aren't you the sly one:-) GliderGuider May 2012 #38
I've been saying much the same thing for a while now... chervilant May 2012 #35
You said it better than I could today. dixiegrrrrl May 2012 #53
Thanks, chervilant May 2012 #62
Can you please re-post this as a thread so I can K&R it? Thanks!!! Zalatix May 2012 #60
I agree. When you see it all listed out like that it really drives the point home. GliderGuider May 2012 #61
Thanks! chervilant May 2012 #64
Done, and thanks! chervilant May 2012 #63
I'm going to go get drunk. Carpe diem, I say :) Seriously, though, coalition_unwilling May 2012 #65
Despair is one of the big risks of thinking deeply about these problems. GliderGuider May 2012 #68
Interestingly, chervilant May 2012 #70
I moved this comment out to the main line to make it more accessible GliderGuider May 2012 #71
I heartily concur. That honesty about facing our situation head on is coalition_unwilling May 2012 #76
Totally agree... chervilant May 2012 #69
To me it's pretty simple... WCGreen May 2012 #51
I always say that our civilization is like a rabbit shot on the run: tblue37 May 2012 #57
Kicking....this is an important read. dixiegrrrrl May 2012 #59
K&R. n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #67
Can I Kick It? marmar May 2012 #74
I'm absolutely thrilled to be alive at this moment in history. GliderGuider May 2012 #75
This situation might be just more of the same for our generation(s) IDemo May 2012 #77
No question this is far bigger than the past problems we've created. GliderGuider May 2012 #80
great post paulk May 2012 #78
The American empire peaked during the sixties, MadHound May 2012 #79
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