General Discussion

WillTwain

(1,489 posts)

260. Cheney negotiated U.S. energy policy in secrecy in 2000, did not trust that either.

Thu Mar 26, 2015, 07:50 PM

Mar 2015

As stated earlier. This is a matter of trust.

Neither of us is going to read or interpret the full TPP. Frankly, trade policy is very complicated.
So, we have a choice. We have two camps to follow. The first, the pro-TPP camp, includes Paul (Ayn Rand) Ryan, almost every national Republican, Faux news talking heads, former Reagan guys like Larry Kudlow, and President Obama (who has proven his willingness to whack the working class in the past - Cromnibus, chained C.p.I.).

In the other camp we have many of the most brilliant economic minds on earth, including Robert Reich and Joseph Stiglitz. Richard Trumka, the brilliant AFL-CIO leader and talkers like Thom Hartmann and Ed Shultz (ED is as good a labor journalist as you will find). If you can find a person that has lobor's interest in mind more than Richard Trumka, tell me who it is.

Based on the strength of the latter team and the president's demand of secrecy and fast-tracking, this is an easy choice. There are just too many stars lined up against the president. He has strange bedfellows.

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BREAKING: WikiLeaks Leaks TPP Draft!!! [View all] kpete Mar 2015 OP

and a big K & R! n/t wildbilln864 Mar 2015 #1

Going to take some time to read all that, but summary is Rex Mar 2015 #2

No, they want power OVER governments. Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #41

Hmmm...I am already under the belief they have power over the government(s). Rex Mar 2015 #49

Bingo. You got it MaggieD Mar 2015 #81

America is "exceptional," in that it has been coopted more than most BlueStreak Mar 2015 #277

Wow, great description of the republican platform. peoli Mar 2015 #109

They get to sue governments for unseen profits marym625 Mar 2015 #47

But do they get to make their own corporate tribunals? We already have 'pay for' prisons Rex Mar 2015 #54

La Rage marym625 Mar 2015 #59

Most excellent, madam! May I?.. johnnyreb Mar 2015 #86

Arch Enemy...hell yeah!!! U4ikLefty Mar 2015 #99

Great marym625 Mar 2015 #115

They organize their own secret tribunals. bvar22 Mar 2015 #237

That is someone's interpretation treestar Mar 2015 #124

Did you read it? marym625 Mar 2015 #128

Article II 21 Selection of Arbitrators? treestar Mar 2015 #135

First, you're right marym625 Mar 2015 #140

It looks like all our laws, Environmental eg, would mean nothing. Iow, a Foreign Corporation would sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #84

Well the IMF and the WTO have always wanted to rule the world. Rex Mar 2015 #85

Yes, and everywhere the IMF/World Bank has been, disaster for the people can be found. But success sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #90

world bank. marym625 Mar 2015 #132

Excellent summation of what I also believe is happening. AllyCat Mar 2015 #194

I've wondered from the beginning what happens to the first country Buns_of_Fire Mar 2015 #104

It's considered bad politics to renege on agreements. randome Mar 2015 #136

This isn't really about "countries" Aerows Mar 2015 #198

No. I don't. randome Mar 2015 #200

So national sovereignty means nothing to you? Rex Mar 2015 #203

I don't see it that way, although I understand the concern. randome Mar 2015 #209

Yes but the problem arises from the simple fact that they don't need us. Rex Mar 2015 #215

It is my opinion Aerows Mar 2015 #205

They oppose democracy while gnashing their teeth about voting TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #239

That's it, in a nutshell Art_from_Ark Mar 2015 #257

At least there is no wiggle room here, you either support 'free trade' or you support Rex Mar 2015 #204

I can't fathom Aerows Mar 2015 #206

Well the authoritarian sect is all for it, no surprise there Rex Mar 2015 #208

It doesn't do that, from what I can see. randome Mar 2015 #211

And who gets to decide what's 'bogus' about a given environmental law? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #219

Well, if we want international cooperation with trade... randome Mar 2015 #220

hope away LiberalLovinLug Mar 2015 #238

Obama characterized the TPP as a rewrite of NAFTA. randome Mar 2015 #246

I don't smoke anything Aerows Mar 2015 #252

Revolution is critical. nt Zorra Mar 2015 #3

This is important. Faryn Balyncd Mar 2015 #4

Traitors Rule Our Country billhicks76 Mar 2015 #39

Pretty much what they are doing marym625 Mar 2015 #48

We have to attack the root problem, campaign donations, Super PACs, and the Revolving Door! Dustlawyer Mar 2015 #117

That's not a root. That's a twig. Scootaloo Mar 2015 #251

Snark is easy, what's the big problem then and what is your solution? Dustlawyer Mar 2015 #268

It's not a personal attack, Dustlawyer. Nor snark Scootaloo Mar 2015 #269

Bookmarking to read later. City Lights Mar 2015 #5

NOW are we allowed to complain about it? cui bono Mar 2015 #6

We're supposed to love it just like the republicans do. arcane1 Mar 2015 #7

The uglican concritters don't read anything anyway erronis Mar 2015 #40

republicans don't love it. they oppose it more than democrats do. n/t pampango Mar 2015 #133

The TPP apologists will tell you that this isn't a signed version and that rhett o rick Mar 2015 #12

+1000 BeanMusical Mar 2015 #46

Want to lay any bets marym625 Mar 2015 #52

No bets marym625. nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #144

...^ that 840high Mar 2015 #72

Bingo. +1 million LondonReign2 Mar 2015 #139

no, we must awoke_in_2003 Mar 2015 #16

But it's just a draft! And Julian Assange is wanted on 8 continents! And most of the oceans! Doctor_J Mar 2015 #42

He's also wanted on all the planets of the solar system. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #50

Though there is some debate about the validity of the warrent issued for Pluto nt dflprincess Mar 2015 #53

Lol, true. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #61

I've heard that's because Pluto still refers to itself as a "planet" Art_from_Ark Mar 2015 #105

Wouldn't you have to read it first? treestar Mar 2015 #123

Did you miss all the leaks that have happened along the way? cui bono Mar 2015 #282

Aaaand - this is just one reeking chapter. djean111 Mar 2015 #8

K&R. pacalo Mar 2015 #9

Kick, kick, kick. hifiguy Mar 2015 #10

imo this just codifies whats already happened. elehhhhna Mar 2015 #20

Thank you kpete for all your hard work here. This is an important story. nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #11

kpete rules. nt Snotcicles Mar 2015 #19

There are a handful of posters here that are indespensible. kpete is high on the list. nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #22

I agree, kpete keeps the important, important marym625 Mar 2015 #130

then so does kpete Mar 2015 #158

I suspect their long-term goal ... GeorgeGist Mar 2015 #13

I've thought about that long and hard. Countries or what ever takes their place as groups of rhett o rick Mar 2015 #26

Yes. Without some sense of belonging to a certain group how would TPTB keep us fighting cui bono Mar 2015 #70

K&R!!!!!!!!!!! newfie11 Mar 2015 #14

The NYT is even reporting on it. octoberlib Mar 2015 #15

k&r awoke_in_2003 Mar 2015 #17

I have noticed there is always a brief interlude before they descend, most likely in order to get Dragonfli Mar 2015 #24

I've heard rumors that they hang out at another site to plot their attacks. rhett o rick Mar 2015 #27

Yep, if it's the site that I'm thinking about then it's more than a rumor. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #66

I think it's childish, like the school yard. "let's all gang together and beat up the smart kid." nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #96

It sure is. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #98

The sockpuppet army must get their ducks arranged, er, in a row. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #114

Isn't amazing how there seems to always be initial silence LondonReign2 Mar 2015 #141

and those who don't want to read anything til it's signed, sealed and delivered. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #25

Which will apparently be 4 years after implementation. stillwaiting Mar 2015 #31

So much for "transparency," huh? Buns_of_Fire Mar 2015 #43

jeez, i didn't know that part. so the folks here at DU who keep saying we have to wait ND-Dem Mar 2015 #71

Some of these people remind me of brainwashed cultists. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #94

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Mar 2015 #18

Kick and Recommended Liberalynn Mar 2015 #21

k&r. looks like a lot of the things they've been predicting would happen. a big clusterfuck, ND-Dem Mar 2015 #23

Where are all the Obama and TPP defenders now? WillTwain Mar 2015 #28

I'm definitely an Obama supporter maxrandb Mar 2015 #190

Let the groupies follow WillTwain Mar 2015 #196

With the exception of Ed Schultz maxrandb Mar 2015 #213

Nicely put. randome Mar 2015 #214

I see the comment "All this hyperbole is equivalent to "Death Panels in the ACA"." as hyperbole. WillTwain Mar 2015 #217

The ACA was done out in the open in full public view. SomethingFishy Mar 2015 #231

And this will be too maxrandb Mar 2015 #233

Did you vote for Mitt? WillTwain Mar 2015 #262

So you are saying that what is written in the bill isn't really SomethingFishy Mar 2015 #281

Spoken like a true believer. cui bono Mar 2015 #284

How did they feel about Cheney negotiating a secret energy policy in 2000? WillTwain Mar 2015 #261

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #256

WiKiLeaks peddles as much BS as the Gubermint! Cryptoad Mar 2015 #29

And McCorporations! Don't forget about them! Rex Mar 2015 #62

K and R big time glinda Mar 2015 #30

My first question, do we believe the leaked document of 2014 or 2015? Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #32

What difference does that make? cui bono Mar 2015 #285

You have made my point, opinions are posted when the final focument has not been released Thinkingabout Mar 2015 #286

Adam Smith: "People of the same trade seldom meet together, johnnyreb Mar 2015 #33

Bingo! ... If Adam Smith were alive in today's USA, he would be in the Warren/Sanders wing of the... Faryn Balyncd Mar 2015 #51

+10. How little changes from so long ago, mind blowing. Appreciate the exerpts. appalachiablue Mar 2015 #78

And people wonder why Karl Marx called himself a follower of Adam Smith. happyslug Mar 2015 #149

Well in order to talk about Smith, you have to talk about the social safe net. GOPers can't do that Rex Mar 2015 #222

IF this were to protect the Planet then great but %400 doubtful on that one. glinda Mar 2015 #34

What a horror show LittleBlue Mar 2015 #35

Call your Senators, Representatives and Whitehouse to express your opposition to this global Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #36

Someone did a post here about FAXING your comment to a Rep. because they will receive and possibly appalachiablue Mar 2015 #76

I heard on Thom Hartmann that for every one person who calls their rep/WH, they represent Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #119

That's very good to know- appalachiablue Mar 2015 #169

My level of pissed is off the charts. nt Curmudgeoness Mar 2015 #37

Thanks! Bradical79 Mar 2015 #38

Huge K&R! Quackers Mar 2015 #44

On a mostly serious note, do you think that when one of the foreign/transnationals actually Doctor_J Mar 2015 #45

nah, from what I've seen, people will just say, "It's God's will." nt antigop Mar 2015 #55

And by then, most of us will have learned the joy of genuflecting to our betters n/t deutsey Mar 2015 #134

It will be interesting to see the reactions. silverweb Mar 2015 #58

I expect some kind of "3D chess" analogy or some other way to explain away all the bad... Veilex Mar 2015 #91

It will take a while to unfold. silverweb Mar 2015 #95

What revolution? Rex Mar 2015 #63

It costs tens of thousands to file a suit. joshcryer Mar 2015 #113

Are you fucking kidding me? LondonReign2 Mar 2015 #146

No. joshcryer Mar 2015 #148

No, the problem is not with companies Aerows Mar 2015 #197

Exxon Mobil nets about 30 billion a year. a lawsuit costing 100 grand would set them Doctor_J Mar 2015 #234

IT is dishonest to pretend we the people can challenge a monopoly. Rex Mar 2015 #242

Exxon would not use this to sue the US. joshcryer Mar 2015 #243

They could sue any governmental entity JackRiddler Mar 2015 #265

You running for King of Rationalizations? JackRiddler Mar 2015 #264

Great job, WikiLeaks! Now, go get the 28 pages!!! KansDem Mar 2015 #56

At least we can count on Democratic presidential contenders to lead the fight Karmadillo Mar 2015 #57

If one of them is Bernie Sanders, then "Yes." Maedhros Mar 2015 #195

Note: I do not consent to this corporate power grab, giveaway, etc... midnight Mar 2015 #60

Big K and R, let the disinfectant shine. morningfog Mar 2015 #64

K&R. Sent another round of emails to my legislators opposing the TPP. Overseas Mar 2015 #65

Huge K & R Thespian2 Mar 2015 #67

On Prime Minister Harper: blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #77

Of Course Thespian2 Mar 2015 #82

Time to raise some hell NBachers Mar 2015 #68

Damn straight Oilwellian Mar 2015 #88

K&R. nt OnyxCollie Mar 2015 #69

The New TTP World Unknown Beatle Mar 2015 #73

And Obama is STILL fighting tooth and nail to get this monstrosity passed into law. blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #74

http://www.thecommentator.com/system/articles/inner_pictures/000/005/415/original/obama-laughing.jpg blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #75

Just wait until aspirant Mar 2015 #79

K&R Big Time! 2banon Mar 2015 #80

This is going to break the consensus for Free Trade. leveymg Mar 2015 #83

Question ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #87

This message was self-deleted by its author MFrohike Mar 2015 #103

"Questions will not be tolerated." NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #110

Bottom Line: We get to pick who we trust - Robert Reich or President Obama WillTwain Mar 2015 #221

ISDS is boilerplate. joshcryer Mar 2015 #112

Thank you for that reasonable and informative response ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #118

I don't know about you, but I'm not a big fan of the idea of our corporations being able to go after F4lconF16 Mar 2015 #192

The US isn't the multinationals that headquarter here, they are largely our enemies TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #126

Wrong. ICSID handles US related disputes. joshcryer Mar 2015 #137

Wrong about what? That the US isn't the multinationals that headquarter here? TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #181

Under ISDS the US would force ICSID tribunals. joshcryer Mar 2015 #275

The US is not the corporations that headquarter here. The US isn't the captured government TheKentuckian Mar 2015 #279

The US has never lost an ISDS case. Not one. nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #127

Fascinating. joshcryer Mar 2015 #138

ISDS is to our advantage.....and while I think Warren is correct to question msanthrope Mar 2015 #142

"ISDS is a red herring" joshcryer Mar 2015 #147

So, again ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #159

Because maybe constantly screwing over other countries isn't in the best longterm interests of Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #223

Aren't US legislators responsible for ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #229

Demagoguery. joshcryer Mar 2015 #274

Many believe that the expansion under this chapter of the ISDS cali Mar 2015 #180

Peru, right? nt msanthrope Mar 2015 #278

Indeed it is. And "the key issue on which we are consulting is whether the proposed approach pampango Mar 2015 #145

They want to be the victims of a huge conspiracy treestar Mar 2015 #125

Amazing! 6 1/2 years ago ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #172

The needs for the evidence to point to conspiracies treestar Mar 2015 #187

And the solution ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #201

Yes. The NYT has verified it. See my OP cali Mar 2015 #178

Which OP ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #202

Was there a special on strawmen this week? LondonReign2 Mar 2015 #189

You tell me. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #227

I'm still waiting, with curiosity, for the TPP apologists to show up Jim Lane Mar 2015 #89

Same here. Where are they tonight? Where are the DU "Free Traitors"? Elwood P Dowd Mar 2015 #92

There are a couple in this thread and they pretty much are babbling their usual nonsense. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #97

Yes, because asking questions ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #173

Anonymous leaks are remarkably consistent with early reporting. WillTwain Mar 2015 #235

Because they are (likely) all coming from the same source ... 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2015 #250

Cheney negotiated U.S. energy policy in secrecy in 2000, did not trust that either. WillTwain Mar 2015 #260

"Strange Bedfellows" aspirant Mar 2015 #270

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz WillTwain Mar 2015 #271

K&R n/t Michigan-Arizona Mar 2015 #93

Assange is a rapist!!1!1! U4ikLefty Mar 2015 #100

I went over to freerepublic to see what they think.. grasswire Mar 2015 #101

I can't imagine they'd support this if they know about it. drm604 Mar 2015 #108

Some DUers refuse to believe this info Omaha Steve Mar 2015 #102

LBN post: Hissyspit Mar 2015 #106

Kick and R. BeanMusical Mar 2015 #107

K&R McCamy Taylor Mar 2015 #111

K&R! This post deserves hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Mar 2015 #116

Perhaps someone could boil down all this text to one or two points why people should be worried. randome Mar 2015 #120

This is all about bashing the President and Democrats, it is not about a trade deal. tridim Mar 2015 #131

So are you in favor of the TPP? LondonReign2 Mar 2015 #176

I thought Global Trade Watch did just that.. G_j Mar 2015 #154

A mechanism is in place to sue when disputes arise. randome Mar 2015 #155

Why? Because it is nothing but Obama Bashing 101. It's not about a trade deal. tridim Mar 2015 #157

I know, I know, I was simply being ironic or...something. randome Mar 2015 #160

ugh.. G_j Mar 2015 #162

Yes, people have been hyper-overreacting for years... tridim Mar 2015 #164

why don't you just say you are in favour of NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP G_j Mar 2015 #165

Because I'm not. tridim Mar 2015 #166

that's not worth a serious response G_j Mar 2015 #168

You say you want enlightenment? Start reading this and then form your own opinion on it. Autumn Mar 2015 #156

My opinion is that the TPP is a mechanism that concerns corporations. randome Mar 2015 #161

Not my job to convince you of anything. Autumn Mar 2015 #163

Spreading bullshit is most definitely spreading something. tridim Mar 2015 #167

Now we get to the crux of your displeasure with the discussion of the TPP. Autumn Mar 2015 #170

It's not much of a discussion if I say 'Aye' and you say 'Nay'. randome Mar 2015 #171

Not my job to be on defense either. Autumn Mar 2015 #174

. randome Mar 2015 #175

k&r Starry Messenger Mar 2015 #121

K&R deutsey Mar 2015 #122

No wonder President Obama calls TPP critics ''Conspiracy Theorists.'' Octafish Mar 2015 #129

Quote from Adam Smith: LongTomH Mar 2015 #218

I for One.... Sparhawk60 Mar 2015 #143

A transition to a corporate world government that will hasten the flow of profit to the top 1% PatrickforO Mar 2015 #150

The recipe for global fascism... cascadiance Mar 2015 #151

ISDS favors "us"? Babel_17 Mar 2015 #152

K & R GoneFishin Mar 2015 #153

So does this mean Medicare can't negotiate drug prices because valerief Mar 2015 #177

Yes Aerows Mar 2015 #199

Any safety regulations--on lead in kids' toys, for example--can now be destroyed by lawsuit Wella Mar 2015 #179

And those lawsuits can be refuted by a tribunal. It works both ways. randome Mar 2015 #182

Which destroys sovereignty by making this private (world) tribunal the real arbiters of laws Wella Mar 2015 #183

I, personally, don't have much of a problem with that. randome Mar 2015 #184

It's not a personal issue for you to have a problem with Wella Mar 2015 #185

This piece of shit TPP IS NOT GOING TO UNITE THE WORLD. Elwood P Dowd Mar 2015 #186

How is it at our expense, though? randome Mar 2015 #188

You already said you have no problem losing your sovereignty Rex Mar 2015 #225

The entire tribunal setup is designed to prevent abuse. randome Mar 2015 #228

Thanks for the link I will check it out. Rex Mar 2015 #241

There is only ONE goal for the tribunals: bvar22 Mar 2015 #247

How does giving all the power and control to an elite group of non-governing Rex Mar 2015 #224

Well, the U.N. is involved in the tribunal selection. randome Mar 2015 #230

An Appeals Process???? bvar22 Mar 2015 #240

I'm hoping there is an appeals process. It would make sense to have one. randome Mar 2015 #245

Which means that the sovereignty of this country no longer exists. You may be fine with that sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #207

I don't have a problem giving up some of our sovereignty. randome Mar 2015 #210

Fortunately what you don't have a problem with, isn't relevant. As I said, the 'war' can be sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #216

Those that don't mind being indentured servants will never understand, it seems. Rex Mar 2015 #226

Revolutionary war? Taxation without representation? Aerows Mar 2015 #255

I would hope people on DU can read so, no, I don't expect them to be stupid. randome Mar 2015 #266

Were you the one Aerows Mar 2015 #272

I never said Democracy was outdated. randome Mar 2015 #276

I will agree with you on one point LiberalLovinLug Mar 2015 #283

Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #191

Many work for, few work against. We are what we do, everyday. raouldukelives Mar 2015 #193

Lovely Piece of Legislation d_legendary1 Mar 2015 #212

Stepping ever closer to world wide fascism. eom JEB Mar 2015 #232

A simple way to see things: chknltl Mar 2015 #236

Obama Is All In On This colsohlibgal Mar 2015 #244

You do realize there is currently nothing to prevent corporations from doing business anywhere. randome Mar 2015 #248

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #259

Hillary helped draft the TPP, so I don't expect much help from her. Maedhros Mar 2015 #263

I know I'm supposed to be unquestionably enraged but I cannot bring myself to do it. great white snark Mar 2015 #249

Invariably. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #258

so it is basically more bureacracy for the bureaucrats WDIM Mar 2015 #253

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #254

If we lose our country aspirant Mar 2015 #267

kick rec Teamster Jeff Mar 2015 #273

K&R. woo me with science Mar 2015 #280