General Discussion

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)

30. I want to try to be respectful of "Hoyt" here, BUT . .

Reply to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Thu Apr 16, 2015, 05:34 PM

Apr 2015

I think a person who argues that Americans who oppose the TPP
". . just don't care about other countries, ." is being deliberately deceptive.

In fact NAFTA was and is horrible for average people in ALL THREE COUNTRIES,
but perhaps most of all for Mexico which per NAFTA was flooded with cheap US
corn, displacing millions of small farmers and contributing mightily to creating
the failed state that Mexico is today.

Like NAFTA, the TPP is actually not at all about the well being of average people.
It is a new Bill of Rights for Multi-national corporations.

And it is quite properly opposed by working people ALL OVER THE WORLD, NOT JUST IN THE US.

Hoyt surely knows some of this.

If anyone doubts what I write here, I'll be glad to post the reactions of working folks from
New Zealand (where I spend a little time), Australia, Japan, Canada, or some of the other TPP countries.

If it takes a mass uprising to stop this (like the WTO in Seattle), I say get it on.
When will people finally say "Basta Ya!" (Enough already!)

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Passage Of TPP Will Be A Disaster For Dems Just Like NAFTA was. I'm Really Pissed. [View all] TheMastersNemesis Apr 2015 OP

I'm really surprised that Democrats are against foreign countries getting a little wealth. Hoyt Apr 2015 #1

presents conclusions based on facts not in evidence. nt msongs Apr 2015 #2

But why fast track it ?? QuestionAlways Apr 2015 #62

Hello. SamKnause Apr 2015 #4

Trade is about WORK, not philanthropy. closeupready Apr 2015 #5

TPP is much more than trade. Read articles by Ezra Klein and Jeff Spross. Hoyt Apr 2015 #9

Then take up that discussion in your own thread. closeupready Apr 2015 #13

This is a discussion that TPP will be a disaster for Dems. I don't think so. Hoyt Apr 2015 #14

LOL - 'class warfare!' 'censorship!' 'protectionism!' closeupready Apr 2015 #19

Wait until the first time a signatory sues to change a law in the US... bunnies Apr 2015 #24

They actually can't do that. Why don't you read up on the tribunals that have been in effect Hoyt Apr 2015 #34

hmm. bunnies Apr 2015 #43

Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) authority nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #54

And she deliberately mischaracterized the issues that can be disputed. Hoyt Apr 2015 #102

Noted, you will claim US Senators lie nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #104

Noted lark Apr 2015 #180

Thank you! nt bunnies Apr 2015 #139

You welcome nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #145

So the TPP won't be a disaster.... daleanime Apr 2015 #33

The big sell job is underway zeemike Apr 2015 #47

Definitely part of the problem.... daleanime Apr 2015 #49

And so Obama can sign it before he is out of office. zeemike Apr 2015 #69

Exactly. CentralMass Apr 2015 #251

Feel free to explain how that trade agreement can help us, long-term. jeff47 Apr 2015 #7

The countries want to sell goods to us. Krugman made that statement in 2015. Hoyt Apr 2015 #12

You couldn't even get to the second paragraph? jeff47 Apr 2015 #96

I forgot, many here don't give a darn about peasants in other countries. Hoyt Apr 2015 #101

Yup, you are correct nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #106

"Krugman points out, trade agreements aren't the cause of our problems" Joe Turner Apr 2015 #113

And krugman does not even say that in that piece either nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #114

Here are a couple of others -- Hoyt Apr 2015 #123

You're free to show us the way by reducing yourself to those lower standards. jeff47 Apr 2015 #115

And you are acting like a 1%er from another country's perspective. Hoyt Apr 2015 #124

Golly, you just have so much trouble managing to answer a simple question. jeff47 Apr 2015 #167

the cheerleaders don't expect to suffer but they're ok if others do ND-Dem Apr 2015 #250

Such agreements need to be win-win and as I see it, it is... StarzGuy Apr 2015 #148

You hope our corporations make big money and get taxed sufficiently to cover Hoyt Apr 2015 #149

OH Yeah.....THAT is going to happen. bvar22 Apr 2015 #189

You change tax and wage laws, you don't disadvantage the US corporations for next 50 years or more Hoyt Apr 2015 #194

LMAO, you really think the current Congress is going to increase nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #196

Do you think disadvantaging corporations for 50 years, while we wait for a Democratic Congress Hoyt Apr 2015 #198

Actually you are wrong, they are not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #201

We are talking INCOME taxes. I will try to be more precise for your benefit. Hoyt Apr 2015 #203

I will be more precise to you nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #205

Well, Obama has been successful in getting more money out of the wealthy. Hoyt Apr 2015 #213

That attack on voters is not going to get any purchase nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #214

Must be awful to feel helpless and conspired against. Hoyt Apr 2015 #217

Novel, now turn on me by even hinting I feel helpless nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #218

nafta was great for peasants in other countries; ask the mexican farmers how they fared! ND-Dem Apr 2015 #260

Here is the LAST paragraph of his editorial nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #100

I have quoted that in posts to Manny. Yet, Krugman still says people have mischaracterized the Hoyt Apr 2015 #105

And he is still having issues with what the motives of the US Chamber are nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #107

I have faith in Obama and Clinton. You apparently think Obama is selling you into slavery. Hoyt Apr 2015 #109

I believe this is one of a series of really bad treaties nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #110

The toxic idealology is the Nationalism and greed I see here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #111

Nope, actually what is happening is the end of the nation state nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #112

The fact ignorant, racist, callous tbaggers agree with you, should be a signal. Hoyt Apr 2015 #125

What, that oligarchy is here nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #127

And I guess Princeton University is also part nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #129

Wow..there it is and some of us have been saying this for quite a while now. haikugal Apr 2015 #256

Talk started in 2002 or 3 nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #257

My wingnut friend told me Jackpine Radical Apr 2015 #130

Yes, exactly. "Trust me" has turned into "Screw you" Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #140

That is a nice thing to know nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #142

Nadin, I have a question. haikugal Apr 2015 #252

Sure nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #253

Thank you! haikugal Apr 2015 #254

If you do not read anything else nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #255

Yes you do... haikugal Apr 2015 #258

There are real gains to America to getting these rules right. Hoyt Apr 2015 #122

Did you even read your own links? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #126

I said they were balanced articles, more than the "Obama is turning us into slaves" bunch here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #135

Show me where anybody has said that nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #136

Emphasis on "good" n/t arcane1 Apr 2015 #8

EXACTLY. Everything I've ever posted says "Good." Further, I don't believe Obama will endorse it Hoyt Apr 2015 #17

Same was said about Clinton during the NAFTA debate in 1993. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #27

NAFTA has been a good start for a North American alliance. As Robert Reich said, Hoyt Apr 2015 #31

You would make a good comedian. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #37

Glad I can make you laugh. Now if I could encourage you to actually do some research and Hoyt Apr 2015 #39

Well, I've been right 100% of the time on all the other so called "Free Trade Agreements" Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #45

Yeah, let's see what Robert Reich is saying, shall we... nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #52

You will get to see the final text if it's finaluzed. Hopefully a few will actually read it. Hoyt Apr 2015 #56

So why is Proffesor Reich complaining of the secrecy? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #61

Reich supported it with NAFTA. Truthfully I think he's just ticked Obama, Clinton Hoyt Apr 2015 #64

Convenient nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #71

But why fast track it ?? Should we not know what we are getting into? QuestionAlways Apr 2015 #68

For the same reason most of these treaties are fast tracked nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #72

You will know, you will get to read it before it goes to Congress. Hoyt Apr 2015 #74

You're just lying now. Marr Apr 2015 #170

And TPP will fix that since Canada and Mexico begged to be included in TPP. Hoyt Apr 2015 #171

You've already been proved wrong (putting it generously), so you downshift into Marr Apr 2015 #172

I'm saying -- like Ezra Klein and others -- we need to look at the final document to be Hoyt Apr 2015 #173

Then you're against Fast Track authority. Oh, no-- you aren't. Marr Apr 2015 #174

Even under FTrack, the documents will be available for review before Congress does a thing. Hoyt Apr 2015 #175

Here is a word I think you do not understand nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #177

Sadly, some people don't care about the US Worker or the Environment. bvar22 Apr 2015 #15

PROTECTIONIST! ISOLATIONIST! BENGHAZI! closeupready Apr 2015 #21

So why doesn't Mexico withdraw, and why did they beg to join TPP? Hoyt Apr 2015 #35

That is some bent rhetoric. bvar22 Apr 2015 #42

When was Mexico in a better position? I hope they do a lot better, but they are still better Hoyt Apr 2015 #48

Where are your stats to back up your claim? bvar22 Apr 2015 #58

How about those who will get jobs at the new Audi plant? Hoyt Apr 2015 #63

Again, dodge noted. bvar22 Apr 2015 #70

Take a few minutes and look it up. Hoyt Apr 2015 #77

What does randomly pointing at GDP growth have to do with the conversation? TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #116

Who reaps the rewards is not the purpose of a trade agreement. That's something entirely Hoyt Apr 2015 #120

Your argument previously was that it helped workers and GDP growth was presented as evidence. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #137

Nope.. My argument was GDP increased dramatically. It's up to domestic policy to get it to the right Hoyt Apr 2015 #138

But a few economists, including from El Colegio de Mexico disagree with you nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #141

Did you look at the GDP chart? I think it speaks for itself. Hoyt Apr 2015 #147

No it does not speak for itself nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #178

The money came in, it just wasn't distributed properly. Trade deals don't involve the latter. Hoyt Apr 2015 #185

No the one who does not get it is you nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #187

I can assure you I have not benefited; however, I know people who have bought some nice Hoyt Apr 2015 #190

Tell me in what way did those workers really benefit nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #195

Simple answer -- they could be a lot worse off. Hoyt Apr 2015 #197

Ah sure they could be a lot worst off nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #200

That's why the TPP is good for them, and they want in. Hoyt Apr 2015 #202

So they are going to rewrite art. 17 and reverse the structural reforms nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #204

It makes no difference if the money is never distributed other than making bad even worse. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #150

Trickle Down Economic bullshit. TDale313 Apr 2015 #176

i can mention one outstanding name nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #121

It has been 21 YEARS since NAFTA passed. bvar22 Apr 2015 #79

Since Canada and Mexico are part of TPP, Obama is in fact renegotiating it. Hoyt Apr 2015 #80

You must have missed the "immediately renegotiate" in your rush to criticize me. bvar22 Apr 2015 #88

You have to look at a country overall.. Small corn farmers were losing before NAFTA, just like, Hoyt Apr 2015 #93

If I hear someone repeat that right wing "buggy whip manufacturers" crap one more time... ND-Dem Apr 2015 #246

Buggy whip manufacturers short for: Palm Pilot, big long green paper spreadsheets, manual typewriter Hoyt Apr 2015 #248

so boring ND-Dem Apr 2015 #249

Makes me want to reach out and touch somebody ... Damn! haikugal Apr 2015 #259

I would love you to tell this to Mexican workers nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #57

Pay rates and tax rates are not part of trade agreements.. That's another aspect. Hoyt Apr 2015 #78

Nice dodge nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #81

There are protections in the TPP. NAFTA boosted Mexico's economy Hoyt Apr 2015 #86

Like in the US where the US Congress has not passed nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #89

Most of that rant has nothing to do with trade agreements.. While I probably agree with a lot of Hoyt Apr 2015 #92

Except that this is what boosters promised nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #94

Just so you know, your never time is never wasted here. stillwaiting Apr 2015 #159

. ctsnowman Apr 2015 #193

people who defend such bullshit are usually benefiting from it Skittles Apr 2015 #143

In this case not even pulling stats from ass nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #144

Please post thses "better worker and environmental protections"... bvar22 Apr 2015 #76

The worker and environmental protection are there nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #83

"Truth is, those multinationals could go to Africa," bvar22 Apr 2015 #20

I'm really surprised that Democrats support Foreign Corporations undermining our Environmental laws. sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #22

The problem is that the profits earned from the trade that these trade agreements JDPriestly Apr 2015 #44

Profits related to a foreign corporation operations here, are taxed here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #50

In most cases they are not taxed here. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #82

I think those are domestic corporations who take that approach to avoid some taxes. Hoyt Apr 2015 #85

As an aside. Did you see this? JDPriestly Apr 2015 #87

There seems to be only one cheerleader in this thread - perhaps Hoyt could answer. erronis Apr 2015 #53

There are actually a number of people here wanting to wait until Obama Hoyt Apr 2015 #95

BOGUS. bvar22 Apr 2015 #207

And young folks will be paying for the next group of retirees. Hoyt Apr 2015 #212

Yeah....kicked the can down the road until 2037. bvar22 Apr 2015 #215

No I am not against Social Security, just people who think today's worker Hoyt Apr 2015 #216

Well, TPP certainly won't help small farmers in Japan Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #84

Bullshit. It is not WE who are grabbing wealth, it is the 1%. The corporations. NOT American djean111 Apr 2015 #90

I doubt that any Democrats are as bad as you portray. We've seen parts of this rhett o rick Apr 2015 #97

Truth is bad trade agreements have degraded the American Workforce Joe Turner Apr 2015 #98

Sure, there's something to that Babel_17 Apr 2015 #99

So what makes you think this is going to be any better for foreign countries than it is for us? jwirr Apr 2015 #133

It's like the folly of the Vietnam War Mnpaul Apr 2015 #230

Exactly. I am old enough to remember a time when it was sometimes different. Under FDR our jwirr Apr 2015 #231

I too remember the days Mnpaul Apr 2015 #234

I agree. I see it in the younger ones in my family. They know we are in trouble but do not jwirr Apr 2015 #236

I fear Mnpaul Apr 2015 #239

Yes, a good example is the number of young families that just accept that they will not have jwirr Apr 2015 #241

Another position that you're on the wrong side of. Why does that not surprise me? X_Digger Apr 2015 #134

BALONEY. THE TPP IS SUPER SECRET, IS BEING PUSHED HARD TO BE "FAST TRACKED"...WHY? drynberg Apr 2015 #162

OK, I hear you, but... PatrickforO Apr 2015 #163

You are a true "free" trade believer. Ronny Raygun and Milton thank you fasttense Apr 2015 #169

What is there "good" in this treaty? lark Apr 2015 #179

Horsepucky 99Forever Apr 2015 #206

If only the wealth the U.S. was "grabbing" were spread among its citizens. maddiemom Apr 2015 #221

I'm surprised, myself MFrohike Apr 2015 #247

No, it won't. Who else are you going to vote for? jeff47 Apr 2015 #3

Yep... Gonna Be A REAL Interesting Vote... And THAT... Won't Go Unnoticed... WillyT Apr 2015 #6

I thought the same about CAFTA, bvar22 Apr 2015 #36

And that is how the game is played zeemike Apr 2015 #67

Yeah, wasn't CAFTA great Mnpaul Apr 2015 #235

I remember that game. Remember it well. Autumn Apr 2015 #237

Agree. This will be be dumped on the shoulders of every DEM. 2016 is at stake. misterhighwasted Apr 2015 #10

http://www.thecommentator.com/system/articles/inner_pictures/000/005/415/original/obama-laughing.jpg blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #11

Call your Senators, Representatives and Whitehouse to express your opposition to this global Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #16

+100 Duppers Apr 2015 #28

TPP is great for Plutocracy... Octafish Apr 2015 #18

"and the poor will become the super-majority." bullsnarfle Apr 2015 #223

Politicians think they can do this kind of thing ... ananda Apr 2015 #23

Some of us in independnet media try nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #26

Thank you for your efforts. ananda Apr 2015 #40

x10000000 truebrit71 Apr 2015 #186

Such high drama. It's not a disaster. Gman Apr 2015 #25

True and if NAFTA was such a "disaster" treestar Apr 2015 #158

NAFTA was a disaster Mnpaul Apr 2015 #232

It is no surprise that Obama is pushing this n2doc Apr 2015 #29

I want to try to be respectful of "Hoyt" here, BUT . . FairWinds Apr 2015 #30

Some people will defend ANYTHING, regardless of how heinous, if their hero supports it. Maedhros Apr 2015 #41

well if the Dems don't lose regularly they can't blame the voters MisterP Apr 2015 #32

We don't have to choose between trade and no trade. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #38

You are absolutely correct. Thanks. Faryn Balyncd Apr 2015 #51

Thanks for that reminder! Babel_17 Apr 2015 #103

and our Constitution delegates that task to Congress Mnpaul Apr 2015 #238

Bill gave us NAFTA, Hillary will give us TPP 99th_Monkey Apr 2015 #46

How, specifically, do you think TPP will destroy American workers? randome Apr 2015 #55

It will apparently destroy a lot of Japanese agriculture, Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #73

There's not really any small agricultural producers left in the US. jeff47 Apr 2015 #118

That's a shame Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #119

In my area in northern California that is not true dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #151

Most Japanese produce farmers grow food in the way you describe. Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #153

Interesting dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #155

Yes, I am in Japan Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #244

Cool image search dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #245

I'm in Japan for the long haul Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #261

You're actually agreeing with me. jeff47 Apr 2015 #165

sort of dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #225

Except that sentence wasn't the end of the post. jeff47 Apr 2015 #226

Stunned that you persist on this line dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #227

We have an example, and little reason it wouldn't happen again. jeff47 Apr 2015 #228

Thanks for your response dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #233

Same way NAFTA did. jeff47 Apr 2015 #117

Supposedly, Obama sees the TPP as a rewrite of NAFTA. randome Apr 2015 #164

"Baked in" environmental concerns are worthless... bvar22 Apr 2015 #209

I hope there will be something with teeth in it. randome Apr 2015 #222

As soon as we start putting BIllionaires and Wall Street Bankers who break the law in JAIL, bvar22 Apr 2015 #224

+1 treestar Apr 2015 #157

Kicked! ibewlu606 Apr 2015 #59

Me too but let's be honest. Rightwing ideology and triangularization won. mmonk Apr 2015 #60

...From the man who promised to 'renegotiate NAFTA'... AzDar Apr 2015 #65

He told us that Mnpaul Apr 2015 #240

" And poverty will be as endemic as the worst 3rd world nations today." dgibby Apr 2015 #66

You Can't Dress This Trade Deal On Steroids Up colsohlibgal Apr 2015 #75

This is terrible sadoldgirl Apr 2015 #91

Stop the passage of TTP! democrank Apr 2015 #108

+100 840high Apr 2015 #128

I'm disgusted. blackspade Apr 2015 #131

The party is definitely going to take the blame. Cannot see how any Democrat can not realize jwirr Apr 2015 #132

and the Republicans are handing them the fail Mnpaul Apr 2015 #242

You get what you vote for. DeSwiss Apr 2015 #146

+1 Truth cuts like a knife nationalize the fed Apr 2015 #154

Nightmare. Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2015 #152

For the life of me I can't figure out Obama on this one. Vinca Apr 2015 #156

I can. this is a multigenerational project nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #181

Buddy can you spare a dime? Dem_in_Nebr. Apr 2015 #160

It sure will. That's why we must oppose it tooth and nail. PatrickforO Apr 2015 #161

Posters please stop trying to defend the indefensible. I believe NONE of it. I question GoneFishin Apr 2015 #166

By a margin of two to one . . FairWinds Apr 2015 #168

How can you possibly be pro Labor and pro TPP? liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #182

I think many are over-reacting to this. DCBob Apr 2015 #183

And a small minority here are either being overly naive or Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #208

I tend to have a more global than nationalistic perspective. DCBob Apr 2015 #243

No. Read further before you set your hair on fire. rury Apr 2015 #184

Don't be fooled by the propagandists. TPP will be a fucking disaster for working folks. GoneFishin Apr 2015 #188

Democrats actually defending secret trade agreements.. raindaddy Apr 2015 #191

A disaster for politicians... americannightmare Apr 2015 #192

Once again, it is worth repeating that . . FairWinds Apr 2015 #199

But it will be awesome for Republicans masquerading as Dems in the Third Way! LondonReign2 Apr 2015 #210

Ask Elizabeth Warren what she thinks of the TPP INdemo Apr 2015 #211

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Apr 2015 #219

I was teaching a summer class of teenagers with various learning disabilities when NAFTA maddiemom Apr 2015 #220

Have you read it? ucrdem Apr 2015 #229