General Discussion

DonCoquixote

(13,950 posts)

1. there is the false dilemma we are being fed

Reply to 1StrongBlackMan (Original post)

Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:20 PM

Apr 2015

There are many here who think it is an either or, but the bottom line is, we need BOTH. If you do not have economic justice, and the power that it entails, then there is nothing that cannot be taken away from you. On the other hand, if you have social injustice but economic power, then it is only a matter of time before the majority finds ways to kill you and take your stuff. The rpoblem many on DU have is that while they are arguing about how many angels dance on their favorite head of a pin, people are getting killed.

Social and economic justice are two halves of the same coin, one without the other, is useless, and anyone at DU who claims to have any real intentions needs to address both, and not force minorities to ask which they want.

what makes me angry about DU is that you, or for that matter, I (yo soy Boricua) should ever, ever, ever be forced to ask, or even concieve, or even explain which you want more. The people asking this of us might as well ask if we want lethal injection or hanging. Yes, there are little nuances, but in the end, we do the dying! And just because some of the majority were foolish enough to think that one was needed more than the other (which is why things have gone downhill for everybody to the left of Nixon) does nto mean we should make their mistake.

PS: this reply is not about condeming you for being pissed off and sad, it is more a shout at the people that got you to that point.

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I am, not surprised; but, somewhat dismayed with ... [View all] 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 OP

there is the false dilemma we are being fed DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #1

I competely understand ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #7

+1 cui bono Apr 2015 #112

I think it's quite possible... gregcrawford Apr 2015 #203

+1000-excellent rendering heaven05 Apr 2015 #234

Some are making the distinction between the two because IMO they rhett o rick Apr 2015 #24

Are you kidding me? MaggieD Apr 2015 #47

I did not hear any HRC there DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #50

You missed his normal dog whistles then MaggieD Apr 2015 #55

Yes, some cant do anything but bash Hillary, even without saying her name. NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #57

You have your opinion and I have mine. IMO you can't support both Wall Street rhett o rick Apr 2015 #73

But everytime I ask you for specifics you disappear MaggieD Apr 2015 #74

She started the TPP process and has the nerve ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #88

She started it??? link for that? MaggieD Apr 2015 #89

Just wait a moment ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #92

LOL! Lots of HRC fantasy here these days MaggieD Apr 2015 #93

She "started" it - sort of yes, sort of no; cheerleading for it is clear. Jim Lane Apr 2015 #139

You have one quote that has been edited MaggieD Apr 2015 #146

You could give the unedited quotation, you could give others, but instead you sling mud Jim Lane Apr 2015 #168

Well said. I am getting tired of the meme, "If Warren is polite to Clinton, then she obviously rhett o rick Apr 2015 #207

saying she supports clinton is her merely being polite? and you say you are a warren supporter? seabeyond Apr 2015 #208

She is a good Democrat and will support Clinton. That doesn't mean she agrees with all of Clinton's rhett o rick Apr 2015 #209

no one suggested that was her saying she agreed with ALL her policies. that is not what i addressed seabeyond Apr 2015 #210

Excuse me, it was her boss, a black man, that's pushing TPP lark Apr 2015 #184

Re-read my post ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #196

I'm shocked JustAnotherGen May 2015 #264

I'm even more shocked ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #265

I am always glad to enter honest discussion that are free of rudeness and ridicule. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #111

Perhaps you didn't fully read the article MaggieD Apr 2015 #115

I can always learn more about this issue, but I certain don't think this is necessary: rhett o rick Apr 2015 #124

There are legitmate reasons to be in favor of the TPP MaggieD Apr 2015 #127

I also am a Democrat and fully support those that see the TPP as a disaster for the 99%. rhett o rick Apr 2015 #129

If you understood the issue you would have found them addressed in the link MaggieD Apr 2015 #131

I was hoping we could have a decent discussion. But saying things like this, rhett o rick Apr 2015 #135

Well here is my rule of thumb... MaggieD Apr 2015 #143

Who are you speaking of, in your hijack attempt? 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #86

If you look back you will see that my comment to your OP is that rhett o rick Apr 2015 #125

I've been thinking about that statement ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #142

"what do they lose, if they fail to win the fight?" right on. thank you. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #150

They are getting social justice others are deprived of. It isn't social justice TheKentuckian Apr 2015 #171

Democratic candidate, not democrat candidate. Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #84

You are correct - I edited for accuracy MaggieD Apr 2015 #94

Forgiven Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #104

^^^^^This is the correct answer.^^^^^ woo me with science Apr 2015 #180

^^^^^^That is the wrong answer^^^^^ in my opinion and i have explained why. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #185

you seem desperate! stonecutter357 Apr 2015 #189

I think the people of this country are desperate for a leader that doesn't represent rhett o rick Apr 2015 #192

there's lot of people that have there retirements in Wall Street. stonecutter357 Apr 2015 #221

Absolutely. Those people need a leader that will protect their investments and rhett o rick Apr 2015 #222

$ before lives. abso fuggin' lutely. seabeyond Apr 2015 #223

I support lives before dollars. That's why I support a candidate that isn't rhett o rick Apr 2015 #224

you say you do and immediately follow with $ before lives. amazing. seabeyond Apr 2015 #225

So explain to me what you see as the most pressing problem in America. nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #226

with all due respect DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #202

good post. good reminder. i am going to start opening my ears more. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #205

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #217

^ n/t BlancheSplanchnik Apr 2015 #190

Money and Status HassleCat Apr 2015 #2

LOL ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #9

The Theory HassleCat Apr 2015 #12

Laughing is a great way to mask the sorrow ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #21

Your post made me cry. Control-Z Apr 2015 #175

yes. so often, an experience is told, affects the reader, yet we say nothing. your post hit me, seabeyond Apr 2015 #193

That's so heart-wrenching. The parents of the little elitist bigots Flatulo Apr 2015 #231

Yeah, the people on the street aren't complaining about wealth. joshcryer Apr 2015 #3

"constantly harassed by police." That was closer to the truth when O'Malley was mayor. Vattel Apr 2015 #13

I read somewhere the had fired 50 officers in the last two years. nt okaawhatever Apr 2015 #41

Good point. I agree. leftofcool Apr 2015 #4

I beleive we build a stronger coalition if we see this as both and not one or the other. NYC_SKP Apr 2015 #5

Yep. Two sides of the same coin. hifiguy Apr 2015 #26

like immediately. the life of our young black men and boys, to the $. it is a no duh, for me, too. seabeyond Apr 2015 #6

+1 yuiyoshida Apr 2015 #27

When the lights are on everyone seem to say the right thing Hutzpa Apr 2015 #8

That makes sense el_bryanto Apr 2015 #10

You can't have social justice without economic justice. It's simply not possible cali Apr 2015 #11

I disagree ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #36

So if a black person has money, the police/store owners leave them alone, right? NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #59

Well ... That hasn't been MY experience ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #71

Wait, you mean even if you have money and status, you still get picked on? How about that! NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #72

And how I should respond to it. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #82

You should tell white people to shut the fuck up and listen and learn. NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #108

They will tell me to "watch (my) tone." n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #116

!!!!! BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #121

Or even better, that you have simply "misunderstood" the dog whistles, microaggressions and Number23 Apr 2015 #137

No. They'll tell you that it's not racism. It's classism. They'll tell you to stop overreacting. Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2015 #195

Baltimore's economic inequality is lower than the national average Recursion Apr 2015 #176

You are absolutely correct AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #235

Tell me ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #238

If by 'straight, white, christian, male' you mean right wingers, AKA Republicans/libertarians AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #239

No, I'm asking about ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #240

The fact that there are few if any what? AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #241

I think I understand what you are getting at AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #242

It can be about both. Not just one or the other. pa28 Apr 2015 #14

Social justice and economic justice go hand in hand. Comrade Grumpy Apr 2015 #15

social justice without economic justice means you are free to live in a cardboard box next to yurbud Apr 2015 #16

So what do you do about the fact that the first 'gay right' sought and still not given to us is Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #17

The ERA still isn't law. Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #91

That is a fact. Amazingly, half of LGBT people are women and thus get it double scooped Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #98

Oppression of anyone, as a socioeconomic system, must be ended. Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #106

Beats the hell out of not being allowed to live together at all. stone space Apr 2015 #19

At least you'd have your marriage treestar Apr 2015 #23

Who said they shouldn't? yurbud Apr 2015 #194

the person I responded to must have implied that treestar Apr 2015 #218

I'd really, really like just one of the people who makes this bogus assertion answer me. Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #28

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #39

You could ask it of the wealthy gay couple who recently hosted the Cruz fundraiser Fumesucker Apr 2015 #49

Why would I do that? I'm asking the DUers who make the assertion, not Republicans who are Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #81

It's not a "tough" question ... It is a revealing question. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #97

I try to be kind and pretend it is tough, but the silence in response really is revealing and this Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #109

Yes. It is. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #117

Yes it is. Behind the Aegis Apr 2015 #172

Wow, that sentence says it all. qwlauren35 Apr 2015 #206

social justice in 2016 means you save lives. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #54

When the cops show up the white guy gets yelled at, the black guy gets his ass beat NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #63

I agree. I was trying to put the counterpoint in the starkest yurbud Apr 2015 #187

Interesting ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #200

Why would social justice mean lowering conditions? yurbud Apr 2015 #230

Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #232

my point was not that social justice would LEAD to the cardboard boxes--we're already headed there yurbud Apr 2015 #244

those racial income inequality stats show how the two issues are inextricably linked yurbud Apr 2015 #246

... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #247

They are intertwined. Half-Century Man Apr 2015 #18

But, it is increasingly clear what ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #40

Quite right. Half-Century Man Apr 2015 #45

That's just divisive bullshit. You're better than this sort of crap. Comrade Grumpy Apr 2015 #46

Think about why you consider ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #66

Amen Cali_Democrat Apr 2015 #20

K&R treestar Apr 2015 #22

Economic justice arguments don't need to mention untidy details like racism, sexism, homphobia, etc. Gormy Cuss Apr 2015 #25

and because they do not DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #52

DU is becoming unbearable with the racism around here. Just absolutely ridiculous! Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2015 #29

Becoming LOL ....oy vey...I know, you didnt actually mean that. NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #64

Trying to exercise the last semblance of diplomacy I have left. I hear ya! Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2015 #123

And I would answer that there can be no social justice for Black JDPriestly Apr 2015 #30

Ummm, no ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #42

The basis of slavery was the difference in technological and economic JDPriestly Apr 2015 #61

Come on ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #78

When you qualify it with the prepositional phrase, "in this society," and JDPriestly Apr 2015 #87

I only live in this society and at this time ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #90

Rwanda was not a fantasy. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #102

I don't live in Rwanda ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #118

Ever been to Fresno or Bakersfield? bvar22 Apr 2015 #212

hey... did some growing up in bakersfield. absolutely. lived in fresno first, for a couple years. seabeyond Apr 2015 #214

I have lived in other societies at other times. JDPriestly Apr 2015 #105

Where was this ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #119

we're in america heaven05 Apr 2015 #229

Read history. People find excuses to enslave those who are different JDPriestly May 2015 #267

I understand what you are saying JustAnotherGen May 2015 #268

longwinded BS heaven05 Apr 2015 #228

It is the color of blackness in skin heaven05 Apr 2015 #227

racism is not about the color of ones skin, the kink in ones hair or the flare of ones nostrils. jeepers Apr 2015 #251

Uh...no! Behind the Aegis May 2015 #252

I may have conflated the terms prejudice and racism jeepers May 2015 #254

You did conflate the two. Behind the Aegis May 2015 #255

Here. Let me attempt to make you revised statement more accurate ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #261

white racism is heaven05 May 2015 #259

You cannot have one without the other. Without economic justice, then there is no social justice. 1monster Apr 2015 #31

Well, I'm not surprised that you're using the riots brentspeak Apr 2015 #32

WTF are you talking about? ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #44

Ignore that poster, such garbage. Such FUCKING garbage NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #65

Well ... your response has one of the words I was thinking! n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #80

It's okay... sheshe2 Apr 2015 #159

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #162

Thanks....and sheshe2 Apr 2015 #166

Considering that you work in finance brentspeak Apr 2015 #198

as his daughter is the only one not invited to a bday party cause no blacks in the country club. seabeyond Apr 2015 #201

Wow. bvar22 Apr 2015 #213

Did you even bother to read that "crow"? 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #216

I do not, and have never, worked in Finance ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #215

They aren't mutually exclusive. lovemydog Apr 2015 #75

Exactly correct that the two things aren't mutually exclusive brentspeak Apr 2015 #77

You and I read that post completely differently. n/t lovemydog Apr 2015 #79

Of course I don't ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #99

You are simply wrong. Sorry, but MineralMan Apr 2015 #113

It is a matter of law and policy that we are afforded equal rights. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2015 #33

Divide and conquer. guillaumeb Apr 2015 #34

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #48

Social justice is necessary for economic justice Matrosov Apr 2015 #35

I think you've said it well. procon Apr 2015 #37

I can point to the only circumstance where this debate is not even considered ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #53

I hear you, and after post after post stating how boston bean Apr 2015 #38

I don't see that you can have one without the other wryter2000 Apr 2015 #43

this is the argument. if we do not address the $, we lose and should not work to get a dem in seabeyond Apr 2015 #51

this op did not start off DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #58

we are talking about those advocating not voting 2016 cause of the oligarchy, because the $ proceeds seabeyond Apr 2015 #68

And shockingly ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #100

ok, I will see that DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #170

Oh, I agree. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #179

The divison between economic and social justice is a false one YoungDemCA Apr 2015 #56

The issues are inseparable ... but only for those experiencing assaults on both. 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #70

Well said Starboard Tack Apr 2015 #60

Social justice implies economic justice. raven mad Apr 2015 #62

Woman tells me something is misogynist, I dont argue with her. NoJusticeNoPeace Apr 2015 #67

There can not be real economic justice without social justice gollygee Apr 2015 #69

I think the chances of you getting either economic or social justice are slim... Fumesucker Apr 2015 #76

"Social justice warriors" ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #107

FDR Economic BIll or Rights bvar22 Apr 2015 #83

Hear, hear MaggieD Apr 2015 #96

Okay. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #110

Yes, exactly! TM99 Apr 2015 #133

That sounds like a whole lot of... Oilwellian Apr 2015 #211

+1 lovemydog Apr 2015 #85

I'm not sure how anyone has any kind of labor rights, without first having human rights. Rex Apr 2015 #95

Yep, both are tied to the hip MrScorpio Apr 2015 #101

Yes, social justice is key to economic justice. That's why the economic royalists are so invested Dont call me Shirley Apr 2015 #103

Excellent OP. Money does not buy everything. nt msanthrope Apr 2015 #114

Summed up perfectly BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #120

This here says it all... giftedgirl77 Apr 2015 #128

The media is ignoring the social justice aspect Gothmog Apr 2015 #122

It's amazing how many people know better than you.... steve2470 Apr 2015 #126

Yeah, I'll never walk in those shoes, either. randome Apr 2015 #130

Orioles COO John Angelos seems to disagree. He seems to think economic justice is very rhett o rick Apr 2015 #132

Kicking for that quote... SMC22307 Apr 2015 #136

Said the white guy(?) about the white guy (?) that "knows" the condition of PoC .... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #147

as the quote is circulated, i am thinking the same damn thing. says the white man. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #151

Is this someone who owns a sports team? gollygee Apr 2015 #154

chief operating officer. and ya. gotta figure he has money. with the baltimore orioles. and ya... seabeyond Apr 2015 #156

If you disagree with the statement, then why don't you explain why. nm rhett o rick Apr 2015 #169

I have. several times ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #178

Human rights must come first, they are the foundation for labor rights. Rex Apr 2015 #174

for immediate address and change we are talking the supreme court. not trickle down. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #186

good luck getting BOTH. pansypoo53219 Apr 2015 #134

Can I count you in the number of those willing to help? n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #148

+1000 heaven05 Apr 2015 #138

What's the difference? MFrohike Apr 2015 #140

Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #149

Why would straight white christian men fight for social justice jeepers May 2015 #253

Perhaps, you could rephrase your answer ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #256

why? conscious. integrity. inner since of honesty. shit... seabeyond May 2015 #257

While I respect what you are saying marym625 Apr 2015 #141

I appreciate that; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #152

I think they are too intertwined to separate marym625 Apr 2015 #155

"Permanent" ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #158

You caught me again when I have to run marym625 Apr 2015 #160

Enjoy my friend. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #163

reversing the supreme crt as state laws reach it is far beyond a mere smoke and mirror. seabeyond Apr 2015 #153

Very true marym625 Apr 2015 #157

2016... not enough time to do what you see we need to do. though you are right in all you say, 2016 seabeyond Apr 2015 #164

Nicely said! Adrahil Apr 2015 #144

I would rec this a million times if I could. Every word rings true. n/t freshwest Apr 2015 #145

Some of us see it as the same thing Nevernose Apr 2015 #161

Maybe this question will establish space ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #165

Thank you for your perspective gopiscrap Apr 2015 #167

It is a special blindness some employ. Behind the Aegis Apr 2015 #173

You don't see that they are inextricably entwined? Novara Apr 2015 #177

Yes, inextricably entwined for some; but, not for others ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #182

"How can there BE social justice..." BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #183

As a man, you learned to appreciate fadedrose Apr 2015 #181

my niece wants to be able to get an abortion, when her life is at stake. also. nt seabeyond Apr 2015 #188

She needs a safe abortion fadedrose Apr 2015 #191

Thank you for saying this. qwlauren35 Apr 2015 #197

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #219

I sincerely believe that the whites here at DU know this, but will never Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2015 #220

Social justice is a necessary precursor to economic justice. nt avebury Apr 2015 #199

Indeed, just as Dr. King himself said. riqster Apr 2015 #204

When the founding fathers were fighting against England I am not sure that they were asked to jwirr Apr 2015 #233

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #248

I am saying that they were also fighting for social justice and their rights. Just like black people jwirr Apr 2015 #250

Perhaps a concrete example might help frazzled Apr 2015 #236

here is one on this thread, to the point. his daughter was excluded from a bday party cause at the seabeyond Apr 2015 #237

kick for truth Blue_Tires Apr 2015 #243

What I want to know is how do you distinguish between the two? ananda Apr 2015 #245

I'm guessing one has to live it, aware ... 1StrongBlackMan Apr 2015 #249

here's the thing. i was off doing something. this comes kicking to mind. white people that have the seabeyond May 2015 #258

mommmmmy, mommmmmy. come over here. please come mommy. seabeyond May 2015 #260

we are being told by our fellow democrats. to leave our dead alongside of the road. look the other seabeyond May 2015 #262

The interesting, though again, unsurprising, thing is ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #263

k&r. I assume they aren't comfortable with the racial aspects Liberal_in_LA May 2015 #266