General Discussion

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)

236. Well, let's see ...

Thu Mar 26, 2015, 08:35 PM

Mar 2015

Has anyone here seen the finalized version of the agreement? No, they haven't, because it hasn't been finalized yet.

Where did I say no one can ask questions? In fact, that's part of the problem here - no one is asking questions They're simply yelling about "This abomination! This monstrosity! This horrendous act of betrayal!" There's a good reason people are describing the deal in hyperbolic generic terms - because they don't understand the details they've read and, as a direct result thereof, can not frame their outrage in terms of specific provisions, what they mean, how they will be implemented and enforced, or what their impact will be.

There is a "secret negotiation phase" for all such treaties. Do you know how many such treaties the US is a signatory to? Did you ever raise your voice about any or all of those secret negotiations? If you believe there is something nefarious about closed-door meetings, why haven't you raised your concerns about any of them before now?

"Can't ask questions when the document is leaked because it is too complicated for any of us plebeians to understand."

That's not even close to what I've said. What I have pointed out is that int'l law is a very complex area. So when I see someone on a message board claiming to comprehend that complexity within thirty minutes of reading the Wikileaks draft, I am extremely doubtful that they know what they're talking about. Again, that's why you're not seeing any detailed analysis here on DU - because those claiming to comprehend the document simply don't.

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There is no way to reconcile the TPP with helping working Americans [View all] MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 OP

Not just the country anymore, global free trade is here and we will eat our serving of it Rex Mar 2015 #1

our president's free gift to the democrats who voted for him nt msongs Mar 2015 #2

It will be the "gift" of the US government to all of us, regardless of merrily Mar 2015 #78

TPP is a Nation Destroyer. And that's why Obama and his pals have desperately tried to hide blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #3

Yup. The transference of sovereignty to corporations. hifiguy Mar 2015 #174

The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks Own And Control The Politicians That Own And Control Us cantbeserious Mar 2015 #227

Hillary Clinton was an architect for TPP and they want me to vote for her. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Katashi_itto Mar 2015 #4

Maybe Hillary will say, Enthusiast Mar 2015 #201

:) Katashi_itto Mar 2015 #208

Free Trade has had some positive effects too. bvar22 Mar 2015 #214

And the day THAT happens, you will see flying pigs hifiguy Mar 2015 #229

Do you have any links to this? I googled "Hillary tpp architect" and came up with nothing direct uponit7771 Mar 2015 #271

let me be the first to congratulate you on another 300+ recommended post. Old and In the Way Mar 2015 #5

You like the TPP? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #6

No no no, "Obama hates America and he is trying to destroy us!" is a good dodge! Rex Mar 2015 #9

He said what needed to be said. MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #19

I am confused here. sheshe2 Mar 2015 #26

What the #%*& are you talking about? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #28

You are forgetting again. Hmmm...you forgot a post about... sheshe2 Mar 2015 #41

Did he sign it with "TWM" or "Third Way Manny"?... cascadiance Mar 2015 #118

What a load of innuendo and unsupported allegations! bvar22 Mar 2015 #186

+1 Enthusiast Mar 2015 #203

FDR and JFK were both 1% by your definition. You need to understand it is a frame of mind before WillTwain Mar 2015 #191

What a shameful, dishonest, desperate smear. Marr Mar 2015 #193

The Obama Train Is Leading Us Off A Cliff WillTwain Mar 2015 #35

I'm confused by this post. stillwaiting Mar 2015 #87

Point of order Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #99

Okay in high school she used to identify as a Republican. stillwaiting Mar 2015 #101

Oh please. Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #103

At some point in her life Hillary Clinton spent time and energy for a Republican to be elected. stillwaiting Mar 2015 #104

Well good for you, skippy Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #110

If you find being a Republican in High Scool as "funny", bvar22 Mar 2015 #187

+1 Enthusiast Mar 2015 #205

Where are you, BJ. bvar22 Mar 2015 #212

Wait Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #220

Ooooo. bvar22 Mar 2015 #224

Meh, was appropriate for the occasion. Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #230

Good one. +100 nt Andy823 Mar 2015 #234

You DO know that when you are 19 and committ a crime bvar22 Mar 2015 #233

Sure Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #239

Your post has absolutely no relevance to either this thread, bvar22 Mar 2015 #240

You got an alert on this. immoderate Mar 2015 #246

Tedious. Bobbie Jo Mar 2015 #248

Boo-yah!!! Major Hogwash Mar 2015 #252

This message was self-deleted by its author Vattel Mar 2015 #258

Not a single R has said no to this Omaha Steve Mar 2015 #7

+1000! sheshe2 Mar 2015 #8

If only it had something to do with Obama. I don't expect him to sign it. Rex Mar 2015 #10

I just found this.... sheshe2 Mar 2015 #18

I know SheShe2, he really does get dragged through the mud. Rex Mar 2015 #24

I thank you Rex. Tears and Hugs. Whoosh, I cry a lot sheshe2 Mar 2015 #33

No matter what happens, we will hang in there together. Even if it came down to just you and me. Rex Mar 2015 #39

Dayum.... sheshe2 Mar 2015 #47

Mathews also called Bernie a relic from the 60s so do not give him too much credit. WillTwain Mar 2015 #37

He also swooned about GWB looking "manly" Art_from_Ark Mar 2015 #288

Race has less to do with their hatred than liberalism WillTwain Mar 2015 #44

Nope. sheshe2 Mar 2015 #50

Being black just helps them facilitate the rage WillTwain Mar 2015 #52

And the right-wingers really hit on Jimmy Carter back in his day Art_from_Ark Mar 2015 #289

Hillary is right, there is a vast right-wing conspiracy. WillTwain Mar 2015 #290

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #217

"Please stay on topic." sheshe2 Mar 2015 #219

Do you tell all posters that? bvar22 Mar 2015 #226

I think I may know one... sheshe2 Mar 2015 #228

Well, you thought Hillary had never been a Republican, bvar22 Mar 2015 #242

excuse me? sheshe2 Mar 2015 #251

Excuse me if I'm busting your bubble, but this is his administration. hedda_foil Mar 2015 #22

He's been playing rope a dope with the GOP for months now. Rex Mar 2015 #25

Given that our President has already forced three Bush "free" trade agreements MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #38

You know what, I kinda felt that from the moment I met you. Rex Mar 2015 #43

I am so sick of the he is playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers mentality WillTwain Mar 2015 #45

He has been out-foxed by Mitch and John!!!!????????????? sheshe2 Mar 2015 #56

I do not agree with the results, but they, not Obama, got their wishes. WillTwain Mar 2015 #58

Playing Chess? bvar22 Mar 2015 #221

Hell ya bvar22, now you are talking WillTwain Mar 2015 #223

Denial. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2015 #135

Zombies WillTwain Mar 2015 #138

Finally, WE THE PEOPLE, (thanks to Wikileaks) get to know as many details as POTUS. Luminous Animal Mar 2015 #12

Cake? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #17

Indeed. Luminous Animal Mar 2015 #40

Don't forget that the overwhelming opposition to the TPP forced them to finally 'allow' some members sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #29

I trust the Democrats, like Ron Wyden and Elizabeth Warren who have been warning us about sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #27

You'll notice ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #42

So Elizabeth Warren is out of her league? MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #46

Again, Manny ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #53

Could doesn't mean only that she doesn't know. morningfog Mar 2015 #88

So, to be clear, are you claiming that Senator Warren... MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #107

You can't talk to a court reporter like that! DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2015 #177

Why do you always find it necessary ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #179

LMFAO ...I can't believe I used to take you seriously. L0oniX Mar 2015 #284

It does not take a scholar to know that a treaty that subordinates our laws to a tribunal judged by Vincardog Mar 2015 #54

No, it doesn't take a scholar at all ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #57

Ignore the point and post your spin. Do you support the TTP? IF so why do you think Corporations Vincardog Mar 2015 #59

I have not read the finalized version of the TTP. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #63

While you are waiting they are destroying democracy. Your complacency is astounding. Vincardog Mar 2015 #64

Yes, of course they are. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #67

It is also amusing to watch the reliable "outrage-squashers" poo-poo any and morningfog Mar 2015 #94

Obviously some people really aren't qualified to give an opinion Autumn Mar 2015 #120

When it is all a done deal, the poo-poo-ers will say we have to wait toi see how its implemented. morningfog Mar 2015 #121

Or they will just say it serves us right for picking on the President. Autumn Mar 2015 #123

You never really loved him!!! QC Mar 2015 #131

Curses!! You have found me out and discovered what a fickle person I am! Autumn Mar 2015 #167

I bet the president breaks down in tears when he comes here QC Mar 2015 #213

I have already been told we are spreading FUD. Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Autumn Mar 2015 #133

Such a "writer" that could take on such an OP, should have a complete mastery of italics Dragonfli Mar 2015 #129

Have you seen this OP? Autumn Mar 2015 #169

No I haven't, but I am heading over there right now to read it. /nt Dragonfli Mar 2015 #171

I've stated that I haven't read it. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #172

But you have. Your opinion is that it is too complex morningfog Mar 2015 #181

That is not what I've said at all. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #184

Keep going. Therefore, their questions, concerns morningfog Mar 2015 #185

Questions and concerns are natural. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #188

"Let's wait until it is passed to see what's in it". SCREW THAT. GoneFishin Mar 2015 #232

This is beyond complacency WillTwain Mar 2015 #145

That or complicit they are incapable of responding to reality. Vincardog Mar 2015 #149

Wilfull ignorance WillTwain Mar 2015 #150

Agreed that explains their condescending tone... Vincardog Mar 2015 #151

The TPP is not a passing outrage G_j Mar 2015 #176

It gets dredged up every so often ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #190

speechless.. G_j Mar 2015 #196

Do you really think the country is moving in the right direction? WillTwain Mar 2015 #200

Sweet. You'll be able to know its content four years after its been in effect LondonReign2 Mar 2015 #115

It's the negotiation process ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #182

Pot calling the kettle black WillTwain Mar 2015 #143

Where did I suggest ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #173

You made no suggestion WillTwain Mar 2015 #180

THANK You! n/t whathehell Mar 2015 #204

Ah shit. I am out of fire extinguishers here, sheshe2 Mar 2015 #68

Please tell us why you are in favor of allowing tobacco companies to sue governments for eridani Mar 2015 #69

Where did I say I was in favor of any such thing? NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #71

You spoke about giving TPP a chance, and it strongly enhances the ability of corporations-- eridani Mar 2015 #72

Again - where did I say anything ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #73

You said that no merely literate and rational adult could possibly undertstand the leaked info eridani Mar 2015 #77

After all, it's just the "outrage of the week", per Nance hatrack Mar 2015 #105

Blindly following "our betters" has been a disaster. WillTwain Mar 2015 #144

Again, I said no such thing. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #206

Then you really didn't mean this? "Who knew that DU was so full of experts on international law!?" eridani Mar 2015 #255

Again, I said nothing remotely like that. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #256

Silly straw man. You don't have to know everything about the drafts eridani Mar 2015 #257

I like the pivot from "you haven't seen the TPP" to "you can't possibly understand it!" morningfog Mar 2015 #92

Yes, the word salad is pretty obvious, as is the back-tracking and deflection. djean111 Mar 2015 #97

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #117

No shit. It's pathetic. /nt Marr Mar 2015 #195

Well, let's see ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #236

Explain this to me as if I were a third-grader. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2015 #136

Most treaties are negotiated in secret. It's the final product that gets voted on. randome Mar 2015 #141

Yet... it is not secret from the corporations writing it. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2015 #142

Trade deals are always negotiated in private. NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #175

Some people are smarter than others, intuitively understanding what a lifetime of denial cannot teach WillTwain Mar 2015 #139

#1, your premise is a Strawman, bvar22 Mar 2015 #244

I never argued the point ... NanceGreggs Mar 2015 #254

Everybody is running gaga over this supposed Wikileaks draft... Historic NY Mar 2015 #286

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #140

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #216

This is the best that anyone that supports the TPP can offer in the way of rhett o rick Mar 2015 #146

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Trillo Mar 2015 #156

This is a very insipid post. Maedhros Mar 2015 #158

Robert Reich knows way more about the TPP than POTUS and hates it. WillTwain Mar 2015 #192

Heh. Our buddy hasn't gotten 300 recs since MIRT stepped up Number23 Mar 2015 #222

Manny's OPs getting a sizable number of recs really seem to upset some people. Autumn Mar 2015 #268

Manny, what is your take on the SCOTUS? Can we afford to lose that? jwirr Mar 2015 #11

That is a rock and a hard place, ain't it. We lose our Democracy either way... Luminous Animal Mar 2015 #13

What does that have to do with a treaty that savagely attacks the 99%?nt MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #14

What it has to do with the TPP is that both issues are equally important and we may end up having jwirr Mar 2015 #20

Voting for the lesser of two evils is one thing MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #21

Isn't that what a discussion board is all about? I have never hidden the fact that I do not think we jwirr Mar 2015 #23

You lost a long time ago. DeSwiss Mar 2015 #93

If I must awaken by electing a R then I will awake to the death of my disabled daughter because jwirr Mar 2015 #113

Whether a Republican or Hillary is elected, Maedhros Mar 2015 #159

So good lay down and give up. I will not. jwirr Mar 2015 #160

Well, no, actually you are. Maedhros Mar 2015 #164

That is certainly your right to do so. As is my right to do otherwise. liberal_at_heart Mar 2015 #66

Oh I agree but we act as if these issues are not all hooked together. They started with raygun and jwirr Mar 2015 #114

As I have said if voting for a Democrat no matter what is what you feel is best then do so. liberal_at_heart Mar 2015 #178

No we can't, so we need a GREAT DEMOCRAT to run for the WH so we can go out and enthusiastically sabrina 1 Mar 2015 #32

I don't think that any of our good Democrats support this POS, right? I mean, yanno? NYC_SKP Mar 2015 #15

Self delete MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #48

So we should not sign that corporate give away.... midnight Mar 2015 #16

It's Class Warfare! mckara Mar 2015 #30

Helping its class. RiverLover Mar 2015 #86

A certain "inevitable" candidate has strongly supported TPP RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #31

Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #51

The following post by Manny was a TERRIBLE hide, bvar22 Mar 2015 #231

Certain posters are jumping in minutes after an OP RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #253

Here is Andrew Raposa, Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts State University in Westfield Westfield Rex Mar 2015 #34

Thanks Manny for getting this issue out into the open Joe Turner Mar 2015 #36

It depends where you are in the percentage don't it? zeemike Mar 2015 #49

As long as Americans want cheap goods from Asia... joshcryer Mar 2015 #55

Funny .. . markpkessinger Mar 2015 #60

Pick up the nearest anything. joshcryer Mar 2015 #61

The fact that Asian-made merchandise is just about the only thing available to purchase . . . markpkessinger Mar 2015 #62

It is what it is. joshcryer Mar 2015 #65

What I support is refusing to allow corporate motherfuckers to sue democratically elected-- eridani Mar 2015 #70

ISDS heavily tilts lawsuits in our favor. joshcryer Mar 2015 #74

"Our" favor? Whatchu mean "we" kemosabe? eridani Mar 2015 #76

The US. joshcryer Mar 2015 #79

It costs governments money to be able to fight the suits eridani Mar 2015 #80

Under ISDS the loser pays. joshcryer Mar 2015 #82

Corporations challenging any democratically determined law should not be allowed, period n/t eridani Mar 2015 #84

They can do that anyway. joshcryer Mar 2015 #85

If that were true, why the skyrocketing trade deficits with signatory countries in other eridani Mar 2015 #154

That has literally nothing to do with lawsuits. joshcryer Mar 2015 #259

It has to do with corporate power n/t eridani Mar 2015 #262

Sure. Change the judges, empower the SEC. joshcryer Mar 2015 #263

Cheap goods have been coming from Asia for 50+ years Art_from_Ark Mar 2015 #81

Intellectual property theft has been going on too. joshcryer Mar 2015 #83

Has a single politician spoken about a basic income/living wage/negative income tax? stillwaiting Mar 2015 #91

Bernie Sanders supports basic income. joshcryer Mar 2015 #95

I love your thinking on the issue, and I agree it is needed. stillwaiting Mar 2015 #96

I believe it will happen. joshcryer Mar 2015 #98

Why aren't people esp. here discussing this looming reality. I saw the 2013 Oxford Martin report appalachiablue Mar 2015 #197

Because irrelevant issues like TPP take the stage. joshcryer Mar 2015 #264

Basic income will be brought up by only Bernie as you say and it's critical to discuss now. appalachiablue Mar 2015 #282

The "from Asia" part isn't what most Americans care about having as a part of that statement... cascadiance Mar 2015 #119

What do you think TPP means? joshcryer Mar 2015 #265

I think what it really is is a "Toilet Paper Party" for the 1%ers here... cascadiance Mar 2015 #275

TPP= Toilet Paper Party AND Trans Pacific Partnership- truth! Shumer supports the increase of appalachiablue Mar 2015 #279

Yep, we need to sell more of these at rallies. TPP=Toilet Paper Party & Trans Pacific Partnership cascadiance Mar 2015 #280

Indeed! Put that up in posts on DU now re 'TPP', the real bipartisan, global 1% corporate appalachiablue Mar 2015 #283

Yeah, whenever I go shopping brentspeak Mar 2015 #183

You don't even have to think about it. joshcryer Mar 2015 #261

And its a CRAPPY reality pushed on to us by the 1% that can and SHOULD be undone! cascadiance Mar 2015 #276

You are kidding, right? whathehell Mar 2015 #207

Do the test. joshcryer Mar 2015 #260

Still not conclusive evidence regarding your point. n/t whathehell Mar 2015 #266

K & R AzDar Mar 2015 #75

K&R So interesting to watch the usual suspects come out and criticize this post. Scuba Mar 2015 #89

Several seem to be missing MannyGoldstein Mar 2015 #111

Interesting fact here Manny, if you post in a thread you don't get called for Autumn Mar 2015 #122

They have been disseminated and include (incredibly) that corporate tribunals are there to favor Dragonfli Mar 2015 #132

It boggles the mind doesn't it? Autumn Mar 2015 #134

never thought about that part of the strategy grasswire Mar 2015 #155

^This^ Zorra Mar 2015 #112

It is painful. RiverLover Mar 2015 #124

And exhausting. And that is the objective. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #210

+1 an entire shit load. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #209

K&R DeSwiss Mar 2015 #90

Lipstick, Manny. Lipstick. Octafish Mar 2015 #100

+1,000,000,000. And, I guess a Brazilian wax. Which is what we are getting, really. djean111 Mar 2015 #102

Care to explain why? DanTex Mar 2015 #106

K&R! marym625 Mar 2015 #108

Obama is out to get us. Where have I heard that before? n/t pampango Mar 2015 #109

Red Herring Populist_Prole Mar 2015 #147

How so? "The TPP is yet another awful assault against the 99% by the wealthy and their paid help in pampango Mar 2015 #148

Those who support the TPP in effect support global fascism! cascadiance Mar 2015 #116

Your subject line itself is a straw man. randome Mar 2015 #125

It's also a treaty regulating governments and what they may do Fumesucker Mar 2015 #273

I find it absolutely amazing that there are those that, when faced with information regarding Dragonfli Mar 2015 #126

So what is there about the 'environmental override' in the TPP? randome Mar 2015 #128

You are wasting your efforts with me, I can read so I will not be convinced to ignore Dragonfli Mar 2015 #130

Well said, Dragonfli. smokey nj Mar 2015 #137

+1 You nailed it. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #211

Thank you. Zorra Mar 2015 #218

I'd be against your first paragraph alone treestar Mar 2015 #152

Reading would help you with that. Dragonfli Mar 2015 #153

You're not quoting any part of it treestar Mar 2015 #189

NAFTA has that authority, and uses it. bvar22 Mar 2015 #238

that's not from NAFTA, it's from Public Citizen treestar Mar 2015 #267

Here's how it's done, you get a bunch of sheep together..... DeSwiss Mar 2015 #249

now you're just rec whoring Man from Pickens Mar 2015 #127

The OP statement is false on its face uponit7771 Mar 2015 #157

It appears rather axiomatic to me, care to explain how you reach such an odd conclusion? /nt Dragonfli Mar 2015 #162

I don't believe the OP speaks for working people at all, not one bit uponit7771 Mar 2015 #163

It will affect working people as he suggests, so, does it matter if he is some sort of Dragonfli Mar 2015 #166

True, it will affect working people ... My point is I don't think the OP speaks for working people uponit7771 Mar 2015 #168

I can only speak for myself, but I assure you it is this sort of corporate trade deal that is an Dragonfli Mar 2015 #170

Weren't the other predictions regarding Obama and deals non eventful too!? I mean like the uponit7771 Mar 2015 #269

Get beyond Obama, this trade deal is separate from him Dragonfli Mar 2015 #272

OK, beyond Obama the issue is still the same... too many calls of Wolf on here for uponit7771 Mar 2015 #277

You have failed to prove that "the OP is 100% False". bvar22 Mar 2015 #215

This post is false also, I've already posted my reasons it's false. uponit7771 Mar 2015 #270

Seems to me that some people sadoldgirl Mar 2015 #161

TPP will turn the keys to the country and the 50 states over to multinationals with no GoneFishin Mar 2015 #165

I agree completely. FiveGoodMen Mar 2015 #194

The TPP will only further enrich the 1% at the expense of the rest of us. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #198

K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Mar 2015 #199

Our system is thoroughly broken & owned by an unfettered oligarchy bent on ruling the world. mother earth Mar 2015 #202

Kicked ibewlu606 Mar 2015 #225

There's untold millions in speaker fees, (payola) awaiting. Scrabbleddie Mar 2015 #235

President Obama realFedUp Mar 2015 #237

Any regulation Flatpicker Mar 2015 #241

It isn't complicated. Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and many more Democrats cheapdate Mar 2015 #243

Are you familiar with the recent Korean "Free Trade" Treaty? bvar22 Mar 2015 #245

That's a bold claim. cheapdate Mar 2015 #278

Free trade is a libertarians wet dream. So no I don't think so. Rex Mar 2015 #281

I cannot reconcile how democrats support free trade. WDIM Mar 2015 #247

"Citizen's United" was an anti-democratic paradigm shift. Scrabbleddie Mar 2015 #250

K&R for the hideous truth. woo me with science Mar 2015 #274

No shit. "TPP contains a provision for bailing out derivative losses." woo me with science Mar 2015 #285

ok, All of the real progressives have convinced me...I am voting Republican for the 1st time since72 Old and In the Way Mar 2015 #287