General Discussion

dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)

233. Thanks for your response

Fri Apr 17, 2015, 10:19 PM

Apr 2015

I have read a little about the post-NAFTA transformation of Mexican ag since you mentioned it to me some time ago, something I had been largely unaware of.

I just used the term alt ag for lack of knowing a better one, it's a mixed bag, organic, cover crops to reduce water use and pests, planting fields with multiple crops in the same field, I am no expert, my ex is, but farmers use a lot of different combinations of these techniques, some of which are not strictly organic, so I don't have a good label for it. Some it these techniques are being used in larger scale farming, though not to any great extent yet, mostly small farms.

Couldn't a TPP-established tribunal prevent things like labeling product origin or production technique? If so that could do a lot of damage to our domestic efforts.

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Passage Of TPP Will Be A Disaster For Dems Just Like NAFTA was. I'm Really Pissed. [View all] TheMastersNemesis Apr 2015 OP

I'm really surprised that Democrats are against foreign countries getting a little wealth. Hoyt Apr 2015 #1

presents conclusions based on facts not in evidence. nt msongs Apr 2015 #2

But why fast track it ?? QuestionAlways Apr 2015 #62

Hello. SamKnause Apr 2015 #4

Trade is about WORK, not philanthropy. closeupready Apr 2015 #5

TPP is much more than trade. Read articles by Ezra Klein and Jeff Spross. Hoyt Apr 2015 #9

Then take up that discussion in your own thread. closeupready Apr 2015 #13

This is a discussion that TPP will be a disaster for Dems. I don't think so. Hoyt Apr 2015 #14

LOL - 'class warfare!' 'censorship!' 'protectionism!' closeupready Apr 2015 #19

Wait until the first time a signatory sues to change a law in the US... bunnies Apr 2015 #24

They actually can't do that. Why don't you read up on the tribunals that have been in effect Hoyt Apr 2015 #34

hmm. bunnies Apr 2015 #43

Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) authority nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #54

And she deliberately mischaracterized the issues that can be disputed. Hoyt Apr 2015 #102

Noted, you will claim US Senators lie nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #104

Noted lark Apr 2015 #180

Thank you! nt bunnies Apr 2015 #139

You welcome nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #145

So the TPP won't be a disaster.... daleanime Apr 2015 #33

The big sell job is underway zeemike Apr 2015 #47

Definitely part of the problem.... daleanime Apr 2015 #49

And so Obama can sign it before he is out of office. zeemike Apr 2015 #69

Exactly. CentralMass Apr 2015 #251

Feel free to explain how that trade agreement can help us, long-term. jeff47 Apr 2015 #7

The countries want to sell goods to us. Krugman made that statement in 2015. Hoyt Apr 2015 #12

You couldn't even get to the second paragraph? jeff47 Apr 2015 #96

I forgot, many here don't give a darn about peasants in other countries. Hoyt Apr 2015 #101

Yup, you are correct nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #106

"Krugman points out, trade agreements aren't the cause of our problems" Joe Turner Apr 2015 #113

And krugman does not even say that in that piece either nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #114

Here are a couple of others -- Hoyt Apr 2015 #123

You're free to show us the way by reducing yourself to those lower standards. jeff47 Apr 2015 #115

And you are acting like a 1%er from another country's perspective. Hoyt Apr 2015 #124

Golly, you just have so much trouble managing to answer a simple question. jeff47 Apr 2015 #167

the cheerleaders don't expect to suffer but they're ok if others do ND-Dem Apr 2015 #250

Such agreements need to be win-win and as I see it, it is... StarzGuy Apr 2015 #148

You hope our corporations make big money and get taxed sufficiently to cover Hoyt Apr 2015 #149

OH Yeah.....THAT is going to happen. bvar22 Apr 2015 #189

You change tax and wage laws, you don't disadvantage the US corporations for next 50 years or more Hoyt Apr 2015 #194

LMAO, you really think the current Congress is going to increase nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #196

Do you think disadvantaging corporations for 50 years, while we wait for a Democratic Congress Hoyt Apr 2015 #198

Actually you are wrong, they are not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #201

We are talking INCOME taxes. I will try to be more precise for your benefit. Hoyt Apr 2015 #203

I will be more precise to you nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #205

Well, Obama has been successful in getting more money out of the wealthy. Hoyt Apr 2015 #213

That attack on voters is not going to get any purchase nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #214

Must be awful to feel helpless and conspired against. Hoyt Apr 2015 #217

Novel, now turn on me by even hinting I feel helpless nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #218

nafta was great for peasants in other countries; ask the mexican farmers how they fared! ND-Dem Apr 2015 #260

Here is the LAST paragraph of his editorial nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #100

I have quoted that in posts to Manny. Yet, Krugman still says people have mischaracterized the Hoyt Apr 2015 #105

And he is still having issues with what the motives of the US Chamber are nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #107

I have faith in Obama and Clinton. You apparently think Obama is selling you into slavery. Hoyt Apr 2015 #109

I believe this is one of a series of really bad treaties nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #110

The toxic idealology is the Nationalism and greed I see here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #111

Nope, actually what is happening is the end of the nation state nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #112

The fact ignorant, racist, callous tbaggers agree with you, should be a signal. Hoyt Apr 2015 #125

What, that oligarchy is here nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #127

And I guess Princeton University is also part nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #129

Wow..there it is and some of us have been saying this for quite a while now. haikugal Apr 2015 #256

Talk started in 2002 or 3 nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #257

My wingnut friend told me Jackpine Radical Apr 2015 #130

Yes, exactly. "Trust me" has turned into "Screw you" Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #140

That is a nice thing to know nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #142

Nadin, I have a question. haikugal Apr 2015 #252

Sure nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #253

Thank you! haikugal Apr 2015 #254

If you do not read anything else nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #255

Yes you do... haikugal Apr 2015 #258

There are real gains to America to getting these rules right. Hoyt Apr 2015 #122

Did you even read your own links? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #126

I said they were balanced articles, more than the "Obama is turning us into slaves" bunch here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #135

Show me where anybody has said that nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #136

Emphasis on "good" n/t arcane1 Apr 2015 #8

EXACTLY. Everything I've ever posted says "Good." Further, I don't believe Obama will endorse it Hoyt Apr 2015 #17

Same was said about Clinton during the NAFTA debate in 1993. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #27

NAFTA has been a good start for a North American alliance. As Robert Reich said, Hoyt Apr 2015 #31

You would make a good comedian. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #37

Glad I can make you laugh. Now if I could encourage you to actually do some research and Hoyt Apr 2015 #39

Well, I've been right 100% of the time on all the other so called "Free Trade Agreements" Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #45

Yeah, let's see what Robert Reich is saying, shall we... nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #52

You will get to see the final text if it's finaluzed. Hopefully a few will actually read it. Hoyt Apr 2015 #56

So why is Proffesor Reich complaining of the secrecy? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #61

Reich supported it with NAFTA. Truthfully I think he's just ticked Obama, Clinton Hoyt Apr 2015 #64

Convenient nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #71

But why fast track it ?? Should we not know what we are getting into? QuestionAlways Apr 2015 #68

For the same reason most of these treaties are fast tracked nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #72

You will know, you will get to read it before it goes to Congress. Hoyt Apr 2015 #74

You're just lying now. Marr Apr 2015 #170

And TPP will fix that since Canada and Mexico begged to be included in TPP. Hoyt Apr 2015 #171

You've already been proved wrong (putting it generously), so you downshift into Marr Apr 2015 #172

I'm saying -- like Ezra Klein and others -- we need to look at the final document to be Hoyt Apr 2015 #173

Then you're against Fast Track authority. Oh, no-- you aren't. Marr Apr 2015 #174

Even under FTrack, the documents will be available for review before Congress does a thing. Hoyt Apr 2015 #175

Here is a word I think you do not understand nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #177

Sadly, some people don't care about the US Worker or the Environment. bvar22 Apr 2015 #15

PROTECTIONIST! ISOLATIONIST! BENGHAZI! closeupready Apr 2015 #21

So why doesn't Mexico withdraw, and why did they beg to join TPP? Hoyt Apr 2015 #35

That is some bent rhetoric. bvar22 Apr 2015 #42

When was Mexico in a better position? I hope they do a lot better, but they are still better Hoyt Apr 2015 #48

Where are your stats to back up your claim? bvar22 Apr 2015 #58

How about those who will get jobs at the new Audi plant? Hoyt Apr 2015 #63

Again, dodge noted. bvar22 Apr 2015 #70

Take a few minutes and look it up. Hoyt Apr 2015 #77

What does randomly pointing at GDP growth have to do with the conversation? TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #116

Who reaps the rewards is not the purpose of a trade agreement. That's something entirely Hoyt Apr 2015 #120

Your argument previously was that it helped workers and GDP growth was presented as evidence. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #137

Nope.. My argument was GDP increased dramatically. It's up to domestic policy to get it to the right Hoyt Apr 2015 #138

But a few economists, including from El Colegio de Mexico disagree with you nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #141

Did you look at the GDP chart? I think it speaks for itself. Hoyt Apr 2015 #147

No it does not speak for itself nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #178

The money came in, it just wasn't distributed properly. Trade deals don't involve the latter. Hoyt Apr 2015 #185

No the one who does not get it is you nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #187

I can assure you I have not benefited; however, I know people who have bought some nice Hoyt Apr 2015 #190

Tell me in what way did those workers really benefit nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #195

Simple answer -- they could be a lot worse off. Hoyt Apr 2015 #197

Ah sure they could be a lot worst off nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #200

That's why the TPP is good for them, and they want in. Hoyt Apr 2015 #202

So they are going to rewrite art. 17 and reverse the structural reforms nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #204

It makes no difference if the money is never distributed other than making bad even worse. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #150

Trickle Down Economic bullshit. TDale313 Apr 2015 #176

i can mention one outstanding name nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #121

It has been 21 YEARS since NAFTA passed. bvar22 Apr 2015 #79

Since Canada and Mexico are part of TPP, Obama is in fact renegotiating it. Hoyt Apr 2015 #80

You must have missed the "immediately renegotiate" in your rush to criticize me. bvar22 Apr 2015 #88

You have to look at a country overall.. Small corn farmers were losing before NAFTA, just like, Hoyt Apr 2015 #93

If I hear someone repeat that right wing "buggy whip manufacturers" crap one more time... ND-Dem Apr 2015 #246

Buggy whip manufacturers short for: Palm Pilot, big long green paper spreadsheets, manual typewriter Hoyt Apr 2015 #248

so boring ND-Dem Apr 2015 #249

Makes me want to reach out and touch somebody ... Damn! haikugal Apr 2015 #259

I would love you to tell this to Mexican workers nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #57

Pay rates and tax rates are not part of trade agreements.. That's another aspect. Hoyt Apr 2015 #78

Nice dodge nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #81

There are protections in the TPP. NAFTA boosted Mexico's economy Hoyt Apr 2015 #86

Like in the US where the US Congress has not passed nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #89

Most of that rant has nothing to do with trade agreements.. While I probably agree with a lot of Hoyt Apr 2015 #92

Except that this is what boosters promised nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #94

Just so you know, your never time is never wasted here. stillwaiting Apr 2015 #159

. ctsnowman Apr 2015 #193

people who defend such bullshit are usually benefiting from it Skittles Apr 2015 #143

In this case not even pulling stats from ass nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #144

Please post thses "better worker and environmental protections"... bvar22 Apr 2015 #76

The worker and environmental protection are there nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #83

"Truth is, those multinationals could go to Africa," bvar22 Apr 2015 #20

I'm really surprised that Democrats support Foreign Corporations undermining our Environmental laws. sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #22

The problem is that the profits earned from the trade that these trade agreements JDPriestly Apr 2015 #44

Profits related to a foreign corporation operations here, are taxed here. Hoyt Apr 2015 #50

In most cases they are not taxed here. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #82

I think those are domestic corporations who take that approach to avoid some taxes. Hoyt Apr 2015 #85

As an aside. Did you see this? JDPriestly Apr 2015 #87

There seems to be only one cheerleader in this thread - perhaps Hoyt could answer. erronis Apr 2015 #53

There are actually a number of people here wanting to wait until Obama Hoyt Apr 2015 #95

BOGUS. bvar22 Apr 2015 #207

And young folks will be paying for the next group of retirees. Hoyt Apr 2015 #212

Yeah....kicked the can down the road until 2037. bvar22 Apr 2015 #215

No I am not against Social Security, just people who think today's worker Hoyt Apr 2015 #216

Well, TPP certainly won't help small farmers in Japan Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #84

Bullshit. It is not WE who are grabbing wealth, it is the 1%. The corporations. NOT American djean111 Apr 2015 #90

I doubt that any Democrats are as bad as you portray. We've seen parts of this rhett o rick Apr 2015 #97

Truth is bad trade agreements have degraded the American Workforce Joe Turner Apr 2015 #98

Sure, there's something to that Babel_17 Apr 2015 #99

So what makes you think this is going to be any better for foreign countries than it is for us? jwirr Apr 2015 #133

It's like the folly of the Vietnam War Mnpaul Apr 2015 #230

Exactly. I am old enough to remember a time when it was sometimes different. Under FDR our jwirr Apr 2015 #231

I too remember the days Mnpaul Apr 2015 #234

I agree. I see it in the younger ones in my family. They know we are in trouble but do not jwirr Apr 2015 #236

I fear Mnpaul Apr 2015 #239

Yes, a good example is the number of young families that just accept that they will not have jwirr Apr 2015 #241

Another position that you're on the wrong side of. Why does that not surprise me? X_Digger Apr 2015 #134

BALONEY. THE TPP IS SUPER SECRET, IS BEING PUSHED HARD TO BE "FAST TRACKED"...WHY? drynberg Apr 2015 #162

OK, I hear you, but... PatrickforO Apr 2015 #163

You are a true "free" trade believer. Ronny Raygun and Milton thank you fasttense Apr 2015 #169

What is there "good" in this treaty? lark Apr 2015 #179

Horsepucky 99Forever Apr 2015 #206

If only the wealth the U.S. was "grabbing" were spread among its citizens. maddiemom Apr 2015 #221

I'm surprised, myself MFrohike Apr 2015 #247

No, it won't. Who else are you going to vote for? jeff47 Apr 2015 #3

Yep... Gonna Be A REAL Interesting Vote... And THAT... Won't Go Unnoticed... WillyT Apr 2015 #6

I thought the same about CAFTA, bvar22 Apr 2015 #36

And that is how the game is played zeemike Apr 2015 #67

Yeah, wasn't CAFTA great Mnpaul Apr 2015 #235

I remember that game. Remember it well. Autumn Apr 2015 #237

Agree. This will be be dumped on the shoulders of every DEM. 2016 is at stake. misterhighwasted Apr 2015 #10

http://www.thecommentator.com/system/articles/inner_pictures/000/005/415/original/obama-laughing.jpg blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #11

Call your Senators, Representatives and Whitehouse to express your opposition to this global Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #16

+100 Duppers Apr 2015 #28

TPP is great for Plutocracy... Octafish Apr 2015 #18

"and the poor will become the super-majority." bullsnarfle Apr 2015 #223

Politicians think they can do this kind of thing ... ananda Apr 2015 #23

Some of us in independnet media try nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #26

Thank you for your efforts. ananda Apr 2015 #40

x10000000 truebrit71 Apr 2015 #186

Such high drama. It's not a disaster. Gman Apr 2015 #25

True and if NAFTA was such a "disaster" treestar Apr 2015 #158

NAFTA was a disaster Mnpaul Apr 2015 #232

It is no surprise that Obama is pushing this n2doc Apr 2015 #29

I want to try to be respectful of "Hoyt" here, BUT . . FairWinds Apr 2015 #30

Some people will defend ANYTHING, regardless of how heinous, if their hero supports it. Maedhros Apr 2015 #41

well if the Dems don't lose regularly they can't blame the voters MisterP Apr 2015 #32

We don't have to choose between trade and no trade. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #38

You are absolutely correct. Thanks. Faryn Balyncd Apr 2015 #51

Thanks for that reminder! Babel_17 Apr 2015 #103

and our Constitution delegates that task to Congress Mnpaul Apr 2015 #238

Bill gave us NAFTA, Hillary will give us TPP 99th_Monkey Apr 2015 #46

How, specifically, do you think TPP will destroy American workers? randome Apr 2015 #55

It will apparently destroy a lot of Japanese agriculture, Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #73

There's not really any small agricultural producers left in the US. jeff47 Apr 2015 #118

That's a shame Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #119

In my area in northern California that is not true dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #151

Most Japanese produce farmers grow food in the way you describe. Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #153

Interesting dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #155

Yes, I am in Japan Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #244

Cool image search dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #245

I'm in Japan for the long haul Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #261

You're actually agreeing with me. jeff47 Apr 2015 #165

sort of dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #225

Except that sentence wasn't the end of the post. jeff47 Apr 2015 #226

Stunned that you persist on this line dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #227

We have an example, and little reason it wouldn't happen again. jeff47 Apr 2015 #228

Thanks for your response dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #233

Same way NAFTA did. jeff47 Apr 2015 #117

Supposedly, Obama sees the TPP as a rewrite of NAFTA. randome Apr 2015 #164

"Baked in" environmental concerns are worthless... bvar22 Apr 2015 #209

I hope there will be something with teeth in it. randome Apr 2015 #222

As soon as we start putting BIllionaires and Wall Street Bankers who break the law in JAIL, bvar22 Apr 2015 #224

+1 treestar Apr 2015 #157

Kicked! ibewlu606 Apr 2015 #59

Me too but let's be honest. Rightwing ideology and triangularization won. mmonk Apr 2015 #60

...From the man who promised to 'renegotiate NAFTA'... AzDar Apr 2015 #65

He told us that Mnpaul Apr 2015 #240

" And poverty will be as endemic as the worst 3rd world nations today." dgibby Apr 2015 #66

You Can't Dress This Trade Deal On Steroids Up colsohlibgal Apr 2015 #75

This is terrible sadoldgirl Apr 2015 #91

Stop the passage of TTP! democrank Apr 2015 #108

+100 840high Apr 2015 #128

I'm disgusted. blackspade Apr 2015 #131

The party is definitely going to take the blame. Cannot see how any Democrat can not realize jwirr Apr 2015 #132

and the Republicans are handing them the fail Mnpaul Apr 2015 #242

You get what you vote for. DeSwiss Apr 2015 #146

+1 Truth cuts like a knife nationalize the fed Apr 2015 #154

Nightmare. Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2015 #152

For the life of me I can't figure out Obama on this one. Vinca Apr 2015 #156

I can. this is a multigenerational project nadinbrzezinski Apr 2015 #181

Buddy can you spare a dime? Dem_in_Nebr. Apr 2015 #160

It sure will. That's why we must oppose it tooth and nail. PatrickforO Apr 2015 #161

Posters please stop trying to defend the indefensible. I believe NONE of it. I question GoneFishin Apr 2015 #166

By a margin of two to one . . FairWinds Apr 2015 #168

How can you possibly be pro Labor and pro TPP? liberal_at_heart Apr 2015 #182

I think many are over-reacting to this. DCBob Apr 2015 #183

And a small minority here are either being overly naive or Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #208

I tend to have a more global than nationalistic perspective. DCBob Apr 2015 #243

No. Read further before you set your hair on fire. rury Apr 2015 #184

Don't be fooled by the propagandists. TPP will be a fucking disaster for working folks. GoneFishin Apr 2015 #188

Democrats actually defending secret trade agreements.. raindaddy Apr 2015 #191

A disaster for politicians... americannightmare Apr 2015 #192

Once again, it is worth repeating that . . FairWinds Apr 2015 #199

But it will be awesome for Republicans masquerading as Dems in the Third Way! LondonReign2 Apr 2015 #210

Ask Elizabeth Warren what she thinks of the TPP INdemo Apr 2015 #211

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Apr 2015 #219

I was teaching a summer class of teenagers with various learning disabilities when NAFTA maddiemom Apr 2015 #220

Have you read it? ucrdem Apr 2015 #229