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Iran that is more secular and less zealous. The fanaticism has done nothing but oppress their own people and compound tensions in the area.
Their fears are NOT unfounded. No one can ignore a neighbor who calls for one's death. Americans know what can happen.
Israel is not the only target of the religious extremists or demagogues of Iran, the Ayatollahs have blood on their hands since they took over. Much of that blood is Iranian.
Some of it is on our hands.
The terms of the framework Obama and others set on Iran are the harshest ever set for any nation. Anything that goes wrong, the agreement says, Iran will 'be default' be judged and then sanctioned - many even military action will be taken:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110228400
Sorry for the swipe at Netanyahu if you supported him. I don't live there. But TOD and TPV have an analysis of the agreement and as Obama details it in the video at the link, it's harsh. He has also said precisely what I believe you are trying to convey here, that we don't trust Iran for precisely the reasons you give. I'm sure many who voted for Netanyaho voted for him out of a sense of self-defense and not hatred of Palestinians.
I hope that secularists in Israel will take some heart in that and not fall for those who would terrify them if there truly is a way out of the morass they have been for so long. This kind of rhetoric is a demonization of many peoples just before a strike is made.
Not all hearts in those nations agree with the extremists in either:
I've seen other videos of Israelis and Palestinians trying the one on one approach, main;y by those who have lost their family members to terror and bombings, etc. to get peace in the region. I guess they are in the ranks of the Israeli left.
Of course the MIC media that infects virtually every nation doesn't give their views air time. Instead, the propagandists monopolize media with fear and hatred. And I'm not even talking about the people who live in the war zones.
AFAIK, Israel has been in a constant state of war from agreements ending, made twenty years before as the Ottoman Empire collapsed, but Jews had been returning since 1881, but really, they sought to return since they were run out by the Romans:
Zionism and the British mandate
The first wave of modern Jewish migration to Ottoman-ruled Palestine, known as the First Aliyah, began in 1881, as Jews fled pogroms in Eastern Europe.[100] Although the Zionist movement already existed in practice, Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl is credited with founding political Zionism,[101] a movement which sought to establish a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, by elevating the Jewish Question to the international plane.[102] In 1896, Herzl published Der Judenstaat (The State of the Jews), offering his vision of a future Jewish state; the following year he presided over the first World Zionist Congress.[103]
The Second Aliyah (1904–14), began after the Kishinev pogrom; some 40,000 Jews settled in Palestine, although nearly half of them left eventually.[100] Both the first and second waves of migrants were mainly Orthodox Jews,[104] although the Second Aliyah included socialist groups who established the kibbutz movement.[105] During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour sent the Balfour Declaration of 1917 to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, that stated that Britain intended for the creation of a Jewish homeland within the Palestinian Mandate.[106][107]
The Jewish Legion, a group primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted, in 1918, in the British conquest of Palestine.[108] Arab opposition to British rule and Jewish immigration led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of a Jewish militia known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi, or Stern Gang, paramilitary groups later split off.[109] In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration.[110] The population of the area at this time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11%,[111] Christians 9.5%.[112]
The Third (1919–23) and Fourth Aliyahs (1924–29) brought an additional 100,000 Jews to Palestine.[100]
Finally, the rise of Nazism and the increasing persecution of Jews in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This was a major cause of the Arab revolt of 1936–39 in which the British killed 5,032 Arabs and wounded 14,760,[113] and resulting in over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled.[114] The British introduced restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine.[100] By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population.
Israeli Independence:
In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from Mandatory Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.
On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the newly formed United Nations resolved that a committee, United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine".[118] In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the UN General Assembly,[119] the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem ... the last to be under an International Trusteeship System".[120] On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 (II).[121] The Plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the Report of 3 September 1947.
The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan. The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine rejected it, and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.
On the following day, the 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets.[124] The Jews were initially on the defensive as civil war broke out, but gradually moved onto the offensive.[125] The Palestinian Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled.[126]
On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel".[127][128] The only reference in the text of the Declaration to the borders of the new state is the use of the term, Eretz-Israel...[129]
The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War;[131][132] Contingents from Yemen, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Sudan joined the war.[133][134] The apparent purpose of the invasion was to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state at inception, and some Arab leaders talked about driving the Jews into the sea.[135][136][137] According to Benny Morris, Jews felt that the invading Arab armies aimed to slaughter the Jews.[138] The Arab league stated that the invasion was to restore law and order and to prevent further bloodshed.[139]
After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established.[140] Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. The United Nations estimated that more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled by or fled from advancing Israeli forces during the conflict—what would became known in Arabic as the Nakba ("catastrophe"
...[141]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
Of course, none of this is news to you, I'm just posting it for reference. Researching this from a secular view, I came to the conclusion that the creation of Israel as it now exists was not just imperialism on the side of the British, but what happened as great empires rise and fall. I'm not sure of the adjective great in application to any empire, but it's rather foolish to deny the centuries of caliphates which were empires in the area.
I suspect Israelis live and breathe the reality of empires that once existed there, and those trying to restore themselves such as the Daesh are doing now. Jews are a minority in that part of the world. When I say they have been a constant state of war, it is not as slander on either side. But a statement of fact. They have never really been accepted, just a look at the Wikipedia entries, which are most likely the weakest as they can be edited, show everything is disputed.
There is fear on all sides and unjust ideologies and religious extremism at work in the region. And Iran's wild statements - which I will emphasize again are from religious RWNJs that drone on constantly and hopefully not held by thinking people in general - give a distorted view. IMO.
Israel has adopted, rightly or wrongly, a fortress mentality because of this. And Netanyahu was reelected from the fears of Israelis combined with horrific experiences, both there and elsewhere. The pain keeps building.
I really want this deal to suceed, and I believe that it will help to liberalize Iranian thinking. It will not be all that pleasant as the voices of hate are very strong and well-practiced.
Thanks for posting this thread. I don't have time to read the other posts, these are merely my thoughts to you, oberliner. I wish the people of the region wisdom to find a better path.
Their fears are NOT unfounded. No one can ignore a neighbor who calls for one's death. Americans know what can happen.
Israel is not the only target of the religious extremists or demagogues of Iran, the Ayatollahs have blood on their hands since they took over. Much of that blood is Iranian.
Some of it is on our hands.
The terms of the framework Obama and others set on Iran are the harshest ever set for any nation. Anything that goes wrong, the agreement says, Iran will 'be default' be judged and then sanctioned - many even military action will be taken:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110228400
Sorry for the swipe at Netanyahu if you supported him. I don't live there. But TOD and TPV have an analysis of the agreement and as Obama details it in the video at the link, it's harsh. He has also said precisely what I believe you are trying to convey here, that we don't trust Iran for precisely the reasons you give. I'm sure many who voted for Netanyaho voted for him out of a sense of self-defense and not hatred of Palestinians.
I hope that secularists in Israel will take some heart in that and not fall for those who would terrify them if there truly is a way out of the morass they have been for so long. This kind of rhetoric is a demonization of many peoples just before a strike is made.
Not all hearts in those nations agree with the extremists in either:
I've seen other videos of Israelis and Palestinians trying the one on one approach, main;y by those who have lost their family members to terror and bombings, etc. to get peace in the region. I guess they are in the ranks of the Israeli left.
Of course the MIC media that infects virtually every nation doesn't give their views air time. Instead, the propagandists monopolize media with fear and hatred. And I'm not even talking about the people who live in the war zones.
AFAIK, Israel has been in a constant state of war from agreements ending, made twenty years before as the Ottoman Empire collapsed, but Jews had been returning since 1881, but really, they sought to return since they were run out by the Romans:
Zionism and the British mandate
The first wave of modern Jewish migration to Ottoman-ruled Palestine, known as the First Aliyah, began in 1881, as Jews fled pogroms in Eastern Europe.[100] Although the Zionist movement already existed in practice, Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl is credited with founding political Zionism,[101] a movement which sought to establish a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, by elevating the Jewish Question to the international plane.[102] In 1896, Herzl published Der Judenstaat (The State of the Jews), offering his vision of a future Jewish state; the following year he presided over the first World Zionist Congress.[103]
The Second Aliyah (1904–14), began after the Kishinev pogrom; some 40,000 Jews settled in Palestine, although nearly half of them left eventually.[100] Both the first and second waves of migrants were mainly Orthodox Jews,[104] although the Second Aliyah included socialist groups who established the kibbutz movement.[105] During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour sent the Balfour Declaration of 1917 to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, that stated that Britain intended for the creation of a Jewish homeland within the Palestinian Mandate.[106][107]
The Jewish Legion, a group primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted, in 1918, in the British conquest of Palestine.[108] Arab opposition to British rule and Jewish immigration led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of a Jewish militia known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi, or Stern Gang, paramilitary groups later split off.[109] In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration.[110] The population of the area at this time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11%,[111] Christians 9.5%.[112]
The Third (1919–23) and Fourth Aliyahs (1924–29) brought an additional 100,000 Jews to Palestine.[100]
Finally, the rise of Nazism and the increasing persecution of Jews in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This was a major cause of the Arab revolt of 1936–39 in which the British killed 5,032 Arabs and wounded 14,760,[113] and resulting in over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled.[114] The British introduced restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine.[100] By the end of World War II, the Jewish population of Palestine had increased to 33% of the total population.
Israeli Independence:
In 1947, the British government announced it would withdraw from Mandatory Palestine, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews.
On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the newly formed United Nations resolved that a committee, United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP), be created "to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine".[118] In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the UN General Assembly,[119] the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with "an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem ... the last to be under an International Trusteeship System".[120] On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 (II).[121] The Plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the Report of 3 September 1947.
The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan. The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine rejected it, and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.
On the following day, the 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets.[124] The Jews were initially on the defensive as civil war broke out, but gradually moved onto the offensive.[125] The Palestinian Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled.[126]
On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel".[127][128] The only reference in the text of the Declaration to the borders of the new state is the use of the term, Eretz-Israel...[129]
The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War;[131][132] Contingents from Yemen, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and Sudan joined the war.[133][134] The apparent purpose of the invasion was to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state at inception, and some Arab leaders talked about driving the Jews into the sea.[135][136][137] According to Benny Morris, Jews felt that the invading Arab armies aimed to slaughter the Jews.[138] The Arab league stated that the invasion was to restore law and order and to prevent further bloodshed.[139]
After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established.[140] Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. The United Nations estimated that more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled by or fled from advancing Israeli forces during the conflict—what would became known in Arabic as the Nakba ("catastrophe"
...[141]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
Of course, none of this is news to you, I'm just posting it for reference. Researching this from a secular view, I came to the conclusion that the creation of Israel as it now exists was not just imperialism on the side of the British, but what happened as great empires rise and fall. I'm not sure of the adjective great in application to any empire, but it's rather foolish to deny the centuries of caliphates which were empires in the area.
I suspect Israelis live and breathe the reality of empires that once existed there, and those trying to restore themselves such as the Daesh are doing now. Jews are a minority in that part of the world. When I say they have been a constant state of war, it is not as slander on either side. But a statement of fact. They have never really been accepted, just a look at the Wikipedia entries, which are most likely the weakest as they can be edited, show everything is disputed.
There is fear on all sides and unjust ideologies and religious extremism at work in the region. And Iran's wild statements - which I will emphasize again are from religious RWNJs that drone on constantly and hopefully not held by thinking people in general - give a distorted view. IMO.
Israel has adopted, rightly or wrongly, a fortress mentality because of this. And Netanyahu was reelected from the fears of Israelis combined with horrific experiences, both there and elsewhere. The pain keeps building.
I really want this deal to suceed, and I believe that it will help to liberalize Iranian thinking. It will not be all that pleasant as the voices of hate are very strong and well-practiced.
Thanks for posting this thread. I don't have time to read the other posts, these are merely my thoughts to you, oberliner. I wish the people of the region wisdom to find a better path.
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