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In reply to the discussion: Just to beat my head against a wall one more time, yes, bigotry against Islam is racism. [View all]PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)11. From Freedom From Religion on a previous Maher Islam discussion
The missing piece of this puzzle is a basic assumption about religion Ben et. al. are mistakenly making. Their analogy of religion to race fails. Religion is not like race. Religion is an ideaa faith-based idea lacking any evidenceor a set of ideas to which one willingly adheres. Race can't be changed; religion can. All you have to do is change your mind. Think for yourself and you can be free from religion.
.....
Ideas dictate behavior, skin color does not. And religion is a set of common ideas to which one willingly subscribes. The caveat to this, and perhaps the hang up for Affleck, was noted by Maher and has been noted by Harris many times in the past. Religion is often an accident of birth and, in the case of Islam, leaving that religion can be lethal. Maher correctly observed that some Muslims are afraid to leave their religion and are even "afraid to speak out because [Islam]'s the only religion that acts like the mafia, that will fucking kill you if you say the wrong thing, draw the wrong picture or write the wrong book." This spiritual blackmail is disgusting, but it belies the simplicity of treating religion only as a set of ideas. In other words, leaving Islam and saying that you are no longer a Muslimthat you no longer adhere to that set of ideasis not easy for that religion. However, this caveat is not enough to substantiate Affleck, Kristal, and Steele's claims of bigotry against Maher and Harris.
Affleck himself admitted that we must criticize bad ideas, "of course we do!" Harris and Maher see Islam, as Harris put it, as "the mother lode of bad ideas" and criticize those ideas. But Affleck sees Harris and Maher as attacking Muslims. Harris and Maher are attacking Islam, the set of ideas which Muslims self-identify as subscribing to. Without doubt, there are internecine conflicts within Islamarguments about which is the true Islam. But both sides recognized this. Harris laid out concentric circles of people who consider themselves Muslims with the ISISlike extremists at the middle. And Kristal and Steele noted people and friends they know who are in Harris's outer circles. But again, Kristal and Steele's anecdotal evidence does not invalidate Maher and Harris's criticism of ideas: such as the idea that apostasy should be a capital crime. An idea that more than 3/4 of Egyptian Muslims agree with (that statistic actually embodies the differences among Muslims and the anecdotes raised).
Of course Islamophobia exists. A self-appointed vigilante killing a Sikh after mistaking him for a Muslimhe wanted to go out and "shoot some towelheads"is an example of that fear running wild after 9/11. But criticizing the religion itself, pointing out its barbaric tenets, and explaining the penalties for apostasy are not examples of Islamophobia. What Maher and Harris were saying was not Islamophobic, they were simply speaking critical truths about a set of cruel, misogynistic ideas.
.....
Ideas dictate behavior, skin color does not. And religion is a set of common ideas to which one willingly subscribes. The caveat to this, and perhaps the hang up for Affleck, was noted by Maher and has been noted by Harris many times in the past. Religion is often an accident of birth and, in the case of Islam, leaving that religion can be lethal. Maher correctly observed that some Muslims are afraid to leave their religion and are even "afraid to speak out because [Islam]'s the only religion that acts like the mafia, that will fucking kill you if you say the wrong thing, draw the wrong picture or write the wrong book." This spiritual blackmail is disgusting, but it belies the simplicity of treating religion only as a set of ideas. In other words, leaving Islam and saying that you are no longer a Muslimthat you no longer adhere to that set of ideasis not easy for that religion. However, this caveat is not enough to substantiate Affleck, Kristal, and Steele's claims of bigotry against Maher and Harris.
Affleck himself admitted that we must criticize bad ideas, "of course we do!" Harris and Maher see Islam, as Harris put it, as "the mother lode of bad ideas" and criticize those ideas. But Affleck sees Harris and Maher as attacking Muslims. Harris and Maher are attacking Islam, the set of ideas which Muslims self-identify as subscribing to. Without doubt, there are internecine conflicts within Islamarguments about which is the true Islam. But both sides recognized this. Harris laid out concentric circles of people who consider themselves Muslims with the ISISlike extremists at the middle. And Kristal and Steele noted people and friends they know who are in Harris's outer circles. But again, Kristal and Steele's anecdotal evidence does not invalidate Maher and Harris's criticism of ideas: such as the idea that apostasy should be a capital crime. An idea that more than 3/4 of Egyptian Muslims agree with (that statistic actually embodies the differences among Muslims and the anecdotes raised).
Of course Islamophobia exists. A self-appointed vigilante killing a Sikh after mistaking him for a Muslimhe wanted to go out and "shoot some towelheads"is an example of that fear running wild after 9/11. But criticizing the religion itself, pointing out its barbaric tenets, and explaining the penalties for apostasy are not examples of Islamophobia. What Maher and Harris were saying was not Islamophobic, they were simply speaking critical truths about a set of cruel, misogynistic ideas.
- See more at: http://ffrf.org/news/blog/item/21513-what-ben-affleck-missed-in-the-islamophobia-debate-with-bill-maher-and-sam-harris#sthash.53QeJT85.KylQ0Dvb.dpuf
I agree with Andrew.
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Just to beat my head against a wall one more time, yes, bigotry against Islam is racism. [View all]
jobycom
Apr 2015
OP
absolutely. I was raised in "the church". A very conservative evangelical one. I used to "believe"
PeaceNikki
Apr 2015
#12
Could you change back? I mean, let's say Ted Cruz gets elected and makes us register
jobycom
Apr 2015
#27
Free will regarding religious belief is discussed in the Religion group from time to time.
ZombieHorde
Apr 2015
#13
So in your mind all Muslims were veils and eat pork chops, but would rather not?
jobycom
Apr 2015
#96
nice try, those are just opinions from UN/EU paper pushers, and no more valuable than any other
msongs
Apr 2015
#3
The most populous Islamic country in the world is Indonesia. Are you saying that Islamaphobes are
scarletwoman
Apr 2015
#4
I am not, and didn't imply that in my post. I didn't even say anything that sounded like that.
jobycom
Apr 2015
#84
I disagree. According to the federal government, Arab people are caucasian when filling out race.
catbyte
Apr 2015
#5
Victim? What about victims of religious ideology? Women losing rights, LGBT fighting for them?
PeaceNikki
Apr 2015
#110
See, that post demonstrates exactly why it is racism in all it's sickened ugliness.
jobycom
Apr 2015
#94
I think the bigger point of contention is defining "bigotry" in this discussion.
PeaceNikki
Apr 2015
#32
Why is it all the people who mount absurd defenses of religion always claim to be atheists?
Bluenorthwest
Apr 2015
#15
It's very easy to make a category error when talking about any race, group or culture
CJCRANE
Apr 2015
#40
more to the point, criticism of islam is not the same as "islamophobia" and is not in itself racist
Warren Stupidity
Apr 2015
#45
No it doesn't. Huge numbers of catholics simply disagree with their church's official positions. nt.
Warren Stupidity
Apr 2015
#77
So let me get this straight, bigotry against Arab Christians is Islamophobia?
Pooka Fey
Apr 2015
#54
Religious animus is a form of bigotry, not racism. Both are bad, but not the same.
leveymg
Apr 2015
#59
Nobody here says any of those things. People say Islam, the ideology, is violent and sexist
PeaceNikki
Apr 2015
#93
Idiotic? OK, let's play that fucking game, chief. This whole OP is fucking idiotic.
PeaceNikki
Apr 2015
#99
I didn't redefine race. Those who think it is about skin color are redefining it.
jobycom
Apr 2015
#86
There are a lot of passages in the Koran commanding that Muslims kill infidels.
Arugula Latte
Apr 2015
#117
None of those verses command Muslims to kill infidels. Care to learn how language is manipulated?
jobycom
Apr 2015
#121
I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart. Anne Frank K&R
Tierra_y_Libertad
Apr 2015
#105
You can dislike a religion or even hate a religion without disliking/hating it's followers
Marrah_G
Apr 2015
#120
Yes, of course you can. As I said in the OP. But hatred of Muslims based on stereotypes of religion
jobycom
Apr 2015
#122
That makes absolutely no sense, if I went even against an even more hierarchical religion...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#134
Yes I do, particularly as hypocrites, many of them, such as Thomas Jefferson and George Washington..
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#139
First off, most people develop morality independent of their holy books, if they didn't, we would...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#141
True, I developed my ethics based on simple things like human rights and fairness...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#144
Wouldn't "intersects with racism" be just as easy to say and more accurate?
DirkGently
Apr 2015
#136
The Quran is a book full of violence, excuses for violence, sexism, homophobia...
Humanist_Activist
Apr 2015
#137
I do not love, relish nor respect people who use their religion as a club
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
Apr 2015
#150