General Discussion

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)

68. Oh come on! False dilemma/strawman question IMO

Sun Apr 26, 2015, 02:30 AM

Apr 2015

First of all, It's not about trade vs no trade.

Second, if an agreement that allows more exports open the floodgates for exponentially yet more imports; then yes; we don't need those "exports". If you lose on every transaction, it's an absolute fool's errand to think one will make up for this in sheer volume. Keep in mind; The makers of said agreements ( or certainly an ardent member of its many architects ) are those that set up shop abroad to produce ( to seek economic rents ) products to export here for the US to import.

Speaking with brutal frankness; I can't believe at this stage, with the knowledge of history of past trade agreement's effects so well known; somebody would advance the same policy with the same lame platitudes that were stale 20 years ago.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

113 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

The really question about TPP is; "Do we need to sell our stuff to the 5 Billion in the Pacific rim" [View all] CK_John Apr 2015 OP

We are one of the few countries that COULD make and grow EVERYTHING we need. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #1

Could, should, and would don't mean squat unless we actually do. CK_John Apr 2015 #3

No argument here. I'm a strong supporter of those who lean that way. Hillary ain't one of 'em. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #6

If we could have kept Coolidge and Hoover in power perhaps we would be doing that. pampango Apr 2015 #20

Where did we go wrong? Why are our wages falling to meet poor nations' wages? NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #27

We stopped supporting our workers. Taft-Hartley was a self-inflicted wound to labor. pampango Apr 2015 #32

Wow, mark the date Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #70

Thanks ... I think. pampango Apr 2015 #81

It's not odd that Europe learned lessons from FDR and Truman. It's odd we pretend we did not. merrily Apr 2015 #77

Good point. It is "odd" about it is that FDR's own country has forgotten those lessons while pampango Apr 2015 #82

Oh, I don't think any politician, historian or economist forgot. merrily Apr 2015 #83

I'm sure you are right. Politicians and economists have not "forgotten". "Chosen to ignore" pampango Apr 2015 #86

Yes. One odd thing I've noticed on this politics board is the instinct merrily Apr 2015 #88

I'm not sure about that. Most of us would admit that FDR screwed up at times. No excuses. pampango Apr 2015 #91

Not really the same thing. FDR has been dead a long time. My references were to what is happening merrily Apr 2015 #94

Globalization. former9thward Apr 2015 #38

"Level" Sink even further in the US. Union busting. merrily Apr 2015 #79

Because it's getting harder for the first world to exploit the third (and ex-second). Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2015 #85

Absolutely, and good on you for pointing it out. n/t whathehell Apr 2015 #78

can this country survive trade under tpp Romeo.lima333 Apr 2015 #2

The past is gone and done, it just doesn't matter anymore. The world is as it is now. CK_John Apr 2015 #5

In the US Aerows Apr 2015 #23

Look at California with 6-9mo water supply that is the new world order. CK_John Apr 2015 #29

I live in the very wet part of the US Aerows Apr 2015 #31

You gonna import water from China??? ret5hd Apr 2015 #54

The past does matter. We still have NAFTA and Korea and they are still affecting us. merrily Apr 2015 #84

Simple answer FBaggins Apr 2015 #55

Yet real wages for the 99% have not increased in decades. merrily Apr 2015 #87

That isn't really true either FBaggins Apr 2015 #98

Your own graph is headed "Little Change in Purchasing Power." merrily Apr 2015 #101

That's because they're looking at a 40-50 year period FBaggins Apr 2015 #102

Exactly: Little change over a 40 to 50 year period. merrily Apr 2015 #103

So context doesn't matter? FBaggins Apr 2015 #104

Huh? The increase in purchasing power you are referring to was miniscule. It's hardly merrily Apr 2015 #105

Sorry... that's not true either FBaggins Apr 2015 #106

An absolutely true post of mine (#87) is not relevant to the conversation (about trade) merrily Apr 2015 #107

Sigh.... sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt. FBaggins Apr 2015 #112

Sit on your personal unprovoked insults and unwarranted condescension. merrily Apr 2015 #113

It is the neoliberal position that the 99% are far too well off and must be brought down TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #99

Yep. Neoliberal politicians and their defenders are something else. merrily Apr 2015 #108

what stuff would "we" sell them? notadmblnd Apr 2015 #4

Not enough. CK_John Apr 2015 #7

Maybe body organs. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #8

Ask Germany. They pay their workers more and export almost as much as the US with pampango Apr 2015 #24

They pay almost nothing for a military. former9thward Apr 2015 #39

Agreed. But they still pay their workers more than we do and are tremendous exporters. pampango Apr 2015 #41

Aircraft, heavy equipment, medical equipment FBaggins Apr 2015 #57

As far as aircraft Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #72

Not really FBaggins Apr 2015 #76

Gluten free anything Renew Deal Apr 2015 #89

So we give total corporate control over our laws and regulations Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #9

Maybe is just an excuse to do nothing. Face the facts they don't need our stuff CK_John Apr 2015 #13

They use currency manipulation, VATs, import consumption taxes and other Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #16

you really, really sound republican Skittles Apr 2015 #45

Libertarians, Republicans, neoliberals. merrily Apr 2015 #109

not 5 billion. we already do sell our stuff to the tpp nations cali Apr 2015 #10

OP is a true believer. He loves him some TPP and corporate rule. Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #12

that's fine with me. his making shit up, is not cali Apr 2015 #25

Example, How many cars do we sell in Japan? Hardly any. CK_John Apr 2015 #15

And TPP won't fix that. (nm) Elwood P Dowd Apr 2015 #18

but not because we can't. for one thing they aren't a huge market cali Apr 2015 #21

Remember when Obama said he was "against" Citizens United??? blkmusclmachine Apr 2015 #11

That's a big Strawman there Joe Turner Apr 2015 #14

Big bad corporate bogeyman, has been around since Ben Franklin brought Louisiana. CK_John Apr 2015 #17

yeah, nothing about corporations has changed since then cali Apr 2015 #28

Your point being? Joe Turner Apr 2015 #40

When Ben Franklin bought Louisiana? Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #75

There's no TPP right now but we're still trading with these countries. n/t PoliticAverse Apr 2015 #19

You mean "our stuff" that was manufactured in China? n/t Binkie The Clown Apr 2015 #22

As I posted above Aerows Apr 2015 #26

Do I want to be scaled as a laborer with a person in China ? orpupilofnature57 Apr 2015 #30

Yep Aerows Apr 2015 #33

Bingo !!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Apr 2015 #93

I don't think trading among ourselves is going to be good enough for most folks. Hoyt Apr 2015 #34

And when you buy junk Aerows Apr 2015 #35

Assuming that actually happens, you can still sue the manufacturer, the importer, the guy who sold Hoyt Apr 2015 #37

Have you read the TPP Aerows Apr 2015 #42

Whew, you have misinterpreted it badly. That has to do with a corporation like BMW Hoyt Apr 2015 #48

So you have read the TPP as it stands currently? Aerows Apr 2015 #52

Enough of it is available and it's similar to language in roughly 2500 trade Hoyt Apr 2015 #65

Because Aerows Apr 2015 #66

The op is virtually all nonsense cali Apr 2015 #36

Which they want to loosen restrictions Aerows Apr 2015 #43

It's impossible to respond to something that wrong. Hoyt Apr 2015 #49

It's also impossible to respond with authority Aerows Apr 2015 #53

Non sequitur argument Joe Turner Apr 2015 #47

To those, who set Germany as an example, sadoldgirl Apr 2015 #44

Germany has lower tariffs than the US. Imports are 40% of their economy. 14% of the U.S.' pampango Apr 2015 #62

I'm sorry, but the argument is garbage on its face. It's a lie meant to distract and deceive. Xithras Apr 2015 #46

So can we do without exports or not, you cannot change the question and CK_John Apr 2015 #50

We already have trade with them. The question is pointless and distracting. Xithras Apr 2015 #63

BS argument. The poster answered your question Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #69

If the cost of those exports is TPP and other FTAs... Chan790 Apr 2015 #110

If that's the question you come away from the TPP with..... daleanime Apr 2015 #51

I'm not buying into the false notion that TPP is a front for everything that CK_John Apr 2015 #56

Who talking about the last 30 years? daleanime Apr 2015 #59

TPP does not deal with trade directly. I deals with profits for corporations. jwirr Apr 2015 #58

It's a hypothetical question. Since NAFTA we barely manufacture anything in this country. GoneFishin Apr 2015 #60

That's simply not true FBaggins Apr 2015 #61

You are splitting hairs to obfuscate the point that jobs are what put money in the pockets GoneFishin Apr 2015 #95

No hairs were split... you were just wrong FBaggins Apr 2015 #97

"...the problem is jobs...". No shit. Keeping repeating my point for me. I don't care about exports GoneFishin Apr 2015 #100

The real question is whether the TPP partners can afford to meaningfully by our stuff HereSince1628 Apr 2015 #64

So then since there currently is no such agreement in force, I guess we are already in chaos? DebJ Apr 2015 #67

Oh come on! False dilemma/strawman question IMO Populist_Prole Apr 2015 #68

All the countries involved already trade with each other n/t Violet_Crumble Apr 2015 #71

Rubbish. GeorgeGist Apr 2015 #73

The real question is what in goddam bloody hell does TPP have to do with trade eridani Apr 2015 #74

I lulz'ed. KG Apr 2015 #80

thanks for explaining it to us Enrique Apr 2015 #90

the real question about Obamacare is, do we want to have hospitals? Enrique Apr 2015 #92

Bull. 99Forever Apr 2015 #96

What do you think we still make here that they want to buy. onecaliberal Apr 2015 #111