General Discussion

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)

267. You're right, and the complexity of it all is the best argument against fast track.

Thu Apr 16, 2015, 10:48 PM

Apr 2015

The "lot of reading" will be done primarily by specialists (on copyright, on environment, on labor, etc.) looking at particular chapters. Even for them, however, it's a lot of reading and a lot of background reading and a lot of discussion among experts in order to arrive at a reliable conclusion. Doing a proper job of that under the fast track authority that Obama wanted simply wouldn't be realistic.

The good news is that the unholy alliance of Obama/Boehner/McConnell didn't get everything they wanted. I'm not completely familiar with today's compromise on fast track, but, even on the most cynical view, it appears to ameliorate some of the worst aspects of the Obama plan, although (as one would expect from a compromise) it still has major flaws.

As someone who voted for Obama twice, I still find it galling (and inexplicable) that we have to negotiate against him in order to salvage even something.

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Question for Hillary backers: how do *you* feel about the TPP? [View all] MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 OP

... Crickets ..... peacebird Apr 2015 #1

a lot of us ignore Manny so I don't think waiting a little while OKNancy Apr 2015 #4

i pretty much do, too. i went above and beyond, replying. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #7

If only! MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #10

Many of us also doubt the sincerity of his "questions"...nt SidDithers Apr 2015 #21

Do tell, Sidney. DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2015 #29

sure. i assumed no sincerity but effort at a gotcha. especially after moments, see crickets seabeyond Apr 2015 #30

So what do you think of the TPP? sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #226

Better question, What does Hillary think of TPP ? n/t orpupilofnature57 Apr 2015 #229

I don't know what she thinks. She will be asked, so I guess sooner or later we will find out. sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #268

I agree, besides the " Mindless Cheerleaders " not many comprehensive orpupilofnature57 Apr 2015 #283

How Does One Ignore Manny, And Yet Know What He Posted ??? WillyT Apr 2015 #53

Right? truebrit71 Apr 2015 #105

I do it all the time. nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #153

DUzy! Fearless Apr 2015 #224

If they ignored Manny AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #290

LOL. If you ignore him why do so many of you post in his threads? But never to discuss issues. nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #185

Well since you're here, can you answer the question? sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #221

On one side you have the anti-TPP posting fact after fact, and on the corporate side rhett o rick Apr 2015 #259

True. I can't imagine waiting to see where a politician stands, no matter how much I may like them, sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #269

Crickets indeed... chapdrum Apr 2015 #235

. . . hifiguy Apr 2015 #2

1. Hillary was working for the President OKNancy Apr 2015 #3

So in short, she had to do it, it's probably a good thing, MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #12

I think he held a gun to her head and told her she had to support it davidpdx Apr 2015 #166

Which republican candidates for president are on the record against TPP? NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #228

"If Republicans do it, so can Democrats." nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #234

1) So, she isn't working for the president now Kelvin Mace Apr 2015 #14

I hear you on the disappearance of jobs davidpdx Apr 2015 #167

We used to be home to Burlington, Kelvin Mace Apr 2015 #175

Here's what she said in 2011: "Hillary's Trade Dilemma" KoKo Apr 2015 #66

"I don't think Obama would push something that would be detrimental to the working person." JDPriestly Apr 2015 #86

I didn't think Bill Clinton would introduce NAFTA, either.... KoKo Apr 2015 #89

He didn't introduce it. Nafta had its genesis in the Reagan and G.H.W. Bush administrations. CentralMass Apr 2015 #159

Meanwhile, Al Gore signed on to the Kyoto Protocol for the US, Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #280

He actually did some liberal things as governor Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #160

Obama would not support something he thought would be detrimental treestar Apr 2015 #249

#5 - are you kidding? 840high Apr 2015 #113

Hope� springs eternal. Marr Apr 2015 #149

#5... really? What makes you think that? cui bono Apr 2015 #162

Yup - in a normal world this would be collusion and bribery and prison. erronis Apr 2015 #227

I also care about equal rights for LGBT and women as do all progressives. But I think that if rhett o rick Apr 2015 #186

I agree. bvar22 Apr 2015 #205

"I don't think Obama would push something that would be detrimental to the working person" AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #292

Let me save some time here, Manny: Maedhros Apr 2015 #5

I think you hit all the points. zeemike Apr 2015 #56

Nope, left out an important one. "We support equal rights for women and LGBT and don't give a crap rhett o rick Apr 2015 #187

Yep that is another goodie. zeemike Apr 2015 #189

Brutal. libdem4life Apr 2015 #59

6. Souls aren't really worth that much anyway. L0oniX Apr 2015 #64

..... madfloridian Apr 2015 #94

Thank you. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #95

Oh yes - Pass it and then 840high Apr 2015 #115

You'll have an opportunity to read it before its debated by Congress. I bet most here Hoyt Apr 2015 #127

Not until 4 years after ratification. nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #135

Manny, either you know that applies to the interim negotiating documents, not the final draft to be Hoyt Apr 2015 #137

Someone needs to tell the Washington Post, and quick! MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #142

They are wrong. Read the actual dicuments. The negotiating documents say they are not to be released Hoyt Apr 2015 #144

So according to Hoyt, the Washington Post and I spew BS. MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #146

On this, pretty much. Read what the negotiating documents say, even though Hoyt Apr 2015 #154

Interim negotiating documents. So let's look at who are doing the rhett o rick Apr 2015 #271

Nope. US government officials appointed by the Perez were negotiaters. Hoyt Apr 2015 #273

One day later, you've found out you were wrong. How quickly will you post it here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #206

I was right at the time MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #207

LMAO. No, you misinterpreted something someone told you that was incorrect. Worse, you didn't Hoyt Apr 2015 #208

Looks like some Democrats in Congress are skeptical. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #195

... BeanMusical Apr 2015 #281

That was the GOP rant on Obamacare AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #293

+1000 valerief Apr 2015 #220

You did forget one: "It hasn't happened yet, so no criticism allowed. Wait until it passes." cui bono Apr 2015 #294

Their understanding of Democracy is reduced to this: Maedhros Apr 2015 #295

i am not a supporter but have been defending those rights to be supporters. i hate it. as i did seabeyond Apr 2015 #6

I am not a fan of TTP. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #8

Something I've been wanting to say to you for a while. Quackers Apr 2015 #43

Thank you very much for the kind words. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #46

hrmjustin always argues in good faith, and should be commended.[n/t] Maedhros Apr 2015 #80

+1 nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #84

+2 F4lconF16 Apr 2015 #99

+3 villager Apr 2015 #109

+4 TDale313 Apr 2015 #116

+1000 rhett o rick Apr 2015 #196

Oh yes - always a pleasure. 840high Apr 2015 #117

That would be nice.... daleanime Apr 2015 #49

Is DeMarco Murry's contract going to be a good thing or a bad thing for Philly in 2015? ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #9

The Obama Administration is rejecting your argument, at least when it suits them Jim Lane Apr 2015 #171

Really? ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #174

That's an indefensible double standard. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #198

Come on ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #204

You're still upholding a double standard. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #222

Okay. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #223

"They" said the same things about NAFTA, CAFTA, and every other "free trade"deal. bvar22 Apr 2015 #203

That's because it would take a lot of reading for most people treestar Apr 2015 #248

You're right, and the complexity of it all is the best argument against fast track. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #267

There are certain DUers who have made a bogeyman of the TPP treestar Apr 2015 #247

Well since every thing I've seen has been bad for the 99%. We know that if it favors rhett o rick Apr 2015 #250

First,why do you insist on calling something that we do not know to have been agreed to ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #263

First things first... one_voice Apr 2015 #11

Gees Manny fadedrose Apr 2015 #13

Beautiful. sheshe2 Apr 2015 #50

I'm afraid when he pulls the bunny out of the hat dflprincess Apr 2015 #100

giggle nt fadedrose Apr 2015 #131

A la Bullwinkle, no doubt Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #164

Nice find! dflprincess Apr 2015 #264

Any agreement that imposes corporate, international trade courts on us an d our government JDPriestly Apr 2015 #101

We've had those same trade courts for decades, as has the European Union. Hoyt Apr 2015 #128

I have objected to them all along. We don't need to get another one. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #138

Haven't really been harmful and have helped us and other countries attract investment and jobs Hoyt Apr 2015 #139

Over the line! BrotherIvan Apr 2015 #15

Yet more divisive chair throwing in GD. longship Apr 2015 #16

If that wasn't sarcasm, then let point out that you've pretty nearly fulfilled post 5's FiveGoodMen Apr 2015 #23

Aka "11-dimensional chess." blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #41

Let's get this fucking straight right now. longship Apr 2015 #44

Where is the DNC, DSCC... any leadership forthcoming? Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #61

People are still making the same mistake that Manny is making. longship Apr 2015 #140

Who are the gatekeepers? Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #179

That is a great question. longship Apr 2015 #180

So the gatekeepers are who exactly? Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #182

Gees, Louise! longship Apr 2015 #183

Oh, OK. Problem solved, Thanks Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #184

What you you recommend as an alternative? longship Apr 2015 #188

A multi-prong approach Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #190

If one takes over the precincts, there are no local gatekeepers longship Apr 2015 #193

Do you think you could be a bit clearer? LOL. Good Post. libdem4life Apr 2015 #63

There is a huge difference between committed Democrats... DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2015 #68

Hillary's role in crafting the TPP is not some trivial bit of political sausage-making. Maedhros Apr 2015 #82

Ageed it wasnt about the TPP but rather a trollish attempt to attack Hillary. cstanleytech Apr 2015 #96

Not so much Hillary as those that support her... one_voice Apr 2015 #118

Calling Manny a troll isn't cool. But it seems the default when someone can't defend their stand. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #211

Take it up with wiki then cstanleytech Apr 2015 #213

Calling Manny a troll is rude and shouldn't be necessary to get your point across. nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #215

But my point is that it was a trollish post or do you disagree that it wasnt trollish? cstanleytech Apr 2015 #216

Do you agree that calling a long time DU poster a troll is rude? nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #217

I think its far worse to defend a trolling post just because someone has posted here for a long time cstanleytech Apr 2015 #232

If you don't like his post then you have the option of alerting, countering his points or ignoring. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #245

I called it like I see and so far I havent seen you once deny that it wasnt a troll post. cstanleytech Apr 2015 #255

Calling it like you see it isn't justification for being rude. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #256

"I don't answer your questions." Thats close enough, thanks. nt cstanleytech Apr 2015 #265

If the OP'S questions are making you feel discordant or upset then it is you who are the problem as TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #236

Except I dont have to defend her because I'm not supporting her because to be honest cstanleytech Apr 2015 #266

I didn't refer to a her for you to defend. Still ducking the policy position. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #270

The Republican party has a huge advantage in organizing... Fumesucker Apr 2015 #274

But it's a few days until TPP fast track comes up for a vote n/t eridani Apr 2015 #65

And a lot of the Democratic caucus members who have seen the TPP agreement, the written JDPriestly Apr 2015 #108

Against it if it passes, ignore it if it doesn't. Autumn Apr 2015 #296

You are free to "take a breath". But I see this coming election the last chance for rhett o rick Apr 2015 #200

Well then I suggest that everybody get working on turning over the state legislatures. longship Apr 2015 #209

Some of us are busy but I don't agree that electing a outspoken progressive President rhett o rick Apr 2015 #210

No he will not let it rest treestar Apr 2015 #285

She and Obama likely don't think "that will likely cause bigger profits for the rich, and more job pampango Apr 2015 #17

Are you trying to say that the TPP is going to fix NAFTA? I hope not. nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #212

Yawn! trumad Apr 2015 #18

Lol~ sheshe2 Apr 2015 #33

Past your bed time? blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #42

Nah...I get bored with repetitive shit. trumad Apr 2015 #47

I think the TPP stinks. So did NAFTA. That Obama supports TPP stinks. Triana Apr 2015 #19

" I'll vote for whoever the nominee is. " FiveGoodMen Apr 2015 #25

ding ding ding.... mike_c Apr 2015 #28

It's either that or a Republican in 2016. Triana Apr 2015 #38

lather, rinse, repeat frylock Apr 2015 #54

We must not succumb to the politics of fear. Maedhros Apr 2015 #85

And voting for the bad Dem (just because) gets you worse and worse Dems. FiveGoodMen Apr 2015 #91

This is the time to back a candidate you really like. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #110

This is Hillary Clinton's PERFECT opportunity to prove... 99Forever Apr 2015 #219

...^ that 840high Apr 2015 #121

What is O'Malley's position on TPP? BainsBane Apr 2015 #20

You make some outstanding comments here BainsBane. lovemydog Apr 2015 #48

Every analysis of the leaked portions of the TPP Maedhros Apr 2015 #87

I'm learning that too. lovemydog Apr 2015 #124

TPP replicates chapter 11 of NAFTA BainsBane Apr 2015 #192

Hillary Clinton *touted* NAFTA MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #93

Will you address my question? BainsBane Apr 2015 #191

O'Malley is against the TPP Jim Lane Apr 2015 #172

Thanks for that BainsBane Apr 2015 #194

I, like everyone else in the world, haven't read it yet. But... JaneyVee Apr 2015 #22

The pentultimate description between Liberal and Conservative. Classic. libdem4life Apr 2015 #88

K&R DeSwiss Apr 2015 #24

Bwahahah...Hils-At-The-Helm� Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #34

I'm not a Hillary backer and I don't like the TPP, but any serious or even honest discussion about Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #26

Hmmmmm. Any discussion of Sen. Clinton voting against CAFTA without mentioning her kelly1mm Apr 2015 #35

+1 davidpdx Apr 2015 #168

+1. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #225

I find it difficult to decide either way on TPP since the details has not been released, all other Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #27

You can tell a lot about it.... daleanime Apr 2015 #51

Speculation. Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #97

The Labor wasn't involved? daleanime Apr 2015 #151

I need the TPP Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #31

What do you need it for? Vattel Apr 2015 #67

The Almighty Demands it Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #69

Seriously, I set you up with a nice soft underhand pitch, Vattel Apr 2015 #70

I figured I would answer in a roundabout way Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #72

Ty, my faith in you has been restored. Vattel Apr 2015 #74

Plus, there's always the off chance a jury might hide "bunghole" Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #75

When it comes to a bunghole, I always vote to hide it, Vattel Apr 2015 #78

Love that place zappaman Apr 2015 #106

Oligarchs who propped up our POTUS for election are likely making him make good on the promise nightscanner59 Apr 2015 #32

It will bring about a middle class that can be robbed in foreign lands! Rex Apr 2015 #36

TPP will be fine, just ask the WTO... Cosmic Kitten Apr 2015 #37

I think you might be asking too much. Phlem Apr 2015 #39

http://www.salem-news.com/stimg/january222009/1percent.patch.jpg blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #40

Why don't you just check her website and see her position on the issue? Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #45

I think its horrible workinclasszero Apr 2015 #52

BOO! DeSwiss Apr 2015 #79

Friends my ass is a big piece of the point. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #252

Huge K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Apr 2015 #55

It is one of many issues. Agnosticsherbet Apr 2015 #57

Hello, Hillary Backer here. I would not support the TPP, and yet I support Hillary cheapdate Apr 2015 #58

Hmmmm,,,, let see Cryptoad Apr 2015 #60

I'll write in Sanders. 840high Apr 2015 #122

O'Malley sees the wisdom in a good TPP. I truthfully don't think Elizabeth Warren is interested Hoyt Apr 2015 #62

There is no such thing as a "good TPP" eridani Apr 2015 #71

Your optimism about Obama is misplaced. He's already pushing fast track. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #173

Simple, no nation will give their best deal if they believe our current Congress is going to Hoyt Apr 2015 #176

I'm OK with the no-amendments part of fast track. It's the "fast" part that's objectionable. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #197

Actually, there are advisory committees that include unions and environmental groups -- Hoyt Apr 2015 #199

Those White House talking points don't answer the objections. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #231

I trust the Obama admin to submit a final TPP to Congress that removes the majority Hoyt Apr 2015 #201

You mean like how ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #230

Since its still in draft form and will be changed, perhaps significantly, and the only details... George II Apr 2015 #73

I would like to know if Obama will withhold his endorsement of her pending HRC's endorsement pnwmom Apr 2015 #76

If Hillary Clinton approves or disapproves of the TPP, it is Hillary who made that decision. Agnosticsherbet Apr 2015 #83

Obama will endorse the nominee. But it can be a strong endorsement or a weak endorsement pnwmom Apr 2015 #111

I wouldn't think he would davidpdx Apr 2015 #170

I'm down with TPP Warren DeMontague Apr 2015 #77

Damn it....now I have a musical earwig. nt msanthrope Apr 2015 #120

I usually wait more than a minute to listen for crickets MyNameGoesHere Apr 2015 #81

. Its generally a good thing... PosterChild Apr 2015 #90

Poster Child for Global Feudalism FiveGoodMen Apr 2015 #92

LOL, Fuedalism.... PosterChild Apr 2015 #98

you're thinking of old feudalism. new feudalism is corporate global super-feudalism. Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #102

I think you're just.. PosterChild Apr 2015 #112

Nice substantive analysis and critique Cheese Sandwich Apr 2015 #125

tell us what's in the bill. spanone Apr 2015 #103

Wow, looks like Hillary backers are growing in numbers rapidly. Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #104

I can't give a shit. Sorry. Thus far, this world civilization is doomed. hunter Apr 2015 #107

yes, we can understand your confusion azureblue Apr 2015 #114

And which outright lie would that be? nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #119

Yes, do tell: to what "outright lie" are you referring? Maedhros Apr 2015 #233

You wouldn't want people to think you're lying about calling me a liar, MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #239

Not a big deal. Mostly just something for Hillary/Obama haters to latch onto. DanTex Apr 2015 #123

Do you think Sen. Warren understands the TPP? MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #126

Absolutely. And so does Obama. DanTex Apr 2015 #129

Krugman thinks the TPP is a bad idea MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #134

Yeah, but he also thinks it's not a big deal. DanTex Apr 2015 #136

No he does not.. The last thing he said is that people he normally agrees with blame NAFTA for Hoyt Apr 2015 #141

"Not to keep you in suspense, I�m thumbs down." MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #143

That's hardly a condemnation. It's more, why is Obama putting up with false criticism by people Hoyt Apr 2015 #152

I wrote that he thinks it's a bad idea. MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #155

"I don't think the proposal is likely to be the the terrible, worker-destroying pact DanTex Apr 2015 #158

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Hoyt Apr 2015 #163

Well said! NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #165

Where does Sen Warren stand on national security? Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #130

She's in favor of it. nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #132

But she voted against the ISIS Resolution. Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #145

And what was that resolution for, exactly? nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #147

This message was self-deleted by its author MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #240

Cat got your tongue? MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #156

Still waiting. nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #241

I think National Security is on her back burner. Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #242

Again: what was the ISIS vote about? MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #244

Perhaps you can ask Warren what it is about, she voted against it. Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #251

She (and I) know exactly what it's about MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #253

Yes I am uncomfortable with the fact of her vote. Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #254

So you're unable to say what the vote was for, MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #258

When I read your first time you ask the question I felt sure you already knew what the ISIS Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #260

The vote was on whether to arm Syrian "rebels", no? nt MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #262

Chickenshit accusation, followed by chickenshit avoidance. Marr Apr 2015 #278

Hyperbole MrMickeysMom Apr 2015 #150

Hillary hates, Hillary bashers.... davidpdx Apr 2015 #169

So does that mean you support it? The question is whether people support it or not. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #218

It means I don't really care about it. DanTex Apr 2015 #238

If you don't know anything about it, how can you dismiss it as minor? nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #243

That's a fair question. A few reasons. DanTex Apr 2015 #276

going to bed but will read the thread tomorrow fadedrose Apr 2015 #133

Don't give a shit. My kids are adult and I'm willing to check out of this life as a homeless person. hunter Apr 2015 #148

That's the spirit! MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #157

You got it! DeSwiss Apr 2015 #261

Manny, it seems to me that the general drift of what we are ALL supposed to do djean111 Apr 2015 #161

One needs only to look at who's pushing it on us. Orsino Apr 2015 #177

how would you feel about a conservative in the whitehouse who will beachbum bob Apr 2015 #178

I don't like TPP, but the alternative (republican president) is too scary. B Calm Apr 2015 #181

I don't think you posted this OP in good faith YoungDemCA Apr 2015 #202

I think you are making the point. Manny and progressives in general don't like the rhett o rick Apr 2015 #214

If this weighty tome of derangement chapdrum Apr 2015 #237

How do Republicans feel about the TPP? treestar Apr 2015 #246

Glad you asked. Republicons love it, as does the 1%, corporations and conservative Democrats. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #257

+1. Don't expect a substantive response. Marr Apr 2015 #277

So letting them win doesn't help. treestar Apr 2015 #284

Again with the questions instead of statements. But here goes. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #287

How has the New Deal been undone? treestar Apr 2015 #289

If you don't think that the protections of the New Deal have been cut back rhett o rick Apr 2015 #291

So Manny what's your conclusion? It appears that the only consistant reply to rhett o rick Apr 2015 #272

The problem seems to be in my asking the question MannyGoldstein Apr 2015 #275

I think the behavior of those not openly opposing the TPP is special. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #288

Naturally, as a well known long time DLC/Third Way supporter of unfettered laissez faire capitalism Zorra Apr 2015 #279

Kick and R. BeanMusical Apr 2015 #282

How does Hillary fell about it? That's how I feel. ileus Apr 2015 #286