General Discussion

pampango

(24,692 posts)

20. If we could have kept Coolidge and Hoover in power perhaps we would be doing that.

Sat Apr 25, 2015, 05:09 PM

Apr 2015

They raised tariffs and cut trade so that the US relied on no other country for food or manufactured goods. Of course, income inequality was even worse then than it is now.

For better or worse Hoover was succeeded by FDR who lowered tariffs, increased trade and then set up international organizations that liberalized trade permanently. FDR, back in the day, and European countries today show that good paying jobs and a strong middle class have a lot more to do with strong safety nets, progressive taxes to fund them, strong union with popular and legal support, etc.

FDR's America traded more than Hoover's, just as Europe trades more than the modern US. I suppose one could imagine a progressive country with a strong middle class and little trade but neither historical nor modern examples are very plentiful. FDR apparently did not think that was the way to go.

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The really question about TPP is; "Do we need to sell our stuff to the 5 Billion in the Pacific rim" [View all] CK_John Apr 2015 OP

We are one of the few countries that COULD make and grow EVERYTHING we need. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #1

Could, should, and would don't mean squat unless we actually do. CK_John Apr 2015 #3

No argument here. I'm a strong supporter of those who lean that way. Hillary ain't one of 'em. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #6

If we could have kept Coolidge and Hoover in power perhaps we would be doing that. pampango Apr 2015 #20

Where did we go wrong? Why are our wages falling to meet poor nations' wages? NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #27

We stopped supporting our workers. Taft-Hartley was a self-inflicted wound to labor. pampango Apr 2015 #32

Wow, mark the date Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #70

Thanks ... I think. pampango Apr 2015 #81

It's not odd that Europe learned lessons from FDR and Truman. It's odd we pretend we did not. merrily Apr 2015 #77

Good point. It is "odd" about it is that FDR's own country has forgotten those lessons while pampango Apr 2015 #82

Oh, I don't think any politician, historian or economist forgot. merrily Apr 2015 #83

I'm sure you are right. Politicians and economists have not "forgotten". "Chosen to ignore" pampango Apr 2015 #86

Yes. One odd thing I've noticed on this politics board is the instinct merrily Apr 2015 #88

I'm not sure about that. Most of us would admit that FDR screwed up at times. No excuses. pampango Apr 2015 #91

Not really the same thing. FDR has been dead a long time. My references were to what is happening merrily Apr 2015 #94

Globalization. former9thward Apr 2015 #38

"Level" Sink even further in the US. Union busting. merrily Apr 2015 #79

Because it's getting harder for the first world to exploit the third (and ex-second). Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #85

Absolutely, and good on you for pointing it out. n/t whathehell Apr 2015 #78

can this country survive trade under tpp Romeo.lima333 Apr 2015 #2

The past is gone and done, it just doesn't matter anymore. The world is as it is now. CK_John Apr 2015 #5

In the US Aerows Apr 2015 #23

Look at California with 6-9mo water supply that is the new world order. CK_John Apr 2015 #29

I live in the very wet part of the US Aerows Apr 2015 #31

You gonna import water from China??? ret5hd Apr 2015 #54

The past does matter. We still have NAFTA and Korea and they are still affecting us. merrily Apr 2015 #84

Simple answer FBaggins Apr 2015 #55

Yet real wages for the 99% have not increased in decades. merrily Apr 2015 #87

That isn't really true either FBaggins Apr 2015 #98

Your own graph is headed "Little Change in Purchasing Power." merrily Apr 2015 #101

That's because they're looking at a 40-50 year period FBaggins Apr 2015 #102

Exactly: Little change over a 40 to 50 year period. merrily Apr 2015 #103

So context doesn't matter? FBaggins Apr 2015 #104

Huh? The increase in purchasing power you are referring to was miniscule. It's hardly merrily Apr 2015 #105

Sorry... that's not true either FBaggins Apr 2015 #106

An absolutely true post of mine (#87) is not relevant to the conversation (about trade) merrily Apr 2015 #107

Sigh.... sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt. FBaggins Apr 2015 #112

Sit on your personal unprovoked insults and unwarranted condescension. merrily Apr 2015 #113

It is the neoliberal position that the 99% are far too well off and must be brought down TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #99

Yep. Neoliberal politicians and their defenders are something else. merrily Apr 2015 #108

what stuff would "we" sell them? notadmblnd Apr 2015 #4

Not enough. CK_John Apr 2015 #7

Maybe body organs. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #8

Ask Germany. They pay their workers more and export almost as much as the US with pampango Apr 2015 #24

They pay almost nothing for a military. former9thward Apr 2015 #39

Agreed. But they still pay their workers more than we do and are tremendous exporters. pampango Apr 2015 #41

Aircraft, heavy equipment, medical equipment FBaggins Apr 2015 #57

As far as aircraft Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #72

Not really FBaggins Apr 2015 #76

Gluten free anything Renew Deal Apr 2015 #89

So we give total corporate control over our laws and regulations Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #9

Maybe is just an excuse to do nothing. Face the facts they don't need our stuff CK_John Apr 2015 #13

They use currency manipulation, VATs, import consumption taxes and other Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #16

you really, really sound republican Skittles Apr 2015 #45

Libertarians, Republicans, neoliberals. merrily Apr 2015 #109

not 5 billion. we already do sell our stuff to the tpp nations cali Apr 2015 #10

OP is a true believer. He loves him some TPP and corporate rule. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #12

that's fine with me. his making shit up, is not cali Apr 2015 #25

Example, How many cars do we sell in Japan? Hardly any. CK_John Apr 2015 #15

And TPP won't fix that. (nm) Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #18

but not because we can't. for one thing they aren't a huge market cali Apr 2015 #21

Remember when Obama said he was "against" Citizens United??? blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #11

That's a big Strawman there Joe Turner Apr 2015 #14

Big bad corporate bogeyman, has been around since Ben Franklin brought Louisiana. CK_John Apr 2015 #17

yeah, nothing about corporations has changed since then cali Apr 2015 #28

Your point being? Joe Turner Apr 2015 #40

When Ben Franklin bought Louisiana? Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #75

There's no TPP right now but we're still trading with these countries. n/t PoliticAverse Apr 2015 #19

You mean "our stuff" that was manufactured in China? n/t Binkie The Clown Apr 2015 #22

As I posted above Aerows Apr 2015 #26

Do I want to be scaled as a laborer with a person in China ? orpupilofnature57 Apr 2015 #30

Yep Aerows Apr 2015 #33

Bingo !!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Apr 2015 #93

I don't think trading among ourselves is going to be good enough for most folks. Hoyt Apr 2015 #34

And when you buy junk Aerows Apr 2015 #35

Assuming that actually happens, you can still sue the manufacturer, the importer, the guy who sold Hoyt Apr 2015 #37

Have you read the TPP Aerows Apr 2015 #42

Whew, you have misinterpreted it badly. That has to do with a corporation like BMW Hoyt Apr 2015 #48

So you have read the TPP as it stands currently? Aerows Apr 2015 #52

Enough of it is available and it's similar to language in roughly 2500 trade Hoyt Apr 2015 #65

Because Aerows Apr 2015 #66

The op is virtually all nonsense cali Apr 2015 #36

Which they want to loosen restrictions Aerows Apr 2015 #43

It's impossible to respond to something that wrong. Hoyt Apr 2015 #49

It's also impossible to respond with authority Aerows Apr 2015 #53

Non sequitur argument Joe Turner Apr 2015 #47

To those, who set Germany as an example, sadoldgirl Apr 2015 #44

Germany has lower tariffs than the US. Imports are 40% of their economy. 14% of the U.S.' pampango Apr 2015 #62

I'm sorry, but the argument is garbage on its face. It's a lie meant to distract and deceive. Xithras Apr 2015 #46

So can we do without exports or not, you cannot change the question and CK_John Apr 2015 #50

We already have trade with them. The question is pointless and distracting. Xithras Apr 2015 #63

BS argument. The poster answered your question Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #69

If the cost of those exports is TPP and other FTAs... Chan790 Apr 2015 #110

If that's the question you come away from the TPP with..... daleanime Apr 2015 #51

I'm not buying into the false notion that TPP is a front for everything that CK_John Apr 2015 #56

Who talking about the last 30 years? daleanime Apr 2015 #59

TPP does not deal with trade directly. I deals with profits for corporations. jwirr Apr 2015 #58

It's a hypothetical question. Since NAFTA we barely manufacture anything in this country. GoneFishin Apr 2015 #60

That's simply not true FBaggins Apr 2015 #61

You are splitting hairs to obfuscate the point that jobs are what put money in the pockets GoneFishin Apr 2015 #95

No hairs were split... you were just wrong FBaggins Apr 2015 #97

"...the problem is jobs...". No shit. Keeping repeating my point for me. I don't care about exports GoneFishin Apr 2015 #100

The real question is whether the TPP partners can afford to meaningfully by our stuff HereSince1628 Apr 2015 #64

So then since there currently is no such agreement in force, I guess we are already in chaos? DebJ Apr 2015 #67

Oh come on! False dilemma/strawman question IMO Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #68

All the countries involved already trade with each other n/t Violet_Crumble Apr 2015 #71

Rubbish. GeorgeGist Apr 2015 #73

The real question is what in goddam bloody hell does TPP have to do with trade eridani Apr 2015 #74

I lulz'ed. KG Apr 2015 #80

thanks for explaining it to us Enrique Apr 2015 #90

the real question about Obamacare is, do we want to have hospitals? Enrique Apr 2015 #92

Bull. 99Forever Apr 2015 #96

What do you think we still make here that they want to buy. onecaliberal Apr 2015 #111