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pnwmom

(110,318 posts)

137. The Italian justice system is among the worst in western Europe -- so it is worse than ours, too.

Thu Mar 26, 2015, 02:22 PM

Mar 2015

Compared to other western European countries, they are near the bottom in the protection of human rights -- as seen in their record with the European Court of Human Rights (an appeals court that Amanda and Raffaele will be able to apply to.)

And this case is a good example.

Among other things, they flagrantly denied the two students the right to the presumption of innocence. The Court of Cassation ordered the second appeals court to use the "Judicial truths" that the burglar, Rudy Guede, stipulated to in his own "fast track" trial -- which was like a no-contest plea in the US. Amanda and Raffaele couldn't participate in that trial, and their attorneys weren't allowed to question Guede in their own trial -- but his statement (a handwritten statement that he proved unable to read -- so the prosecutor did it for him) was entered into evidence at their trial and the Judges there were ordered to use it against the students.

Would you care more about Amanda Knox if she were a hispanic student or an AA student from Chicago? Apparently you would.

With regard to our extradition agreement, I think it should be null and void. The legislation approving Guede's fast-track trial, and the decisions as to how its "stipulations" could be used against other defendants in separate trials, substantially changed Italy's justice system in a way that the US couldn't have anticipated.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jan/27/european-court-human-rights-judgments

Of Western European nations, Greece and Italy had the largest number of adverse rulings, at 69 and 32 respectively

http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/CP_Italy_ENG.pdf

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Amanda Knox will again go before an Italian court [View all] tammywammy Mar 2015 OP

No she won't bluestateguy Mar 2015 #1

Then why did we sign an extradition treaty with that country? davidn3600 Mar 2015 #7

It wasn't magic. Their system changed for the worse when they passed the fast-track trial legislation. pnwmom Mar 2015 #11

Good post, pnwmom... hlthe2b Mar 2015 #21

Recommending your post! TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #34

Wow, I learned a lot from this post Bettie Mar 2015 #35

It sounds like a big part of the problem is the same problem we have here - prosecutors being Chathamization Mar 2015 #37

Yes, we do bribe possible witnesses with lower sentences, but we DON'T then pnwmom Mar 2015 #51

The difference is we require the bribe recipient to testify jeff47 Mar 2015 #76

Exactly. And that is a key difference. Their fast-track law specifically allows the person pnwmom Mar 2015 #111

+1 uponit7771 Mar 2015 #144

I've never heard such a well spoken summary Takket Mar 2015 #45

You're welcome Takket. This has been going on far too long, unfortunately. pnwmom Mar 2015 #52

No, the Italian courts and police have always been dreadful, corrupt, and incompetent. Spider Jerusalem Mar 2015 #97

The fast track legislation is a relatively new development that made a bad system worse, pnwmom Mar 2015 #112

Thanks for posting this. Captain Stern Mar 2015 #109

You're welcome, Captain Stern. pnwmom Mar 2015 #113

Regardless, we shouldn't do it. She has already been tried. It is a case of double jeopardy by our still_one Mar 2015 #54

Our Constitution does not apply in foreign countries. Really, it doesn't. Hekate Mar 2015 #85

It apples to our citizens, and Amanda Knox is a US citizen, and she has Constitutional rights above still_one Mar 2015 #94

... Spider Jerusalem Mar 2015 #98

He is only one legal expert and many disagree with him. pnwmom Mar 2015 #118

You do realize, of course, that it's her appeal, right? Kinda blows the whole msanthrope Mar 2015 #207

You do realize that the 2nd appeal overturned her innocent verdict. She was found innocent pnwmom Mar 2015 #212

She was not found innocent. She was, however, initially found guilty, and the appeals msanthrope Mar 2015 #213

She was actually found innocent. There are two kinds of not-guilty verdicts in Italy, and the pnwmom Mar 2015 #214

Hellman was annulled. That "innocent" verdict does not exist. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #216

That is a legal fiction in Italy that the US has no need to accept. The State Department thought pnwmom Mar 2015 #217

I guess you were wrong about Italian justice, then? nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #225

I was right about Amanda's innocence. Were you? pnwmom Mar 2015 #226

No....I don't think you were right. I think Ms. Knox's character will out. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #227

Her character and Raffaele's have already been revealed. They have both held up pnwmom Mar 2015 #228

Where is OJ, pnwmom? He isn't guilty of his ex-wife's murder, either. msanthrope Mar 2015 #229

OJ was voted not-guilty, which was not the categorical assertion of innocence that went to pnwmom Mar 2015 #230

Like I said....you and I will have to agree to disagree. But Amanda msanthrope Mar 2015 #231

You're right, it doesn't. But the Supreme Court ruled in 1957 that our government cannot pnwmom Mar 2015 #114

That's a point. nt Hekate Mar 2015 #115

If we are not going to turn over CIA agents Kelvin Mace Mar 2015 #126

'All American Girl' and 'Kangaroo Court'. And let's not honor our extradition agreements! Okay, sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #120

I don't want Assange extradited, btw bluestateguy Mar 2015 #135

The Italian justice system is among the worst in western Europe -- so it is worse than ours, too. pnwmom Mar 2015 #137

While this is the pot calling the kettle black, mythology Mar 2015 #2

Insanely convoluted, if nothing else. Reminds me somewhat of Kafka's 'The Trial.' n/t nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #8

I'd be surprised if they sent her back. Our legal system offers one bite of the apple, and that's MADem Mar 2015 #3

The prosecution theory is truly bizzare Midnight Writer Mar 2015 #6

Consulting a psychic, multiple times??? That should be cause for disbarment. n/t nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #9

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #22

A cop in a major us city told me that they do employ psychics in missing persons and murder cases. Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #92

The PA's in that Italian Provence, like in the US, have way to much authority uponit7771 Mar 2015 #145

I think she did it. And I think she got every advantage of the inefficiency msanthrope Mar 2015 #14

Isn't that interesting how two people can look at the same thing and see it so differently? MADem Mar 2015 #41

I didn't think she did it until I read in detail the Massei Report..... msanthrope Mar 2015 #43

Those led me to the very opposite conclusion! MADem Mar 2015 #47

This Sicilian can only shrug at that. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #48

I was closer to Roma; Sicilia is a world apart (though I enjoy it when I visit). nt MADem Mar 2015 #50

"This Sicilian" I see where your opinion comes from Bonx Mar 2015 #59

Agreed. 100% riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #68

I agree with you about Raffaele. I am much more concerned about him right now. pnwmom Mar 2015 #132

If you haven't read Judge Hellman's appeals report -- which contained an analysis of the DNA pnwmom Mar 2015 #131

Pnwmom....I read it in the Italian. And my point, which you seem to be msanthrope Mar 2015 #149

So? Please read the Hellman verdict in the Italian, and then get back to me. pnwmom Mar 2015 #161

As I said...the report of the first jury is the most instructive document msanthrope Mar 2015 #205

I read it a long time ago, in English. It and the Nencini verdict were nonsensical. nt pnwmom Mar 2015 #215

I read her book too JustAnotherGen Mar 2015 #134

I can't watch that video I posted and ever TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #69

What video? nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #70

THIS video TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #73

I think a 4 minute video edit put out by people who admit they are advocates for Knox is worthless.. msanthrope Mar 2015 #75

LOL Your eyes don't see what you don't want to see TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #79

Like I said--a video put out by an advocacy group for Ms. Knox doesn't carry the same weight as a msanthrope Mar 2015 #80

And how about that BBC report TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #81

Well, I think that's why it's a far more balanced viewpoint than the edit job you posted. msanthrope Mar 2015 #90

ms can you do brief rundown or provide a link to the cell info? elehhhhna Mar 2015 #182

There's a couple of posts here..... msanthrope Mar 2015 #206

read for th we past hour elehhhhna Mar 2015 #222

Rudy was there. I think all three were involved. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #224

Problem with this video (and a lot of what appears in the US press) DanTex Mar 2015 #87

There was a much, much longer video on the web about a year ago TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #96

The only variable I've found about how people feel about this case DanTex Mar 2015 #101

The court system there is very, very strange. TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #106

I've dealt with Italian bureaucracy a bit myself. DanTex Mar 2015 #110

The extradition treaty was signed before Italy changed some major laws TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #116

Yes good talking to you. DanTex Mar 2015 #121

Just remember that it goes the other way, as well TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #127

Spot on re: how it is played out in the press JustAnotherGen Mar 2015 #136

Amanda has a strange personality that the Europeans don't seem to understand davidn3600 Mar 2015 #74

Well, in some cases behavior after a crime is telling. DanTex Mar 2015 #86

Knox's doing splits in a police waiting room is bizarre wordpix Mar 2015 #153

Well, she said she was doing yoga to try to calm her nerves TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #162

Also falsely implicating an innocent man is pretty bizarre... DanTex Mar 2015 #169

do you hang out w a lot of people who's friends were just murdered elehhhhna Mar 2015 #192

This is where I'm leaning too. DanTex Mar 2015 #83

Dershowitz is scum, but he knows when a murderer is caught. And he's right....there's more than msanthrope Mar 2015 #91

Agreed about Dershowitz. On both counts. DanTex Mar 2015 #93

Knox's PR firm has used the OJ/Bronco defense.....did you know there msanthrope Mar 2015 #122

I posted in another subthread, one thing this case reminds of is Lance Armstrong (oddly, perhaps). DanTex Mar 2015 #123

That's a very apt description. I've noticed a very anti-Italian vibe here from some msanthrope Mar 2015 #124

Seriously, Italy is not Iran. DanTex Mar 2015 #125

I disagree about the Bronco Defense, Furhman was an ardent racist bastard cop... that alone uponit7771 Mar 2015 #148

Furhman was a racist.....but not an evidence planter. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #150

My Bad, Furhman was accused BEFORE the OJ trial of tampering and the PA had to drop that uponit7771 Mar 2015 #152

Dershowitz is just opining on a case he hasn't bothered to dig into. pnwmom Mar 2015 #130

That's what this whole thread is doing also. DanTex Mar 2015 #133

Some of us are far more informed than Dershowitz clearly is. And he only has experience pnwmom Mar 2015 #139

Not sure about that. DanTex Mar 2015 #143

But he doesn't have credibility because he clearly knows very little about the differences pnwmom Mar 2015 #147

Or else he does and he just disagrees with your assessment. DanTex Mar 2015 #151

There have been three courts that looked at the evidence. pnwmom Mar 2015 #157

You seem to be misrepresenting the evidence in the same way I described above. DanTex Mar 2015 #165

Wow. Now I understand. You are getting your "facts" from a hate site. pnwmom Mar 2015 #170

I just googled it up. Are you saying they fabricated the whole questioning? DanTex Mar 2015 #172

And here's another thing that pushes me towards the "guilty column". DanTex Mar 2015 #160

Okay, I can't listen to that because my old computer's sound isn't working. pnwmom Mar 2015 #164

Hmm. DanTex Mar 2015 #166

only sure thing about dersh is that elehhhhna Mar 2015 #194

How did she manage to do it and not leave a single speck of evidence pnwmom Mar 2015 #129

She must not go back to those horrible courts. Dawson Leery Mar 2015 #4

Considering that the Italian legal system SheilaT Mar 2015 #5

Not going to happen... Oktober Mar 2015 #10

Any US official that would send her back to Italy should be run out of town. n/t cpwm17 Mar 2015 #12

The Amanda Knox case is an example of slut-shaming taken the most extreme degree wyldwolf Mar 2015 #13

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #23

BULLSHIT. alarimer Mar 2015 #24

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #27

Clean-up on aisle 3. The 'condemn Knox' group has found DU. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #25

MIRT's on the job. GGJohn Mar 2015 #29

Bravo, MIRT!!! nt MADem Mar 2015 #42

Solid work. Bonx Mar 2015 #72

that is very inappropriate G_j Mar 2015 #28

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #32

Agreed. Bonx Mar 2015 #60

I completely agree with what you wrote in the title of your reply. This is definitely "slut-shaming" StevieM Mar 2015 #63

No, it would never happen. wyldwolf Mar 2015 #66

If we don't return her, Italy will become an attractive destination for fugitives from US justice, Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #15

Plenty of people flee to Europe to escape extradition to the US. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #17

If we extradited, we would be saying that basic rights to a fair trial are unimportant. pnwmom Mar 2015 #30

Naaah. Our justice system gives one bite of the apple. They've been gnawing at Knox for years, MADem Mar 2015 #49

If they want to end our extradition treaty, then our murderers and rapists become LittleBlue Mar 2015 #58

It would be a much greater dishonor to send her back to that kangaroo court. Bonx Mar 2015 #62

Not only Italy, but any other country that doesn't want to extradite people DanTex Mar 2015 #88

John Kerry would absolutely love for this to somehow go away. Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #89

better we don't dishonor our Constitution. She has been tried and acquitted already. still_one Mar 2015 #102

Nobody is going to extradite Amanda Knox anywhere alcibiades_mystery Mar 2015 #16

If John Kerry agrees to an extradition request, she will be going to Italy (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #18

No, that's not how it works. She'd still have the right to contest geek tragedy Mar 2015 #20

If the court of causation signs off on this, nobody will ever see Amanda Knox again derby378 Mar 2015 #64

Italians won't even ask for extradition, this case is so flimsy and the geek tragedy Mar 2015 #19

Could be a big political hit against us no matter what davidn3600 Mar 2015 #33

Meh. Tabloid fodder at worst. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #38

You forget the Brits. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #44

I doubt that will be much of an issue either. geek tragedy Mar 2015 #46

beware. There is a group that often swoops in whenever Amanda Knox is mentioned... wyldwolf Mar 2015 #26

I remember that whole argument. I had read a lot about it at the time it CTyankee Mar 2015 #31

Yes, it's especially bad in the UK TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #40

I'm surprised she hasn't been on Dancing with the "Stars" yet underpants Mar 2015 #36

Other than raising money to pay for her attorney fees TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #39

That is as far from her personality as can be imagined. pnwmom Mar 2015 #53

Double Jeopardy is against our Constitution, and that is grounds for NOT honoring any extradition still_one Mar 2015 #55

It wouldn't be double jeopardy. It's the same case. DanTex Mar 2015 #84

From everything I have read your information is not correct still_one Mar 2015 #95

Those links deal with US law. This is the Italian legal system. DanTex Mar 2015 #99

US law protect US citizens. She is a US citizen in the US, and has already been tried and acquitted still_one Mar 2015 #100

In Italy, she's covered by Italian law. DanTex Mar 2015 #103

no way are we going to violate as U.S. citizens rights to honor Italian law still_one Mar 2015 #104

We'll see. But if she is found guilty, and isn't extradited, DanTex Mar 2015 #108

See Roman Polanski Johonny Mar 2015 #138

Depends on the specific treaty with the specific country. DanTex Mar 2015 #141

The 22 CIA agents who renditioned that cleric from Milan haven't been extradited riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #140

Italy didn't request extradition in that case. DanTex Mar 2015 #142

Yes I know. Was just addressing the point that a guilty verdict always means extradition riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #146

No, we do apply US Due Process considerations to extradition jberryhill Mar 2015 #204

Looks like they are going to make her sweat a few more days davidn3600 Mar 2015 #56

F**k Italy. Burn that extradition treaty LittleBlue Mar 2015 #57

Regardless of how you feel about her, it must be devastating to live with that hanging over closeupready Mar 2015 #61

And there will always be the crazies even here who could be out to get her, pnwmom Mar 2015 #65

Sure, I can see that. Who wants that kind of infamy following them through life? closeupready Mar 2015 #67

You can bet that the Kerchers will also go after any money she makes no matter what happens here davidn3600 Mar 2015 #71

Won't take years or that much legal money, just enough to get geek tragedy Mar 2015 #77

I think most of that money is gone TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #82

I hope we just keep her here. Heck with the Italian judicial joke yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #105

I don't know the truth about her, nor do I care particularly. 6000eliot Mar 2015 #78

Understand your apprehension on her innocence. yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #107

Yes, that's basically my view. She's not a good PR person for herself at all. closeupready Mar 2015 #117

She's an introvert and her own person, and she was never part of the cool crowd. pnwmom Mar 2015 #119

Knox incriminated herself, admitting she was present wordpix Mar 2015 #155

Do you know how many innocent people on death row were there because of false confessions? pnwmom Mar 2015 #158

Just to not let false statements stand. She made the confession after 2.75 hours. DanTex Mar 2015 #168

I never said that she had had four days without food, water, or an attorney. But I did say pnwmom Mar 2015 #171

Her statements were made after 2.75 hours of interrogation, at most. DanTex Mar 2015 #173

You couldn't be more wrong but I won't accuse YOU of lying. Just of being grossly misinformed. pnwmom Mar 2015 #174

You are right. I stand corrected. DanTex Mar 2015 #175

I am very impressed, DanTex. pnwmom Mar 2015 #177

No need to be impressed. Being wrong is easy :) DanTex Mar 2015 #179

Here's how I made my initial decision that there was more than enough reasonable doubt. pnwmom Mar 2015 #181

Wasn't there evidence that the break-in was faked? DanTex Mar 2015 #183

No, that was wrong, too. There was evidence of a burglary, yes, and broken glass. pnwmom Mar 2015 #185

I would think investigators can tell a faked burglary from a real one. DanTex Mar 2015 #186

The second jury DID decide that the burglary was not faked. Please read the report by Judges Hellman pnwmom Mar 2015 #188

About the lawyer, here is my current understanding: DanTex Mar 2015 #190

Yes, that is the police claim. But since they didn't follow their own law to record their pnwmom Mar 2015 #191

So it's under dispute. But, yes, the lack of video is a good argument. DanTex Mar 2015 #195

The police were recording all the telephone calls between Amanda and her family, pnwmom Mar 2015 #199

Also, I have to go right now, but I'm sure this will be discussed again here tomorrow. DanTex Mar 2015 #196

You're welcome, DanTex. See you later. n/t pnwmom Mar 2015 #200

OK, here's where I'm at. DanTex Mar 2015 #209

I kept meaning to get back to you with an explanation of the bra clasp riderinthestorm Mar 2015 #223

One last thing. Part of where I'm coming from here is that this whole case DanTex Mar 2015 #198

I'm not familiar with the Armstrong case, but I can see why there would seem to be parallels. pnwmom Mar 2015 #201

Guede was very weird. TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #202

Another question: what's with the changing alibis? DanTex Mar 2015 #184

Good question and thank you for asking. pnwmom Mar 2015 #187

Thanks for the link. DanTex Mar 2015 #189

wikipedia? Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Mar 2015 #163

Why Amanda Knox was Innocent with Retired FBI Steve Moore cpwm17 Mar 2015 #128

Stuff like this is what makes me think she's guilty. (I'm WRONG) DanTex Mar 2015 #154

I disagree, I think these two are making a good case for her innocence wordpix Mar 2015 #156

You disagree about that the accusation came after 2-3 hours and not 50? (I'm wrong about this) DanTex Mar 2015 #159

Maybe you could think about correcting this post, now that you know the truth about her interrogation. pnwmom Mar 2015 #178

Yes, I will. DanTex Mar 2015 #180

Even with the vast resources we have through the internet where news travels in a flash instant Wash. state Desk Jet Mar 2015 #167

Could it not be that the US public has been played by the US media? DanTex Mar 2015 #176

I don't know where you got that Dan Tex Wash. state Desk Jet Mar 2015 #197

For a decade, Armstrong was one of the most high-profile and best paid DanTex Mar 2015 #210

I know who lance is dan tex Wash. state Desk Jet Mar 2015 #219

I actually saw the end one of the tours he won from Paris. DanTex Mar 2015 #220

It is amazing and powerful. Wash. state Desk Jet Mar 2015 #221

There are pro-guilters and supporters of Amanda Knox in our media TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #208

No. The US media started off aping the British media, getting lots of attention pnwmom Mar 2015 #234

The Knox Guilters and Tabloid Victims never cease to amaze me. maxsolomon Mar 2015 #193

"The prosecution's narrative of the murder is patently absurd" Bonx Mar 2015 #211

Yeah! TexasMommaWithAHat Mar 2015 #218

Some legal discussion on the subject, by international law experts: elleng Mar 2015 #203

Thanks. I'd seen this before. There are different ways of interpreting the particular sentence that could pnwmom Mar 2015 #232

YES, THANKFULLY it's moot! elleng Mar 2015 #233