General Discussion

still_one

(98,883 posts)

56. and I am addressing the OPs premise that not everyone is pro TPP because they are picking "sides"

Sat Apr 25, 2015, 09:49 PM

Apr 2015

of someone they support rather than the content of the final agreement

As to your point I am not sure if people are trying to "sell" the approach that they are waiting to see the final document before weighing in. As I see it there are two major camps on DU regarding the TPP. Those that are against the TPP because it doesn't include safe guards, or address the employment and other concerns, and those that believe the final document will because they believe in the assurances of the executive branch that it will. However, there is a third group who are truly undecided, and want to wait for the final agreement which will be made public before the debate or vote before deciding. I do not see this third category trying to convince one side or another what to believe

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The barnstorming charge here rushing to defend the deplorable TPP [View all] WilliamPitt Apr 2015 OP

If people are viewing the agreement on the basis of "which side supports it", and I am sure some are still_one Apr 2015 #1

Stop being sane and rational on DU:GD. JaneyVee Apr 2015 #6

You are right still_one Apr 2015 #45

I don't have a problem with those that choose to "wait and see" how much damage is done rhett o rick Apr 2015 #15

I believe Thespian2 Apr 2015 #25

and I am addressing the OPs premise that not everyone is pro TPP because they are picking "sides" still_one Apr 2015 #56

I would define the three groups differently. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #74

* ronnie624 Apr 2015 #103

May I parse a bit? Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #106

Good point. Some people secretly belive in trickle-down. What's good for corps is good for us. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #155

Thanks for tossing me into #2 and #3. sheshe2 Apr 2015 #174

Whoah!! Take a step back. Re-read the flow of the discussion. I think you're going off half-cocked Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #184

By the time it is made public it will be a done deal. blackspade Apr 2015 #76

It can be voted up or down, and if it is bad it should be voted down still_one Apr 2015 #77

If it is bad it should be voted down.....but it won't. blackspade Apr 2015 #82

I don't know about that. There are tea party members who are not for it, and there are still_one Apr 2015 #83

since the republicans all love it, and are in a huge majority, it won't be. yours may be the Doctor_J Apr 2015 #95

Perhaps, but I believe there are enough Democrats, and some republicans in Congress to stop the TPA still_one Apr 2015 #130

Kind of lends credence to the idea that the administration wanted a Republican Congress. /nt Marr Apr 2015 #177

If you've been paying attention, bvar22 Apr 2015 #140

1000+ 2banon Apr 2015 #87

Not even then, my friend Demeter Apr 2015 #123

Agreed. I'll refrain from losing my shit until I actually get to read why I should be losing my msanthrope Apr 2015 #88

We won't see TPP until TPA is passed shawn703 Apr 2015 #89

What you are saying is that the TPP won't require 2/3 of the Senate? still_one Apr 2015 #129

CAFTA-DR only needed 54 shawn703 Apr 2015 #132

I don't know, I thought treaties required 2/3 vote. I guess I need to re-examine still_one Apr 2015 #133

Treaties, yes. Not Congressional/Executive agreements. N/T shawn703 Apr 2015 #134

Thanks for the information. I wonder if it can be delayed until 2016 when a new Congress comes in? still_one Apr 2015 #136

Corporatists in both parties support it. appal_jack Apr 2015 #98

And you guys might as well be tbaggers on this issue. Hoyt Apr 2015 #104

If it takes the support of tbaggers on this issue then so be it Joe Turner Apr 2015 #127

You are the guys using the retort that TPP must be bad if Republicans are for it. Hoyt Apr 2015 #141

No you are grasping at straws Joe Turner Apr 2015 #144

+1 You nailed it. Enthusiast Apr 2015 #115

and then Democrats can object powerlessly as the TeaPubliKlans shove it through. TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #124

Yup. Here's a NAFTA court case for you Will. Children being poisoned in Peru riderinthestorm Apr 2015 #2

Aren't these threats aspirant Apr 2015 #32

If not extortion, pretty damn close. The NAFTA cases foreshadow TPP's abuses riderinthestorm Apr 2015 #37

Obama is history. Let's look ahead. Hillary Clinton loves the TPP and Fracking. Are you Ready? NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #3

Fracking is central to the US energy independent roadmap. joshcryer Apr 2015 #5

Doesn't make it the road map we should use, then. Octafish Apr 2015 #7

I agree. joshcryer Apr 2015 #21

None of those work as transportation fuel, though TransitJohn Apr 2015 #122

That is why we should be pushing electric car infrastructure dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #150

So we can burn more coal? TransitJohn Apr 2015 #151

You replied to Octafish that wind, solar, hydro aren't fuel for transportation dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #153

A miniscule amount of the power for EVs. TransitJohn Apr 2015 #154

No the grid powers Priuses dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #157

Coal powers the grid. TransitJohn Apr 2015 #158

For my grid power I can now choose geothermal dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #180

That sort of geothermal will be great at covering steady state grid power demand, but TransitJohn Apr 2015 #181

She went to bat for Chevron in Bulgaria and Romania. WTF? NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #9

+1 And don't forget conservation in the mean time. jwirr Apr 2015 #22

Batteries need an enormous buildout. joshcryer Apr 2015 #28

Indeed, batteries for vehicles alone are going to take a great deal of time. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #34

I did not say it was long term. joshcryer Apr 2015 #39

I agree. Smaller peakers are the trend and part of the solution, short term. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #49

I don't have a problem with it. joshcryer Apr 2015 #93

We don't disagree except on your math. Mixing an annual generation figure with battery capacity??? NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #97

Oops, I'm an idiot. joshcryer Apr 2015 #99

Please help us in our effort to prevent expansion of the use of natural gas, as has been promoted... NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #100

This is what bothers me: joshcryer Apr 2015 #102

...just like poison is central to chemical corporations. L0oniX Apr 2015 #118

No, President Obama is not "history".. even though some would like to think that. He's very much Cha Apr 2015 #108

Not sure how people here can support it since they haven't read it. joshcryer Apr 2015 #4

Yes Andy823 Apr 2015 #38

We've been burned before. joshcryer Apr 2015 #52

Just the fact that, in a representative democracy, the people are not being allowed to read it stranger81 Apr 2015 #81

Exactly, Andy.. and what's so "disgraceful" is The "Fingerwagger" who gets so "nasty" accusing Cha Apr 2015 #110

People have read the chapters that are leaked. And I trust MSF, Warren, Sanders etc riderinthestorm Apr 2015 #46

And how would it be stopped? jeff47 Apr 2015 #137

Phone calls, emails, and letters. joshcryer Apr 2015 #182

Yeah, forcing them to take 7-figure jobs in the private sector will show them!! jeff47 Apr 2015 #200

I understand the feelings, sometimes it takes time, it's not easy to hear others AuntPatsy Apr 2015 #8

NAFTA tells me all I need to know about these onecaliberal Apr 2015 #10

Paul Ryan budget slasher, Mitch, CoC & others on the right working for TPP says mucho- appalachiablue Apr 2015 #13

Agree. If republicans and chamber are for it, onecaliberal Apr 2015 #16

Compassionate conservatism, nah esp. these days- appalachiablue Apr 2015 #31

That seems to be the entire "pro" argument Doctor_J Apr 2015 #11

Well said Dr. nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #17

+1 leftstreet Apr 2015 #23

And somewhere here on DU is a list of corporations who have had input to it. That is not comforting jwirr Apr 2015 #26

"he loves me and would never do anything to hurt me" and I'll stand in front of a bus so he may live cherokeeprogressive Apr 2015 #54

I read that post in total 840high Apr 2015 #61

Sometimes I believe there is a significant number of people here who would trade their lives for cherokeeprogressive Apr 2015 #65

Interesting ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #91

Same here MissDeeds Apr 2015 #69

creepy to the extreme Doctor_J Apr 2015 #90

They see him as a paternalistic father figure LittleBlue Apr 2015 #72

Bingo. blackspade Apr 2015 #80

People Just Want to Belong Roy Rolling Apr 2015 #12

Excellent observation Joe Turner Apr 2015 #128

I don't look at the Democratic base in the same way that you seem to. pampango Apr 2015 #14

I would like to know where their commitment to issues betterdemsonly Apr 2015 #70

As a union member I am against sadoldgirl Apr 2015 #18

I could not have said it better. (nt) paleotn Apr 2015 #19

they have been embarrassing DU for a long time Skittles Apr 2015 #20

How can you be against the TPP Eko Apr 2015 #24

Read this. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #36

There you go, Eko Apr 2015 #42

Many do...or at least what they're allowed to know.... paleotn Apr 2015 #55

So you make a decision that something is bad Eko Apr 2015 #59

No...did you actually read and comprehend my post? paleotn Apr 2015 #62

yes, Eko Apr 2015 #189

actually, Eko Apr 2015 #193

I do know what was in the last three. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #68

We do have the leaked chapters that are bad enough riderinthestorm Apr 2015 #47

Yes I read them. Eko Apr 2015 #57

and if found to be unacceptable then what? Sign a petition, wring your hands, or pretend it is great TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #126

I can think if a few other actions. Eko Apr 2015 #162

What is calling your Congressman going to do. Odds are if they are a Democrat they are against it TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #166

Because there are only Eko Apr 2015 #191

You insist on ignoring that the 60 days means NOTHING. We cannot stop passage TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #201

The environmental, intellectual property rights and investment draft chapters cali Apr 2015 #66

But about 95% (maybe more) of the critics on DU know absolutely NOTHING about the TPP. George II Apr 2015 #27

And most of us trust Sherrod Brown, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Barbara Lee, and the rest Doctor_J Apr 2015 #29

Many Dems on the hill have read a significant part of what's in TPP..... paleotn Apr 2015 #44

The attacks on Elizabeth Warren vis a vis the TPP are also deplorable. AtomicKitten Apr 2015 #30

I'm sure it corresponds to a spike in "grass roots organizing" expenditures at the DNC/RNC. n/t lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #33

And yet the party that is not the same is supporting it as well. cui bono Apr 2015 #35

Interesting Andy823 Apr 2015 #40

Someone said there are 2 main kinds of people interested in politics... doxyluv13 Apr 2015 #41

So damn true +1 n/t whatchamacallit Apr 2015 #53

And on the other hand ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #43

Good point. ucrdem Apr 2015 #51

Bullshit. If the process were open and transparent, Obama's support or not would be secondary cherokeeprogressive Apr 2015 #58

The process for negotiating ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #67

Hell ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #92

As recently as Bush negotiations were more open and transparent than under Obama. pa28 Apr 2015 #172

And what other drafts of trade agreements ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #173

You said the process has never been "open and transparent". pa28 Apr 2015 #175

It hasn't been. NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #179

Didn't see much resistance to his Iran treaty? betterdemsonly Apr 2015 #71

Straw man. hay rick Apr 2015 #75

Nope. It's a disaster because McConnell, Ryan and corporate negotiators support it. eridani Apr 2015 #109

Basing one's opinion on what Republicans think ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #168

When have Republicans pushed legislation benefitting the 99%? eridani Apr 2015 #183

"TPP is intended to help corporations fuck over ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #188

From Ellen Brown on Investor-State Dispute Settlement eridani Apr 2015 #192

I asked if ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #194

You don't need to read it if you know how all the other "trade" agreements have eridani Apr 2015 #196

"You don't need to read it ..." NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #198

Give me just ONE thing that has benefited the 99% from past agreements-- eridani Apr 2015 #203

Well, if there is no rational reason to expect ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #204

Either you think that corporations have the right to override governments or you don't eridani Apr 2015 #207

For someone who has stated ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #208

You don't have to read it to know that there will be an investors' rights tribunal eridani Apr 2015 #209

An investors' rights tribunal ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #211

There is no reason whatsoever for them to exist eridani Apr 2015 #212

Let's review, shall we? NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #213

If you know nothing about all the lousy trade deals since NAFTA-- eridani Apr 2015 #214

We're done. NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #215

I essentially asked you this same question last week. DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2015 #205

Apologies, but ... NanceGreggs Apr 2015 #206

Got to the first (full) paragraph before. .. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #48

Nailed it in one Egnever Apr 2015 #84

Funny ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #86

Probably shouldn't waste your time. I'm sure your toenails need trimming or you can find Number23 Apr 2015 #94

it's not about the TPP JI7 Apr 2015 #96

Where did the Op go???? sheshe2 Apr 2015 #178

Just because more than one person disagrees with you doesn't make it barnstorming. nt Hekate Apr 2015 #50

SOS - Circle the wagons and extol the "misunderstood virtues" of another dog shit corporate giveaway whatchamacallit Apr 2015 #60

So am I. 840high Apr 2015 #63

i am not seeing necessarily support of tpp, rather calling out the misinformation from those against seabeyond Apr 2015 #64

I stopped having much faith Barack Obama... 99Forever Apr 2015 #73

amen ibegurpard Apr 2015 #78

Hmm, my car engine is making a funny noise. Should I be worried? Binkie The Clown Apr 2015 #79

since the supporters also approved of the president signing last year's budget, they could be Doctor_J Apr 2015 #85

"the Paul Ryan wing of the democratic party" SMC22307 Apr 2015 #164

Yep, lots of Britney Spears people here. PeteSelman Apr 2015 #101

We should just trust Ron Hubbard! Helen Borg Apr 2015 #156

What's disgraceful? babylonsister Apr 2015 #105

So, why do you call it "deplorable"? jazzimov Apr 2015 #107

I've seen very few here say they can't wait for some of that TPP! Rex Apr 2015 #111

'I tell you 1 and 1 make 3...' KG Apr 2015 #112

Seems to me there are two types of TPP supporters here on DU: Those who ... Scuba Apr 2015 #113

Really? Andy823 Apr 2015 #120

By "anti-everything" "opposers" I suppose you mean these guys .... Scuba Apr 2015 #121

Only if they post on DU Andy823 Apr 2015 #143

I'm not aware of any such "crowd". Scuba Apr 2015 #145

I'm Australian and I'm opposed to the TPP not coz of anything I've read on DU... Violet_Crumble Apr 2015 #199

i do not support tpp. yet those that be like to throw me in the camp. i think you will find another seabeyond Apr 2015 #148

What would it take to convince you it was good or bad? Here's the polll you requested..... Scuba Apr 2015 #161

there you go. i had already voted, opposed. i do not think anything will convince me it is good. seabeyond Apr 2015 #163

seems to me though, per that poll, it does not have the supporters that OP after OP seabeyond Apr 2015 #165

K&R! I'm with you, WilliamPitt! Enthusiast Apr 2015 #114

This chilling thought just occurred to me 90-percent Apr 2015 #116

When corporations are picking the candidates for a Skidmore Apr 2015 #119

Bah ah ah ah aaah L0oniX Apr 2015 #117

k/r. Truth. marmar Apr 2015 #125

I support both Obama and the TPP, and not the TPP because of Obama Yorktown Apr 2015 #131

Hey, I was against it before it was hip. malthaussen Apr 2015 #135

It's not people saying it that make parties "the same." DirkGently Apr 2015 #138

Great post! PowerToThePeople Apr 2015 #149

+1 dreamnightwind Apr 2015 #152

Some one doesn't know what barnstorming means. JoePhilly Apr 2015 #139

Someone doesn't know how to craft the word "someone" WilliamPitt Apr 2015 #146

. Rex Apr 2015 #170

Dang, WilliamPitt, I think you have become a brand. ( as a side note I agree ) nt Snotcicles Apr 2015 #142

TPP = Citizens United blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #147

Didn't you write a similar bashing of the Prez last April on ACA, albeit with very vile language? Hoyt Apr 2015 #159

If It Isn't Bad For Most Of Us Why Can't We See It? colsohlibgal Apr 2015 #160

Barn storming for the pigs at the trough whereisjustice Apr 2015 #167

I've been away since Friday. Then I come across this. mmonk Apr 2015 #169

I call that kind of argument "sophistry" Jack Rabbit Apr 2015 #171

When Bush tried this in 2007 they were all against it. So you're right. I was against it then sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #187

I remember when they were still saying it was some kind of conspiracy theory. Marr Apr 2015 #176

Life is easier if you just ignore that type of white noise, unless you are a sadist. Rex Apr 2015 #185

They're just trying to cut off debate by discrediting the opposition out of hand Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #186

It's not all most Democrats want to know. There is overwhelming opposition to this sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #190

Oh, please. lovemydog Apr 2015 #195

This isn't anything new JonLP24 Apr 2015 #197

Now, now, your leaders always know what's best for Zorra Apr 2015 #202

I'm stealing this ... sendero Apr 2015 #210