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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
132. Leviticus 20, which starts with forbidding sacrificing children...
Tue Mar 31, 2015, 05:20 PM
Mar 2015

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 11:34 PM - Edit history (3)

Leviticus 20 starts out forbidding a lot of "sins" that were part of the religious ceremonies of other nations in the mid-east. It requires people to actually SEE the sin being committed, which means it had to be done in the OPEN. Thus the acts forbidden in Leviticus 20 appears NOT to be sins in themselves, but sins for they involved REJECTING Israel's God in favor of the Pagan gods of the tribes around Israel (and embracing such tribes as one own, and rejecting Israel i.e. Treason more then blasphemy).

Please note Paragraphing was invented in the Dark Ages, attributed to Charlemagne. thus when this was written it was one long "paragraph" not the multitude of paragraphs used in modern Translations:

Punishments for Sin

1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, 5I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.

6“ ‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

7“ ‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. 8Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

9“ ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.

10“ ‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

11“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14“ ‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16“ ‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

17“ ‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

18“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.

19“ ‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

20“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.

21“ ‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

22“ ‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations.

25“ ‘You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those that I have set apart as unclean for you. 26You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

27“ ‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’ ”

http://biblehub.com/niv/leviticus/20.htm


Just a comment that many of the "Sexual" acts outlawed above, appeared to have been "Religious" acts among the various tribes around Israel. i.e sex NOT for sex sake, but as part of some sort of religious ceremony, thus Leviticus starts with a ban on Child Sacrificing and end on a ban on "Mediums". In between you see a ban on sex with their children, their parents, other close relatives AND animals. Some of these acts appear to be reenacted as part of the religious ceremonies of tribes (For example the people of Moab were viewed as descendants from Lot and his two daughters, thus a ceremony of the people of Moab included sexual acts between "Father Lot" and his "Daughters&quot .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_%28biblical_person%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moab

Edomites Claim decent from Abraham, but via Issac's son Esau NOT Jacob, who was the father of Joseph and his brothers who were the founders of the Ancient Israeli tribe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edom

In Egypt the Pharaohs were known to marry their own sisters, thus such relationships were know to the Ancient Israelis and again part of the Egyptian Religious Culture.

Marduk was the chief god of Ancient Babylonia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk

Just a comment that much of Leviticus 20 appears to be attacks on people who worship other religions (and by that reject one's own country and relatives i,e, more like Treason then Blasphemy).

I keep forgetting about the Philistines. The Philistines lived in what is now Gaza, an extremely rich agricultural area of Sinai Peninsula, but with NO ports, but easy beaches to operate small ships out of. i.e a lot of fishing boats but few if any cargo ships. The bible uses the term Philistine quite broadly. Most Scholars believe (and agreeing with some of the first translators of the bible in the days of Classical Greece) that prior to the division of the Kingdom of Israel at the death of King Solomon, the term Philistine applies to the people living on the coast, but were of semitic/Egyptian people. At the time of the break up of the Kingdom of Israel, the "Sea people" invaded Egypt, these were defeated and settle in Gaza by the Egyptians, but these were greek speaking people with connections to Crete and Greece.

In Greek legends, about the same time as the "Sea People" were hitting Egypt, the "Dorian Invasion" was occurring in Greece, destroying the Greece that had fought the Trojan War. Athens did NOT fall to that Invasion, but Sparta would claim it was part of that invasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

The "Dorian Invasion" also occurred about that same time period,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

One of the problem for this time period, roughly 1200-950 BC, is that you had a break down in society, trade roots were disrupted as Iron replaced Bronze (But Bronze remain an important metal), climate became colder so that people moved about, and formed into bands and broke up. Conquered new lands, then were absorbed by the locals, or were defeated and settled by their conquerors (as in the case of Egypt and Gaza) into areas were populations had collapsed but could be rebuilt.

Thus Moses left Egypt, wondered the Sinai, at his death the Israelis moved into the West Bank, and stayed there and came out on top as they and other local tribes fought over who lived where, till David took over. At Solomon's death the short period of stability came to an end, Israel broke into two kingdoms.

In Greece a similar situation was occurring, but given they had used a hieroglyphic alphabet that was forgotten as times went bad, the details of the changes were forgotten till the Greeks adopted the Semitic Phonetic Alphabet about 700 BC.

The Destruction of Thera of the West Coast of Modern Turkey, was involved and it would have caused more problems in Greece and Modern day Turkey then is the more distant Egypt and Palestine (It is believed to have lead to the destruction of the Hittite nation).

Thera destruction is set about 1600 BC, a little to early but it is a factor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c01a3fd2b88ba970b-400wi

Another factor is climate change. The following Chart I found an a denier page, but it shows when temperatures did drop over the last 5000 years, and the key to understanding the collapse of society of abut 1200-950 BC(and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the Dark ages 350-950 AD, is the DROP in tempertures compared to previous periods and for that reason I am using this chart):

?w=720

Notice the drop in temperature after about 400 AD, and the previous drop in the 200s. Both were periods that Rome came under attack AND Roman Resources disappeared. The movement of the Barbarians and Roman finding new resources in the 300s can be seen in the previous decline that was brief but enough to cause all types of problem for Rome. Temperature peaked about 200 BC and then went into a slow decline, a decline that Rome could handle and did for it was a spike and warm spikes cause little problems.

Research has indicated that rapid declines in temperatures have lead to Crisis, not a upward spike follow by a decline to "normal" temperatures, nor an increase (but we have had NO increase like we are having today, which is a different story).

Another chart showing temperatures peaking about 1200 BC (about 3200 years before the present which is how the chart is set up) and then steady from 1000 BC (3000 years BP on the Chart) till about 200 BC



https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/doomed-planet/2010/05/dear-mr-abbott/

Just a comment that roughly 1200-900 BC, you had a sharp decline in world wide temperatures and thus a change in crop outcomes (i.e. people had to move to find some place to farm or raise their herds of sheep or cattle or die of starvation). And out of that mess came the states of Ancient Israel and Judea. The people did not know what was happening, but they had to react to it, those that reacted the best survived and that reaction is reflected in their religion and given the success of the Jews the Bible,

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Are you expecting extremist Christians to read the Bible? get the red out Mar 2015 #1
I know, how silly of me. comes from an insufficient caffeine intake today. niyad Mar 2015 #2
Or any fundie preacher stealing $s from his flock erronis Mar 2015 #18
Don't expect fundie Christians to pay any attention to Numbers and Leviticus Yupster Mar 2015 #61
They're hypocrites though. They throw out the dietary stuff while hammering on Lev 18:22. nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #75
They do have an explanation for that. However, whenever I post it, I get treated as though I merrily Mar 2015 #81
They always claim the prohibition against homosexuality is still active, while the other stuff isn't nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #82
There is an answer for that, too, but, it's time consuming to give and, as stated, I've learned merrily Mar 2015 #84
The one NT passage they can cite is Romans 1:27-32. But those are Paul's words, not Christ's. nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #85
The position I referred to is not a one passage argument or I would have cited it. merrily Mar 2015 #90
DAYUM! calimary Mar 2015 #3
ouch! another question: guillaumeb Mar 2015 #4
thank you. funny how their jesus is so different from the one most of us have heard of- niyad Mar 2015 #6
Well, indirectly.. Jesus did speak about abortion, Motown_Johnny Mar 2015 #26
He stated that he came to fulfill and perfect the Law. guillaumeb Mar 2015 #29
... awoke_in_2003 Mar 2015 #47
the bible book they redacted guillaumeb Mar 2015 #57
Actually no. Check this out... nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #76
Years ago, I encountered a translation of the bible that omitted Hosea 13:16 arcane1 Mar 2015 #5
whenever I hear someone using the bible as a basis for whatever, I ask which one of the niyad Mar 2015 #7
Exactly.. sendero Mar 2015 #19
What a humane and enlightened assemblage of fairytales. hifiguy Mar 2015 #8
The talmud does specifically reference abortion, actually. Kber Mar 2015 #9
My late MIL was no scholar but she certainly knew about this. She said to me.... Hekate Mar 2015 #11
it also tells you what to do if your dog violates your cleaning lady--it's prepared for EVERY MisterP Mar 2015 #34
What's the prescribed "remedy"? Just curious. nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #77
Oh those Hebrews.. mountain grammy Mar 2015 #35
A minister's job is to give a sermon in safeinOhio Mar 2015 #10
I knew it... ileus Mar 2015 #12
Numbers says all we need to know... uponit7771 Mar 2015 #13
Numbers, chapter 5 explains how a priest should do an abortion perdita9 Mar 2015 #14
When the day cometh that it become immoral and criminal to force a woman to carry an unwanted Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #15
Great references from the one reference they say they will always stand behind Jon82 Mar 2015 #16
Most fundamental Christians Cryptoad Mar 2015 #23
Matthew 18:6 says nothing about harming a child ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #17
There are many Bibles versions. Cryptoad Mar 2015 #22
there are plenty of 'iffy' things if you pick and choose ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #31
Beyond taking liberty, I would call it lying. I read the referenced passages. Shrike47 Mar 2015 #116
I was trying to be nice about it, but you are Right,,,,,, nt Cryptoad Mar 2015 #125
There are over 41,000 Christian Sects,,,,, it unfair Cryptoad Mar 2015 #20
no offense angrychair Mar 2015 #25
Matthew 18:6 sulphurdunn Mar 2015 #21
It really is.....but then, mentioning the significance of the fact....... WillowTree Mar 2015 #27
Yes, and there is certainly sulphurdunn Mar 2015 #93
I just can't get over the sacrificing the 1st born . Fla Dem Mar 2015 #24
you think this is about sacrificing ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #32
Consecration is not the same as sacrifice. colorado_ufo Mar 2015 #33
The firstborn was to be dedicated to the service of God, not killed. merrily Mar 2015 #78
1st born animals too? How does that work? nt Fla Dem Mar 2015 #94
My Bible says something different in Numbers 5:21. appleannie1 Mar 2015 #28
I aslo recall ending someone's pregnancy being a lesser punishment Bradical79 Mar 2015 #30
Such death of a fetus is mentioned a couple of times in the bible happyslug Mar 2015 #40
Only one of these verses is from the New Testament which is the only part former9thward Mar 2015 #36
See my cite below, I had to stop after looking up the first three "Cites" happyslug Mar 2015 #39
Oh the context argument again phil89 Mar 2015 #43
If you throw out phil89 Mar 2015 #41
I'm not throwing out anything. former9thward Mar 2015 #44
Cannibalism of live children? A Simple Game Mar 2015 #37
You really thought the verses quoted in the OP were real? former9thward Mar 2015 #45
Perhaps not word for word, but yes I do think they are really from the bible. A Simple Game Mar 2015 #50
I have a Bible. former9thward Mar 2015 #53
To be honest I was mainly concerned with the cannibalism. A Simple Game Mar 2015 #62
For the sake of honesty, okasha Mar 2015 #80
The Old Testament is full of violence because that era in human history former9thward Mar 2015 #89
I'm sure they cooked them first. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #49
Well to be honest it does say the children should eat their parents too. n/t A Simple Game Mar 2015 #51
Sounds like a nice book. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #52
That would be Ezekiel 5:10 and a couple of others. Cerridwen Mar 2015 #65
What a bad set of bibical quotes... happyslug Mar 2015 #38
And you think phil89 Mar 2015 #42
Bible hub is just what it sounds like. Cerridwen Mar 2015 #60
Actually it depends on the translations, is it still in copyright? happyslug Mar 2015 #131
Leviticus does not say that oberliner Mar 2015 #46
It's all serious distortion trying to make it say what they want to be able to claim that it says. WillowTree Mar 2015 #48
I would agree with that oberliner Mar 2015 #99
which version? niyad Mar 2015 #96
Take your pick oberliner Mar 2015 #100
there are some 500 versions out there. niyad Mar 2015 #101
Leviticus is the basis of the anti-gay thing, right underpants Mar 2015 #54
Leviticus 20, which starts with forbidding sacrificing children... happyslug Mar 2015 #132
May God bless and keep you all... onpatrol98 Mar 2015 #55
Here's a picture depicting exactly how much I care what the bible or any other religious text says PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #56
I tried turning the paper over guillaumeb Mar 2015 #58
That side depicts how much our government should care. PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #59
nice guillaumeb Mar 2015 #63
that is exactly as it should be. niyad Mar 2015 #106
The OP is lying. Matthew 18:6--see text below: Wella Mar 2015 #64
The image in the OP is wrong about Matthew 18:6. Cerridwen Mar 2015 #66
I'll check out the others, verse by verse. But the OP and the image are lying Wella Mar 2015 #67
The image has some issues. The OP is mistaken, not lying. Cerridwen Mar 2015 #68
so what about the other 11 citations? hobbit709 Mar 2015 #83
I suspect that the author of the poster is taking most of the verses quoted out of context or just jwirr Mar 2015 #92
again, to which of the some 500 versions out there do you refer? niyad Mar 2015 #105
The bible, a tabloid book of tales chosen for political impact of that day! n/t RKP5637 Mar 2015 #69
+1000 smirkymonkey Mar 2015 #70
Hey. Niyad. sheshe2 Mar 2015 #71
wow. PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #72
oh my, had not realized. thank you so much for letting me know. niyad Mar 2015 #107
This message was self-deleted by its author sheshe2 Mar 2015 #73
Thanks to all who went to the trouble of debunking this! Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #74
It is not completely debunkable because the Bible does say some of those things. At least, merrily Mar 2015 #79
The King James version isn't that good a translation. winter is coming Mar 2015 #87
The description of that battle was not a matter of translating 1 or 2 words or a filling in one merrily Mar 2015 #88
of course, since the bible was not originally written in english, and most of us niyad Mar 2015 #126
I did specify exactly which version I meant and please see also Reply 88. merrily Mar 2015 #130
you mean, thanks to the people who were using one of the other 500 versions? niyad Mar 2015 #98
Okay. Well you know most people probably have no idea of the full Gospel canon. Rex Mar 2015 #86
my favourite comment about the bible: "it is amazing that white europeans follow niyad Mar 2015 #97
LOL! Rex Mar 2015 #114
and then, of course, we have the thomasine and marian gospels. niyad Mar 2015 #108
Kickin' Faux pas Mar 2015 #91
K&R! marym625 Mar 2015 #95
RIghtwing asses hate abortion because it is a woman making a choice on her own NoJusticeNoPeace Mar 2015 #102
that is exactly correct. niyad Mar 2015 #103
That is it exactly! smirkymonkey Mar 2015 #129
I'm soooooooo tired of the freakin' bible. nt valerief Mar 2015 #104
especially when it is being used to promote legislation in a secular nation. it would be amusing niyad Mar 2015 #109
Yeah. Too bad the blind can't see their own reflection. (No offense to visually valerief Mar 2015 #124
So sorry, but WHY was the earlier Jesus thread locked, but this one thrives? Atman Mar 2015 #110
I have no idea to which thread you are referring. must have missed it. niyad Mar 2015 #111
Might have been because Willie P posted it. Atman Mar 2015 #112
thank you for posting the link. I had not yet seen it. niyad Mar 2015 #113
Oh, and if this all Biblical and God and stuff...why can't they get the date right? Atman Mar 2015 #115
new vacation schedule? n/t ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #117
HE IS RISEN! Atman Mar 2015 #118
oh, so because we try to superimpose our solar calendar ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #119
"People like me." Atman Mar 2015 #121
essentially... ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #122
BWHAHA! So now it's "disdain." Atman Apr 2015 #135
Quit knocking the Roman Empire..... happyslug Apr 2015 #133
So, Jesus goes fishing one day. Atman Mar 2015 #120
Now THAT is a good walkin' on water joke... ProdigalJunkMail Mar 2015 #123
oh dear, you almost owed me a keyboard. niyad Mar 2015 #127
my favourite walking on water joke: niyad Mar 2015 #128
So Jesus and Moses go golfing one day Yupster Apr 2015 #134
always liked it. back when I first heard it, "but he thinks he's arnold palmer" niyad Apr 2015 #136
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