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HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
47. the issue so far as the maddow report goes is that most of that difference can be explained
Fri May 4, 2012, 05:07 PM
May 2012

by differences in experience, skill, occupation, education or hours worked. As the quote Maddow used went on to explain. But she neglected to include that part.

Here's how the Census bureau does their comparison. They take a job category. They pull out all full-time workers and divide them into men & women. Then they average the incomes of both groups. That's how they get the "averages." The Bloomberg study is the *same* study using the *same* Census data, they just look at more finely-divided job categories.

The adjustments come in when you find that, on average, men in occupation X have e.g. more years of experience, work more hours, etc. And this is perfectly understandable because women are more likely than men to take a career break for child-rearing, to work fewer hours because of child-care responsibilities, to be supported by spouses for some period, etc.

This is not discrimination by employers, it's a cultural fact. It may be problematic but it's not the blatant discrimination Maddow keeps harping on.

I watched the clip. In the first half Maddow keeps beating at the 77% statistic in a completely black & white way. She spends several minutes talking about discrimination, especially by republican legislators, as if discrimination were the only relevant fact relating to these statistics & if non-discrimination in hiring and pay were not *already* the law of the land, at both federal and state levels.

When a male guest tries to talk about the adjustments, she cuts him off with her repetitious "women get paid less for doing the same work." But it's not so black & white as she insists, & she's smart enough to know that. So I call her dishonest on this matter.

In the second half she discusses the adjustments with a female guest, but in a quite dishonest way intended to blur the fact that adjustments reduce that 23% gap *significantly* and to leave the impression that blatant discrimination is the main reason for the gap.

To give you an example of the misleading way the adjustments are discussed, Dr. Hartmann refers to a GAO study and says "Even when you put everything into the regression analyses to make that gap go away, you still can't explain 20% of it."

The impression the casual listener will get is that even after adjustments there's still an inexplicable 20% gap. But that's not what the GAO study found. 20% of 23% = 4.6%, i.e. 5%. The portion of the wage gap that can't be explained = about 5%.

But most viewers will go away with an entirely different impression, especially after Hartmann & Maddow spend the end of the hour harping on discrimination.

Another fact: the lower you go down the wage scale, the smaller the wage gap between male & female workers. The "gap" is largest among the most privileged classes, and that also makes sense: because women in those classes are more likely to have the privilege of taking time off, then jumping back into their careers -- still at excellent salaries, though not as excellent as they would have had had they not taken the break.

Upper-class women are also most likely to work in the areas where pay can be fiddled to accomodate "stars". Much less the case in low-wage work and most public sector work. Or in low to mid-level women-dominated fields like child-care and teaching.

Maddow is an upper-class woman & the issues she is passionate about are those that reflect her class interests.

At the lower end of the wage scale, pay equality takes a back seat to low pay generally (for both men & women), job destruction, etc.

e.g. public sector workers and public school teachers are under attack, both sectors women dominated & with a higher percentage of minority women than others. How many times has Maddow done a good piece on these trends compared to her pieces on wage differentials, war on women, etc.?

I haven't watched her much, but I've never seen her focus on these kind of issues, or on specifically class issues.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Is Rachel Maddow sincere? [View all] hfojvt May 2012 OP
she gets things wrong sometimes Enrique May 2012 #1
I believe she cares about relaying the unvarnished truth. AtomicKitten May 2012 #2
if she cared about unvarnished truth, she wouldn't have quoted the clip selectively. HiPointDem May 2012 #3
Her point - that a gap exists - seems to be lost on the pickers of nits AtomicKitten May 2012 #8
23% v. 5% = not a nit. It's a huge difference. HiPointDem May 2012 #11
mathematically, sure. but politically, morally, and otherwise, no. unblock May 2012 #44
Then why not say "Women doing the same work/hours with the same qualifications, experience, on HiPointDem May 2012 #49
just to be clear, then, we're no longer talking about maddow getting it wrong in any way. unblock May 2012 #60
There may indeed be some form of discrimination going on beneath that 18%, but it's nothing HiPointDem May 2012 #65
the 77% figure may still be relevant if we want to rectify past wrongs, unblock May 2012 #71
no, she's under no obligation to present a full picture, but in that case, how is what she does HiPointDem May 2012 #74
foxnews is different in at least 2 respects: unblock May 2012 #79
it's not "comparable work" though. It is just an aggregate. hfojvt May 2012 #80
i don't think we have enough information to say how much of it is due to discrimination unblock May 2012 #82
For the longest time I didn't know what a nit was. LiberalLoner May 2012 #26
It won't work. She is the Queen of the Undead. Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #35
Lesbian vampire?! AtomicKitten May 2012 #41
I remember when that aired. Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #45
HORROR!!! AtomicKitten May 2012 #63
and people who only watch her show hfojvt May 2012 #12
I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt Aerows May 2012 #37
sometimes it's somerby who commits the howler unblock May 2012 #4
yeah that's what the first commenter thought too hfojvt May 2012 #15
well i think there's direct discrimination and indirect discrimination unblock May 2012 #46
All TV talking heads are limited in their "honesty" just1voice May 2012 #5
Maddow did mention these other studies DearAbby May 2012 #6
"discriminated against" = systematic lower pay for women v. men for doing the same work with the HiPointDem May 2012 #23
At a lot of companies Aerows May 2012 #38
"At a lot of companies" = more true for the top 20% than the bottom 80%. Yes, at the top HiPointDem May 2012 #52
It still is a big deal Aerows May 2012 #56
no, it's a big deal to some in the top 20%. like maddow. personally, i could care that she gets HiPointDem May 2012 #58
I'm female Aerows May 2012 #61
I'm also female. I'm not "miffed" that men have lost ground, I'm angry, outraged, that the entire HiPointDem May 2012 #62
Let me state this plainly Aerows May 2012 #64
And let me state *this* plainly. No one is disputing the principle of equal pay for equal work, HiPointDem May 2012 #66
Why do you talk adjustments? DearAbby May 2012 #69
statistical adjustments. it *is* partly a mathematical problem, even if you don't understand it. HiPointDem May 2012 #72
Just sounds like a way to justify paying women less than men. DearAbby May 2012 #88
sorry it's so difficult for you. HiPointDem May 2012 #90
because some adjustments are logical hfojvt May 2012 #81
Just more reasons to justify paying women less than men. DearAbby May 2012 #89
just to be clear then hfojvt May 2012 #92
You know she was being dishonest joeglow3 May 2012 #55
Bob Somersby is a PUMA One of the 99 May 2012 #7
interesting theory hfojvt May 2012 #16
It's not a theory One of the 99 May 2012 #48
She went through charts EC May 2012 #9
I read your link and then watched the half hour segment of Rachel's show... Spazito May 2012 #10
the real issue is that once you adjust for differences in women's employment patterns, the HiPointDem May 2012 #17
The burden of bearing children still falls on women. Right now, only women can have babies. And LiberalLoner May 2012 #21
Agreed. But that's a different issue than some kind of systematic discrimination by employers HiPointDem May 2012 #25
It certainly happens Aerows May 2012 #39
"It happens" does not a pattern make. And what happens to upper-tier corporate workers HiPointDem May 2012 #53
Well Aerows May 2012 #59
and the fact that you've never held such a position speaks to a difference in our class positions. HiPointDem May 2012 #67
No, I disagree... Spazito May 2012 #28
the issue so far as the maddow report goes is that most of that difference can be explained HiPointDem May 2012 #47
You are dismissing the equal pay for equal work.... Spazito May 2012 #51
The studies in question did not look at "assistant A" and "assistant B". They aggregated data HiPointDem May 2012 #54
In aggregate, they did.... Spazito May 2012 #57
no, they averaged the wages of thousands of people in a broad job category. Like "manager". HiPointDem May 2012 #68
Having read your other posts in this thread... Spazito May 2012 #70
good. i didn't realize that *me* changing *my* position was the only possible reason to discuss HiPointDem May 2012 #73
"the gap is reduced to almost nothing." kiva May 2012 #76
I think 5% is very relevant hfojvt May 2012 #83
You should always take these cable news hosts with a grain of salt RZM May 2012 #13
Your concern for the left is duly noted. Pisces May 2012 #14
maddow = "the left"? HiPointDem May 2012 #19
You've been here four years WilliamPitt May 2012 #20
Dude doesn't understand why the supreme court forbids mandatory school prayer, for one. Warren DeMontague May 2012 #32
If you don't want to call him a concern troll today, Quantess May 2012 #50
I think he meant that I am worse hfojvt May 2012 #84
Wow - what a nasty attack screed. Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #18
That was nasty? WilliamPitt May 2012 #22
"Maddow is sold as a former Rhodes Scholar" Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #29
The Daily Howler still exists? Larkspur May 2012 #24
If you are concerned, bring it to her attention. When she makes a mistake, she admits it. She mfcorey1 May 2012 #27
Apparently, Joe Screed already covered that. Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #31
Here's the thing. hfojvt May 2012 #86
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2012 #30
Do I? hfojvt May 2012 #87
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2012 #93
The gap is real veganlush May 2012 #33
more sincere than this Somerby that you quote. WI_DEM May 2012 #34
Mr. Somerby belongs on Fox "News". Dawson Leery May 2012 #36
My wife would not think you were sincere. I know that for a fact. See ... JoePhilly May 2012 #40
If You Want To Trash Rachel, Take It To The Gun Control/RKBA Group. Paladin May 2012 #42
Sincere is not the important question. Rachel is a paid employee of CenaW May 2012 #43
Does the Pope wear a funny hat? Nt. Mc Mike May 2012 #75
I think there is legitimate debate to be had about the numbers Bjorn Against May 2012 #77
Your posts makes no sense. shcrane71 May 2012 #78
Rachel Maddow is one of the smartest and most sincere people of all the political shows. Tennessee Gal May 2012 #85
your blanket statement is not factual. and that's not even what maddow said. HiPointDem May 2012 #91
She fell into "show biz" accidently.. Take a look at the annabanana May 2012 #94
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