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jobycom

(49,038 posts)
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 08:42 PM Apr 2015

Just to beat my head against a wall one more time, yes, bigotry against Islam is racism. [View all]

Or bigotry against Jews, or any other group where a religion and culture and ethnic identity are closely intertwined.

Oxford English dictionary:

Race: 1.1A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group:

From Wikipedia:

Under "Racism:"

"According to the United Nations convention, there is no distinction between the terms racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination... [10]"

"Cultural racism exists when there is a widespread acceptance of stereotypes concerning different ethnic or population groups.[56] Where racism can be characterised by the belief that one race is inherently superior to another, cultural racism can be characterised by the belief that one culture is inherently superior to another.[57]"

Under "Islamophobia:"

"Several scholars consider Islamophobia as a form of racism.[35] A 2007 article in Journal of Sociology defines Islamophobia as anti-Muslim racism and a continuation of anti-Asian and anti-Arab racism.[36] Similarly, John Denham has drawn parallels between modern Islamophobia and the antisemitism of the 1930s,[37] so have Maud Olofsson,[38] and Jan Hjärpe, among others."

"The European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) defines Islamophobia as the fear of or prejudiced viewpoint towards Islam, Muslims and matters pertaining to them (ECRI 2006). Whether it takes the shape of daily forms of racism and discrimination or more violent forms, Islamophobia is a violation of human rights and a threat to social cohesion".[4] It has also been defined as "fear of Muslims and Islam; rejection of the Muslim religion; or a form of differentialist racism" (Helbling 2011)."

--------------------------

Etcetera. Basically, "race" has always been about drawing distinctions. It has been based on language, nationality, skin color, ethnic heritage, and other such large vertical groupings. And while Islam is ALSO a religion, it is not just a religion, any more than Judaism is only a religion. It is also a cultural and ethnic identity.

So, saying "I don't agree with Islam because I don't believe in a god who created the world" is not racist, nor Islamophobic. But saying "Muslims follow a violent, sexist (insert insult) religion" is racist, because it attacks all Muslims by implying they are united in a single negative mindset, and makes unsupportable generalizations about them based on their common grouping. It may not fit the 20th century pseudo-scientific definition we have heard most often in this country, where the predominant type of racism was based on skin color, but it still fits the term. And it's horrific.

I'm an atheist. I disbelieve all religions equally (which actually doesn't mean completely, but that's a different discussion). But I'm a liberal. I love and relish all people in all of their various personalities, intelligences, beauties, and beliefs. And when I learn that 2 billion people see the world differently than I do, I don't think "How can they be so wrong?" I think, "What am I missing about what they are saying?" It makes the world a lot more fun and a lot less hateful for me.

Just my thoughts. Flame (or not) away.

151 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Excellent! AuntPatsy Apr 2015 #1
I disagree with you but I won't flame you. ZombieHorde Apr 2015 #2
You can choose to believe something other than you do? jobycom Apr 2015 #9
absolutely. I was raised in "the church". A very conservative evangelical one. I used to "believe" PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #12
Could you change back? I mean, let's say Ted Cruz gets elected and makes us register jobycom Apr 2015 #27
Could I or you? Sure, were human. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #28
No, I couldn't. jobycom Apr 2015 #68
OK, got it. Green Bay Packers fans are a race, ergo Bears fans are bigots. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #82
Show me what I said that would lead to that conclusion. jobycom Apr 2015 #88
Sums it up well, heh. Desert805 Apr 2015 #129
Free will regarding religious belief is discussed in the Religion group from time to time. ZombieHorde Apr 2015 #13
That's my take as well... Rhythm Apr 2015 #79
Of course you could. Drahthaardogs Apr 2015 #20
I once knew a dedicated pro-Nazi guy in college. He was an asshole. Binkie The Clown Apr 2015 #37
This message was self-deleted by its author CJCRANE Apr 2015 #39
"couldn't change their belief without great psychological damage" snooper2 Apr 2015 #89
So in your mind all Muslims were veils and eat pork chops, but would rather not? jobycom Apr 2015 #96
freedom from all religion is a beautiful thing snooper2 Apr 2015 #103
You must drive a Dodge. nt jobycom Apr 2015 #106
2003 Dakota! Dodge it or Ram it Baby snooper2 Apr 2015 #111
nice try, those are just opinions from UN/EU paper pushers, and no more valuable than any other msongs Apr 2015 #3
"Paper pusher" is how you describe learned experts? jobycom Apr 2015 #6
The most populous Islamic country in the world is Indonesia. Are you saying that Islamaphobes are scarletwoman Apr 2015 #4
Agree 100% SickOfTheOnePct Apr 2015 #17
Came in here to post this. linuxman Apr 2015 #26
We agree, as usual. Blue_In_AK Apr 2015 #33
Yup! scarletwoman Apr 2015 #34
Thank you for this post - doing your part to make DU a bit less dumb. Pooka Fey Apr 2015 #63
I wish! Thank you, though. scarletwoman Apr 2015 #66
... Pooka Fey Apr 2015 #67
I am not, and didn't imply that in my post. I didn't even say anything that sounded like that. jobycom Apr 2015 #84
Maybe you should read it again. Desert805 Apr 2015 #130
I disagree. According to the federal government, Arab people are caucasian when filling out race. catbyte Apr 2015 #5
No, dumbcat Apr 2015 #7
Muslims are neither a race, nor an ethnic group. Spider Jerusalem Apr 2015 #8
Thank you. Exactly the point I was attempting to make in my post #4. scarletwoman Apr 2015 #18
Tell me what you think a race is, then. jobycom Apr 2015 #85
Race is a construct. Adrahil Apr 2015 #92
Sounds so simple when you say it. :) Desert805 Apr 2015 #131
I think the reason we're seeing such LuvNewcastle Apr 2015 #10
Very well...there are Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid Muslims... brooklynite Apr 2015 #16
It really depends on the criticism. LuvNewcastle Apr 2015 #21
Well said. I'm more worried about racism than race. jobycom Apr 2015 #107
Victim? What about victims of religious ideology? Women losing rights, LGBT fighting for them? PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #110
Agreed. And also agreed you're wasting your time. Desert805 Apr 2015 #132
From Freedom From Religion on a previous Maher Islam discussion PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #11
excellent post! m-lekktor Apr 2015 #23
See, that post demonstrates exactly why it is racism in all it's sickened ugliness. jobycom Apr 2015 #94
To compare RELIGION to sexual orientation is fucking disgusting. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #95
Yes, it would be. Which is why I wouldn't do so. jobycom Apr 2015 #98
Yes, you did. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #100
Oh God almighty. Show me where, and explain how. nt jobycom Apr 2015 #104
You don't know where phil89 Apr 2015 #114
I know I did not. And if you did, you'd have shown me. jobycom Apr 2015 #123
What is the ethnic link between Saudis and Indonesians? brooklynite Apr 2015 #14
Or how about between Iranians and Somalis? scarletwoman Apr 2015 #30
I think the bigger point of contention is defining "bigotry" in this discussion. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #32
My concern is really just to do with defending the meaning of words. scarletwoman Apr 2015 #35
Exactly! There are two kinds of people in the world. Binkie The Clown Apr 2015 #36
Or African Americans (a large subset that are Moslem) and Kazakhs? TransitJohn Apr 2015 #64
Why is it all the people who mount absurd defenses of religion always claim to be atheists? Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #15
Is that a passive-aggressive ad hominem accusation? jobycom Apr 2015 #108
Religion, as with fairy tales, should never be taken seriously seveneyes Apr 2015 #19
I initially rec'd this, but took it back PowerToThePeople Apr 2015 #22
+1 leftofcool Apr 2015 #25
Islam is an ethnic group? I don't think so. leftofcool Apr 2015 #24
Islamaphobia is bigotry pure and simple. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #29
This would be fine if all Muslims were Arab or Asian, Blue_In_AK Apr 2015 #31
Great post! nt bananas Apr 2015 #38
Thanks! jobycom Apr 2015 #102
It's very easy to make a category error when talking about any race, group or culture CJCRANE Apr 2015 #40
If you convert to Islam, do you also change your race? Quantess Apr 2015 #41
No thanks. I know what racism is versus bigotry. (nt) Inkfreak Apr 2015 #42
and what about bigotry against Christians or Buddhists or Hindus? cali Apr 2015 #43
+1 B Calm Apr 2015 #44
more to the point, criticism of islam is not the same as "islamophobia" and is not in itself racist Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #45
Probably, yes and no, I think. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #50
Using Islamophobia to describe any criticism of Islam is as dishonest Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #53
Yup. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #55
Perfectly said! I'm not a bigot for saying it's wrong to execute gay people. arcane1 Apr 2015 #58
Yes, that does imply that all catholics are also wrong. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #71
No it doesn't. Huge numbers of catholics simply disagree with their church's official positions. nt. Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #77
Even if it did, so what? Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #133
Yes, that does imply that all catholics are also wrong. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #72
Which is why I said that in the OP. jobycom Apr 2015 #83
So is pointing that sharia law is an abomination "Islamic hatred"? Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #119
And just so we are on the same page William769 Apr 2015 #46
Bigotry against anything is bigotry. Iggo Apr 2015 #47
I hate fucking nazis/ Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #48
how many nazis have you had sex with? uppityperson Apr 2015 #61
Illinois Nazis especially. Iggo Apr 2015 #81
intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself seveneyes Apr 2015 #49
No, attacking someone's ideas, even bigotedly, is not racism. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #51
Where would Muhammad Ali fit into this? arcane1 Apr 2015 #52
So let me get this straight, bigotry against Arab Christians is Islamophobia? Pooka Fey Apr 2015 #54
What? jobycom Apr 2015 #101
All religion is equally ridiculous RealityAdvocate Apr 2015 #56
How DARE you disrespect the FSM! Adrahil Apr 2015 #143
Islam is the dominant religion across all racial divides Warpy Apr 2015 #57
Religious animus is a form of bigotry, not racism. Both are bad, but not the same. leveymg Apr 2015 #59
If we are talking just a regional group of Muslims, maybe. Drunken Irishman Apr 2015 #60
The progressive defense of Islam is getting absurd Matrosov Apr 2015 #62
I've said damn near the same in the past here as well. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #65
Thank you. (no text) Quantess Apr 2015 #69
it's fucking INSANE. nt m-lekktor Apr 2015 #74
It's not liberal or progressive, it's just the stupid PC police. B Calm Apr 2015 #75
Thank you. romanic Apr 2015 #76
Tell me who is doing what you said in your post. jobycom Apr 2015 #87
Nobody here is saying that. Throd Apr 2015 #90
Nobody here says any of those things. People say Islam, the ideology, is violent and sexist PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #93
You just said what you said no one was saying in the same post. jobycom Apr 2015 #97
Idiotic? OK, let's play that fucking game, chief. This whole OP is fucking idiotic. PeaceNikki Apr 2015 #99
Thank you. nt cwydro Apr 2015 #147
Agree!!! And thank you! n/t Coventina Apr 2015 #91
Agree totally, Matrosov. Arugula Latte Apr 2015 #115
Just want to join in the pile. graegoyle Apr 2015 #70
Imagine ... MrMickeysMom Apr 2015 #73
If you redefine "racism" as being about something else besides race... DetlefK Apr 2015 #78
I didn't redefine race. Those who think it is about skin color are redefining it. jobycom Apr 2015 #86
You're simply wrong. Shoulders of Giants Apr 2015 #80
That's simply racism. jobycom Apr 2015 #109
There are a lot of passages in the Koran commanding that Muslims kill infidels. Arugula Latte Apr 2015 #117
None of those verses command Muslims to kill infidels. Care to learn how language is manipulated? jobycom Apr 2015 #121
The Koran is supposed to be the word of God. Shoulders of Giants Apr 2015 #125
See post Shoulders of Giants Apr 2015 #124
And a longer response... jobycom Apr 2015 #112
Yes religion has kept their society from advancing. Shoulders of Giants Apr 2015 #128
I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart. Anne Frank K&R Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2015 #105
Perhaps not, but close enough in my book. Orsino Apr 2015 #113
So, by this logic, bigotry against Republicans is anti-white racism Arugula Latte Apr 2015 #116
Nope. You have a choice about your religion. You don't about your race. truebrit71 Apr 2015 #118
You can dislike a religion or even hate a religion without disliking/hating it's followers Marrah_G Apr 2015 #120
Yes, of course you can. As I said in the OP. But hatred of Muslims based on stereotypes of religion jobycom Apr 2015 #122
really well said. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #127
That makes absolutely no sense, if I went even against an even more hierarchical religion... Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #134
I am not and do not accuse you personally of generalization here. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #138
Yes I do, particularly as hypocrites, many of them, such as Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.. Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #139
good for your consistency! guillaumeb Apr 2015 #140
First off, most people develop morality independent of their holy books, if they didn't, we would... Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #141
I would include the word ethics as well as morality. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #142
True, I developed my ethics based on simple things like human rights and fairness... Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #144
Interesting comments. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #148
Here's the poll... Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #149
thank you. I will read it. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #151
Since everybody else is throwing in their 2 cents, why not... Erich Bloodaxe BSN Apr 2015 #126
Neither race nor ethnicity LWolf Apr 2015 #135
Wouldn't "intersects with racism" be just as easy to say and more accurate? DirkGently Apr 2015 #136
The Quran is a book full of violence, excuses for violence, sexism, homophobia... Humanist_Activist Apr 2015 #137
And bigotry, even "religious" bigotry, against women is misogyny. n/t pnwmom Apr 2015 #145
Why the quotation marks? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #146
I do not love, relish nor respect people who use their religion as a club ProudToBeBlueInRhody Apr 2015 #150
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