General Discussion

ThoughtCriminal

(14,743 posts)

97. Actually...

Sun Apr 5, 2015, 08:47 PM

Apr 2015

A number of Native American Tribes objected to crashing the Lunar Prospector probe on the Lunar surface because it contained the some of the ashes of a highly respected Planetary Geologist (Gen Shoemaker). They argued that the Moon as a sacred object was desecrated by the presence of cremated remains.

The truth is that something like 108 billion people have lived on this planet and most of them probably did not end up in a neat cemetery or urn. Most likely, there are darn few places outside of Antarctica that do not have buried remains of somebody's ancestor beneath.

I remember in the 80's and 90's the same objections were raised against the Mount Graham Observatory in Arizona. The protesters at that time argued among other things that the telescopes should be built on Mauna Kea instead!

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Stop The Construction the TMT Telescope on Mauna Kea and the Arrest of Mauna Kea Protectors [View all] ellisonz Apr 2015 OP

I personally am glad to see this advance in astronomy. dolphinsandtuna Apr 2015 #1

But at what cost? ellisonz Apr 2015 #2

Please explain your objections. More clearly... Adrahil Apr 2015 #126

Most in this thread who say that are not listening to the answers. The US has nearly wiped out... Hekate Apr 2015 #198

I support the building of the TMT. longship Apr 2015 #3

There are 13 already. ellisonz Apr 2015 #5

Well, I respectfully disagree. longship Apr 2015 #11

"Hawaiians should be proud to host it." ellisonz Apr 2015 #18

Again, there have been world class scopes on Mauna Kea since the 60's. longship Apr 2015 #24

"It is a little late to start claiming foul." ellisonz Apr 2015 #28

Sorry. I unequivocally support the TMT. longship Apr 2015 #30

I support TMT Katashi_itto Apr 2015 #52

Ellisonz, the dynamic you are arguing against is the mainstay of American practice. freshwest Apr 2015 #109

The Mauna Kea observatory is above 4000 meters. longship Apr 2015 #112

I may have missed it, but you might do better to tell Ellisonz their belief system is medieval. freshwest Apr 2015 #114

Certainly there will be no pollution. longship Apr 2015 #116

That's not true. The amount of chemicals used on the telescopes is significant. ellisonz Apr 2015 #167

As A Amateur Astronomer, The TMT Is A Huge Step Forward cantbeserious Apr 2015 #4

But at what cost? ellisonz Apr 2015 #6

Better To Spend The Money On Science Than War And Welfare For The 1% cantbeserious Apr 2015 #7

But money on science at what cost? ellisonz Apr 2015 #8

You keep saying that. "At what cost?" Callmecrazy Apr 2015 #9

This one is as big as all the others combined. ellisonz Apr 2015 #14

There are numerous archeological sites on everywhere on this planet. jeff47 Apr 2015 #157

There are hundreds if not thousands of protected sites. ellisonz Apr 2015 #185

Once again, why must this sacred ground be protected, when other sacred ground is free to develop? jeff47 Apr 2015 #187

Here is the answer to your question: ellisonz Apr 2015 #189

So this is where Hawaiians speak to their gods. KamaAina Apr 2015 #194

What Controversy - What Ethics - Telescopes Are Already On The Mountain Top cantbeserious Apr 2015 #10

There is the point of contention... Chan790 Apr 2015 #34

"We need this telescope" ellisonz Apr 2015 #67

To make discoveries that will forever change us all. longship Apr 2015 #78

You're very presumptive. ellisonz Apr 2015 #80

Know everything??????? longship Apr 2015 #81

"You appear to be woefully ignorant of science." ellisonz Apr 2015 #83

I notice that you continue to frame in cultural impact. longship Apr 2015 #88

This is not a fringe protest. ellisonz Apr 2015 #95

Hmm! No ecological pleas there. Only cultural ones. longship Apr 2015 #98

You asked about the cultural component... ellisonz Apr 2015 #100

I have a healthy respect for intelligent discussion. longship Apr 2015 #105

Hey, don't poop on the lichens. I've spent an inordinate amount of my life studying lichens. :) LTX Apr 2015 #123

For the lichens: ellisonz Apr 2015 #173

From the baseline survey you appended: LTX Apr 2015 #200

Um...standing on the shoulders of giants? randome Apr 2015 #12

The Hawaiians decided. ellisonz Apr 2015 #15

A sacred place that's off-limits to everyone except the high priests who declared it sacred. LTX Apr 2015 #79

Or Ken Ham's Creation Museum. nt longship Apr 2015 #117

I admit that when I see an observatory on a peak... Adrahil Apr 2015 #135

Personally, I would rather see this telescope built as opposed to more vacation houses. nt Quackers Apr 2015 #13

Amen! Nictuku Apr 2015 #53

Believe it or not, I heard about this on the news here in Philly BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #16

BumRush, you are one of the few Mainland haoles that actually gets the problem.... Hekate Apr 2015 #190

Next year will be 30 years BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #201

Mahalo again. I encapsulated some of my own history in Post 198, if you are interested. nt Hekate Apr 2015 #203

I did see that BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #205

i support astronomy and science. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #17

What are we really supposed to learn from it? ellisonz Apr 2015 #19

Yes, and there's a reason it's already an established center for Astronomy, the climatalogical and Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #22

So we don't know what we'll learn? ellisonz Apr 2015 #25

I think science and knowledge pretty much always pay off. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #26

That's debatable. ellisonz Apr 2015 #29

We're kind of going around and around. "is bigger always better"? No, but when you are talking about Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #32

^^^This expresses my feelings on the project Stargazer09 Apr 2015 #40

Because of astronomy you carry a digital detector in your cell phone. longship Apr 2015 #33

There are MANY earth-crossing asteroids out there Stargazer09 Apr 2015 #41

It's going to save the planet from an asteroid? ellisonz Apr 2015 #68

Good lord greytdemocrat Apr 2015 #208

With telescopes "aperture is everything" Adrahil Apr 2015 #146

The summit is not all that big and a distinct environment. ellisonz Apr 2015 #168

"sacred ground" cleanhippie Apr 2015 #47

This is the largest telescope in the world (the current largest is ten metres). Spider Jerusalem Apr 2015 #102

It's a big ass mountain.... Seems like plenty of room up there. Adrahil Apr 2015 #127

What did the gentleman mean that the police would be held accountable for war crimes? nt Quackers Apr 2015 #20

He means that the United States illegally overthrew and annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii. ellisonz Apr 2015 #23

That's kind of a different battle, though, isn't it. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #27

Not from their perspective. ellisonz Apr 2015 #69

Does Hawaii have local government that is democratically elected? Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #91

Does the United States have a democratically elected government? ellisonz Apr 2015 #96

The population of Hawaii is around 1.5 Million, is it not? Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #103

Total population isn't so important. ellisonz Apr 2015 #171

I also highly doubt an important scientific observatory breaks on "red/blue" lines. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #172

Dumb argument against the telescope, IMO n/t SickOfTheOnePct Apr 2015 #36

Why? ellisonz Apr 2015 #70

"the desecration of Mauna Kea is a war crime." cleanhippie Apr 2015 #48

The relocation of Native Americans and despoliation of their lands was a war crime. ... Hekate Apr 2015 #196

Its a cool looking building Travis_0004 Apr 2015 #21

Sorry, I can't sign that as I support the project. obxhead Apr 2015 #31

I fully support the TMT telescope FLPanhandle Apr 2015 #35

I am trained as a physicist and I signed. salib Apr 2015 #37

Also, just saw a thread with the heading "It's easier to beg forgivness than ask permission" salib Apr 2015 #39

Many of the surrounding community are fine with it. nt Logical Apr 2015 #54

But were the asked. Did anyone get a consensus? salib Apr 2015 #82

Yes, that's why the previous observatories were built there. jeff47 Apr 2015 #158

Actually, that sounds like a "no" to me. salib Apr 2015 #163

It's difficult to consider the objections genuine jeff47 Apr 2015 #181

It's not out of the blue at all. The native Hawai'ian movement has been building for 40 years, afaik. Hekate Apr 2015 #211

Hawaiians have a consensus culture, so you've made a very astute observation. I'd say not. Hekate Apr 2015 #212

Thank you for speaking up. ellisonz Apr 2015 #72

I support the building of the TMT. marble falls Apr 2015 #38

What better use for "sacred ground" than exploring the hidden secrets of our vast cosmos? Fumesucker Apr 2015 #42

Are you suggesting making that arguement to the people invloved... stone space Apr 2015 #51

It's just my opinion, it may or may not be an effective argument with some people Fumesucker Apr 2015 #58

It may be an effective arguement, and it may not. stone space Apr 2015 #59

Why not? Adrahil Apr 2015 #128

Nothing wrong with it at all. It's a quite different approach, however, since... stone space Apr 2015 #143

Well, trying to convince them doesn't necessarily they get the final say.... Adrahil Apr 2015 #147

I love Hawaii, but I also love astronomy so I can't sign. Vinca Apr 2015 #43

The Universe is unique sacred ground jberryhill Apr 2015 #44

Thank you. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #92

Scientists have run out of mountains, this is the only one left. bananas Apr 2015 #45

People distrust scientists because of their own ignorance. nt Logical Apr 2015 #55

Most people do support this though FLPanhandle Apr 2015 #56

Are you serious? Or is that satire? tkmorris Apr 2015 #60

... NuclearDem Apr 2015 #141

ROFLMAO snooper2 Apr 2015 #154

Nope, I rule in favor of science! nt Logical Apr 2015 #46

I support building the telescope... Sorry Snow Leopard Apr 2015 #49

Science before Superstition. cleanhippie Apr 2015 #50

+1 FLPanhandle Apr 2015 #57

No. Support the construction...nt SidDithers Apr 2015 #61

Guess this thread didn't go quite as you planned.... philosslayer Apr 2015 #62

+1 to that! ThoughtCriminal Apr 2015 #63

I'm not surprised. ellisonz Apr 2015 #71

It almost sums it up obxhead Apr 2015 #85

If other people in other places want it, let them have it. ellisonz Apr 2015 #87

Are you new to the protest obxhead Apr 2015 #89

I can almost guarantee if Obama came out and said we should preserve this land for cultural liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #90

No, it wouldn't. I've heard several folks make claims like that. It wouldn't change anyone's opinion stevenleser Apr 2015 #188

If a telescope is seeing farther than we have ever seen before, how is anyone going to know Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #107

We didn't know what we would learn with Hubble either. Adrahil Apr 2015 #129

Sad to see so many on here quick to chose science over people. liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #64

Thank you for speaking up. ellisonz Apr 2015 #73

It's a big mountain. Plenty of room for both. Adrahil Apr 2015 #130

This observatory will not make culture disappear jberryhill Apr 2015 #204

While science is great and all... Revanchist Apr 2015 #65

+1 liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #66

The summit of Mauna Kea has hosted an observatory since the 1960's. longship Apr 2015 #118

It isn't "their land" jeff47 Apr 2015 #156

Let both sides argue their case. Then let the people of Hawaii decide by vote. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2015 #74

That is correct. ellisonz Apr 2015 #76

Seems like a good project to me. n/t Throd Apr 2015 #75

Absolutely not. I always support science over superstition. MicaelS Apr 2015 #77

no I'm sure it doesn't. Many on here care more about science than people. liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #86

How many people really oppose this? Travis_0004 Apr 2015 #179

I've never understood the concept of "sacred ground", or "holidays" (Holy days). eppur_se_muova Apr 2015 #84

I, too, support the telescope. Sorry. temporary311 Apr 2015 #93

This is completely different from the Moon Bombing. ellisonz Apr 2015 #94

Actually... ThoughtCriminal Apr 2015 #97

What is the "significant impact?" Adrahil Apr 2015 #148

No, sorry. beam me up scottie Apr 2015 #99

I support the building of the telescope. Agnosticsherbet Apr 2015 #101

Thanks for sharing this. It's such a familiar scene. Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #104

This petition is utter rubbish. longship Apr 2015 #110

Is there such as thing as a religious commitment to building gigantic telescopes? Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #113

The mountain is already festooned with telescopes. longship Apr 2015 #119

The new telescope is bigger than all the others combined... Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #122

No, it's not a big difference jeff47 Apr 2015 #159

Preservation of natural spaces doesn't necessitate large amounts of flora and fauna living there. KittyWampus Apr 2015 #134

Thank you. ellisonz Apr 2015 #170

You're welcome. ellisonz Apr 2015 #184

There is a huge movement in the US that considers Stem Cells to be sacred SomethingFishy Apr 2015 #106

If it were Christians opposing a telescope being built on "sacred ground", Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #108

It's not about whether something is actually sacred or not. I am not Hawaiian. I don't consider liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #111

Or maybe they could embrace the fact that they had the greatest observatory on the planet. longship Apr 2015 #115

The culture isn't going to disappear because another telescope is built on Mauna Kea. Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #121

I'm not getting how putting a telescope there is "destroying a minority culture" (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #124

The TMT will occupy a SMALL portion of the mountain. Adrahil Apr 2015 #133

Mahalo for bringing this here. I'll check your links later on -- didn't know there was a controversy Hekate Apr 2015 #120

Aloha Hekate! ellisonz Apr 2015 #162

I'll take advanced scientific research abilities over superstitious hoodoo. linuxman Apr 2015 #125

Were native Hawaiians ever compensated for taking this location where other telescopes were KittyWampus Apr 2015 #131

Telescopes serve different purposes... plus only one team can use the telescope at a time. Adrahil Apr 2015 #150

Native Hawai'ians were never compensated for diddly squat. Hawai'i was annexed without treaties... Hekate Apr 2015 #177

I don't know where I stand on this, but I do think it's odd how dismissive people here are of the DanTex Apr 2015 #132

Imagine if it was taking an indigenous people's land for oil or diamonds. KittyWampus Apr 2015 #136

Not getting how putting a telescope on a mountain is like "tearing the Mona Lisa apart". (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #137

Gigantic telescope in a landscape. Despoiling the environment. KittyWampus Apr 2015 #138

Are there any mountains, anywhere, where you would be happy to erect a telescope? (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2015 #140

I'd suggest replacing all the smaller telescopes with one big one. And I'm not unsympathetic KittyWampus Apr 2015 #142

That would be a huge setback, honestly Godhumor Apr 2015 #145

On the other hand, are there any mountains where you would object to a telescope being built? DanTex Apr 2015 #144

It's big, for sure, but Mauna Kea is truly a gargantuan mountain. Adrahil Apr 2015 #151

In a way it's worse. The Mona Lisa is just some paint on a canvas. DanTex Apr 2015 #139

My understanding is that Native Hawaiians are not all of the same mind. Adrahil Apr 2015 #149

Why wouldn't those people be at the forefront? ellisonz Apr 2015 #164

I've read the site plan.... Adrahil Apr 2015 #165

Of course the claim is minimal impact... ellisonz Apr 2015 #166

I think DU is being pretty tolerant of a lot of "science is overrated" mumbo jumbo ProudToBeBlueInRhody Apr 2015 #169

How on earth is the TMT a monstrosity? NuclearDem Apr 2015 #152

No thanks. I prefer that they build the telescope FBaggins Apr 2015 #153

Use mountain tops for.... NCTraveler Apr 2015 #155

West Virginia? So the Hawai'ian people should wait till their land is strip mined before speaking? Hekate Apr 2015 #174

Please look at what has happened in WV. NCTraveler Apr 2015 #180

Please see my Post 176. It was you who brought up WV, 6000 miles away. Hekate Apr 2015 #182

That's gotta be the most non-violent, respectful, peaceful arresting of protestors DanTex Apr 2015 #160

Yes it most certainly is. I wish that the posters here would think hard about why. nt Hekate Apr 2015 #178

Just passed 10,000 signatures. ellisonz Apr 2015 #161

That many luddites? amazing...... Rosco T. Apr 2015 #175

As much as I am pro-science, I am even more troubled by the arrogance and dismissiveness ... Hekate Apr 2015 #176

If this was a bunch of Christians or Muslims protesting some science project... MicaelS Apr 2015 #199

Christians and Muslims comprise a large percentage of the world's population. Hawaiians... Hekate Apr 2015 #202

Almost 15,000 signatures now. ellisonz Apr 2015 #183

If the Hawaiian gods don't like it, can't they do something about it, being gods and all? stevenleser Apr 2015 #186

Speaking of sacrilege... ellisonz Apr 2015 #192

Malala was shot, but same t'ing as acid. They tried to silence her. By the way, Ellison... Hekate Apr 2015 #195

Believe it or not, there is a Hawaiian snow goddess, Poliahu KamaAina Apr 2015 #193

I am for it olddots Apr 2015 #191

Just as I thought GWB was dead wrong with his banning of stem cell research on religious grounds Egnever Apr 2015 #197

I also support the building of this telescope. Owl Apr 2015 #206

Breaking: Construction temporarily halted BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #207

That's actually a good thing. They need to be able to talk this over and reach mutual.... Hekate Apr 2015 #209

YES! ellisonz Apr 2015 #210