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In reply to the discussion: Stop The Construction the TMT Telescope on Mauna Kea and the Arrest of Mauna Kea Protectors [View all]LTX
(1,020 posts)200. From the baseline survey you appended:
"Adverse influence of the human activities associated with astronomy is not apparent. This assertion rests largely on a) the finding that construction and related activities have not fostered the establishment of introduced plants in the study area and, more importantly, b) our finding that the frequency of native plants near the road, observatories and other constructed facilities is about the same as at more distant locations within and outside the Astronomy Precinct when comparing similar substrates."
I'll note that the study's recommendations are directed to control of invasive species promulgated through human traffic, which, as the study notes, takes the form of recreation (skiing, hiking, etc.), as well as local population traffic (presumably sacred site visitors) and traffic associated with the observatories.
I'll also note that the difficulty in establishing a baseline assessment of lichen populations in the summit region is, rather ironically, the inverse of the difficulty in establishing baseline assessments of lichen populations in areas of extraordinary fecundity, such as the Smoky Mountains, where more than 800 species of lichen have been identified. As stated in the study:
"This report includes a discussion of the difficulty of identification of lichens in the Mauna Kea environment and a preliminary analysis of lichen community structure and the environmental factors that may shape the communities.These findings are briefly presented in this section. The work of identifying the unidentified species is continuing. Identification is made difficult or impossible because many specimen lack reproductive structures and spores. It appears that the usually dry environment of the alpine environment on Mauna Kea supports reproduction in many lichen species only during atypical periods of higher than normal moisture . . . . [App. D-3 has the detailed lichen assessment]"
The observatory construction has nevertheless undoubtedly had its share of environmental impact, and the study notes that observatory foundations are not observed to be colonization points for lichen or moss populations:
"No new lichens or mosses have become established in the [Observatory] area as a consequence of the construction or have used the structures as their habitat. The number of calciphiles in Hawaii is small because even though the basalts are basic the pH is close to neutrality. Therefore, though there are some small areas of elevated coral or lithified dunes in the Islands there is very little habitat for calciphiles."
Nevertheless, the lichen populations in the summit region do not give an indication of overall distress (not surprising given their substrate and facet habitats), and as the study notes:
"The checklist of the lichens in this survey notes 23 species, twelve more than observed during the 2008 study (Smith 2008) (Appendix 1) and two more than the study in 1982 (Smith et al., 1982). The difference between the two recent studies is due to expanding the studying area down to 13,000 ft, a recommendation of the 2008 study, as well as including three sites on the western boundary of the area around Puu Poliahu. The three western sites were somewhat richer in species (at least three species were unique to this region of the study area) or had better developed thalli which better linked the depauperate specimens in the TMT area with species found at Hale Pohaku, e.g., Physcia dubia."
Your interviewee (in the video) seems like a sincere researcher with a reasonably broad knowledge of the area's botanicals, but even you have to admit that he brings to his ostensible conclusions a decidedly political agenda. I'll also note that his conclusions are drawn from a (not entirely unreasonable) lack of sufficient evidentiary base, but are nevertheless conclusions that are not drawn from or tied to the baseline study itself.
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Stop The Construction the TMT Telescope on Mauna Kea and the Arrest of Mauna Kea Protectors [View all]
ellisonz
Apr 2015
OP
Most in this thread who say that are not listening to the answers. The US has nearly wiped out...
Hekate
Apr 2015
#198
Ellisonz, the dynamic you are arguing against is the mainstay of American practice.
freshwest
Apr 2015
#109
I may have missed it, but you might do better to tell Ellisonz their belief system is medieval.
freshwest
Apr 2015
#114
That's not true. The amount of chemicals used on the telescopes is significant.
ellisonz
Apr 2015
#167
Once again, why must this sacred ground be protected, when other sacred ground is free to develop?
jeff47
Apr 2015
#187
What Controversy - What Ethics - Telescopes Are Already On The Mountain Top
cantbeserious
Apr 2015
#10
Hey, don't poop on the lichens. I've spent an inordinate amount of my life studying lichens. :)
LTX
Apr 2015
#123
A sacred place that's off-limits to everyone except the high priests who declared it sacred.
LTX
Apr 2015
#79
Personally, I would rather see this telescope built as opposed to more vacation houses. nt
Quackers
Apr 2015
#13
BumRush, you are one of the few Mainland haoles that actually gets the problem....
Hekate
Apr 2015
#190
Mahalo again. I encapsulated some of my own history in Post 198, if you are interested. nt
Hekate
Apr 2015
#203
Yes, and there's a reason it's already an established center for Astronomy, the climatalogical and
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2015
#22
We're kind of going around and around. "is bigger always better"? No, but when you are talking about
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2015
#32
This is the largest telescope in the world (the current largest is ten metres).
Spider Jerusalem
Apr 2015
#102
What did the gentleman mean that the police would be held accountable for war crimes? nt
Quackers
Apr 2015
#20
He means that the United States illegally overthrew and annexed the Kingdom of Hawaii.
ellisonz
Apr 2015
#23
I also highly doubt an important scientific observatory breaks on "red/blue" lines.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2015
#172
The relocation of Native Americans and despoliation of their lands was a war crime. ...
Hekate
Apr 2015
#196
Also, just saw a thread with the heading "It's easier to beg forgivness than ask permission"
salib
Apr 2015
#39
It's not out of the blue at all. The native Hawai'ian movement has been building for 40 years, afaik.
Hekate
Apr 2015
#211
Hawaiians have a consensus culture, so you've made a very astute observation. I'd say not.
Hekate
Apr 2015
#212
What better use for "sacred ground" than exploring the hidden secrets of our vast cosmos?
Fumesucker
Apr 2015
#42
It's just my opinion, it may or may not be an effective argument with some people
Fumesucker
Apr 2015
#58
Nothing wrong with it at all. It's a quite different approach, however, since...
stone space
Apr 2015
#143
I can almost guarantee if Obama came out and said we should preserve this land for cultural
liberal_at_heart
Apr 2015
#90
No, it wouldn't. I've heard several folks make claims like that. It wouldn't change anyone's opinion
stevenleser
Apr 2015
#188
If a telescope is seeing farther than we have ever seen before, how is anyone going to know
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2015
#107
Let both sides argue their case. Then let the people of Hawaii decide by vote.
Tierra_y_Libertad
Apr 2015
#74
no I'm sure it doesn't. Many on here care more about science than people.
liberal_at_heart
Apr 2015
#86
I've never understood the concept of "sacred ground", or "holidays" (Holy days).
eppur_se_muova
Apr 2015
#84
Is there such as thing as a religious commitment to building gigantic telescopes?
Cheese Sandwich
Apr 2015
#113
Preservation of natural spaces doesn't necessitate large amounts of flora and fauna living there.
KittyWampus
Apr 2015
#134
There is a huge movement in the US that considers Stem Cells to be sacred
SomethingFishy
Apr 2015
#106
It's not about whether something is actually sacred or not. I am not Hawaiian. I don't consider
liberal_at_heart
Apr 2015
#111
Or maybe they could embrace the fact that they had the greatest observatory on the planet.
longship
Apr 2015
#115
The culture isn't going to disappear because another telescope is built on Mauna Kea.
Warren DeMontague
Apr 2015
#121
I'm not getting how putting a telescope there is "destroying a minority culture" (nt)
Nye Bevan
Apr 2015
#124
Mahalo for bringing this here. I'll check your links later on -- didn't know there was a controversy
Hekate
Apr 2015
#120
Were native Hawaiians ever compensated for taking this location where other telescopes were
KittyWampus
Apr 2015
#131
Telescopes serve different purposes... plus only one team can use the telescope at a time.
Adrahil
Apr 2015
#150
Native Hawai'ians were never compensated for diddly squat. Hawai'i was annexed without treaties...
Hekate
Apr 2015
#177
I don't know where I stand on this, but I do think it's odd how dismissive people here are of the
DanTex
Apr 2015
#132
Not getting how putting a telescope on a mountain is like "tearing the Mona Lisa apart". (nt)
Nye Bevan
Apr 2015
#137
Are there any mountains, anywhere, where you would be happy to erect a telescope? (nt)
Nye Bevan
Apr 2015
#140
I'd suggest replacing all the smaller telescopes with one big one. And I'm not unsympathetic
KittyWampus
Apr 2015
#142
On the other hand, are there any mountains where you would object to a telescope being built?
DanTex
Apr 2015
#144
I think DU is being pretty tolerant of a lot of "science is overrated" mumbo jumbo
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
Apr 2015
#169
West Virginia? So the Hawai'ian people should wait till their land is strip mined before speaking?
Hekate
Apr 2015
#174
That's gotta be the most non-violent, respectful, peaceful arresting of protestors
DanTex
Apr 2015
#160
Yes it most certainly is. I wish that the posters here would think hard about why. nt
Hekate
Apr 2015
#178
As much as I am pro-science, I am even more troubled by the arrogance and dismissiveness ...
Hekate
Apr 2015
#176
If this was a bunch of Christians or Muslims protesting some science project...
MicaelS
Apr 2015
#199
Christians and Muslims comprise a large percentage of the world's population. Hawaiians...
Hekate
Apr 2015
#202
If the Hawaiian gods don't like it, can't they do something about it, being gods and all?
stevenleser
Apr 2015
#186
Malala was shot, but same t'ing as acid. They tried to silence her. By the way, Ellison...
Hekate
Apr 2015
#195
Just as I thought GWB was dead wrong with his banning of stem cell research on religious grounds
Egnever
Apr 2015
#197