General Discussion

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)

2. This is a general question that Bernie is going to need to answer.

Mon May 4, 2015, 04:13 PM

May 2015

He says things are going down the wrong direction and he wants to make big changes.

Where is the evidence he is capable of leading members of congress into making the votes he needs to make those changes.

He is in a substantial position already as senator. In that capacity, what transformative legislation has he created and how has he done at getting the rest of the senate to vote that way.

If we imagine him elected President, he has one less transformative senator to work with to vote on legislation, himself. Who votes for his bills? This is a particularly important question knowing that the chances are he will be dealing with a Republican senate and Republican house.

What is his track record for getting Republicans to vote Yea on his legislation? If he doesnt have a dramatically good record on that score, he can't be transformative. And if that is so, what is the argument for his candidacy?

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Bernie Sanders wrote the ACA clause that allowed for VT to try single payer, but VT failed to raise [View all] pnwmom May 2015 OP

So that was the fault of Bernie? eloydude May 2015 #1

Yes, if he is claiming he is a leader. If he is claiming he can affect radical changes. stevenleser May 2015 #4

Where is Obama's? cui bono May 2015 #185

No, the Governor didn't "ditch it as soon as he could". The Governor knew he couldn't make it okaawhatever May 2015 #9

The Governor gave up after years of trying to get the tax increases through the legislature. pnwmom May 2015 #14

Really? Who are these people? Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #51

SUPPORT A CANDIDATE DONT TEAR SOMEONE ELSE'S DOWN. Agschmid May 2015 #53

You haven't shown it is flawed. You're trying to avoid the discussion at all. pnwmom May 2015 #57

The whole premise of your argument is flawed... Agschmid May 2015 #58

When you claim that Sanders is SO much more progressive than Obama has been, pnwmom May 2015 #60

Ted Kennedy is dead, Obama is up against term limits... Agschmid May 2015 #63

My candidate will be whoever wins the primary. pnwmom May 2015 #68

Okay let's flip the question, how will Hillary pass progressive legislation in a country... Agschmid May 2015 #69

I asked first but I'll answer anyway. pnwmom May 2015 #73

She's not the one claiming she can. Sanders entire reason for running is based on it. nt stevenleser May 2015 #153

What? What a load... cui bono May 2015 #188

well he did offer the amendment that got the fed audited questionseverything May 2015 #164

You're wildly misinformed about Bernie Sanders JonLP24 May 2015 #96

What ideological purity? Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #129

In 24 years, why hasn't he written more bills? And why do people here lionize him as such pnwmom May 2015 #194

I have no idea why he's written or not written more bills. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #198

What is the reason for Obama's failures? Obama? cui bono May 2015 #187

Come on now. You know that applies only to criticism of Hillary. merrily May 2015 #79

First, I haven't seen anyone saying that. Second, in this case, Sanders Marr May 2015 #116

Saying what? That he tried to get it through for years? And the Governor pnwmom May 2015 #117

Saying that Sanders will 'single handedly wrench the country to the left". Marr May 2015 #119

"You're trying to paint Sanders as an ineffectual idealist, and his supporters as out-of-touch... stevenleser May 2015 #126

He's passed more than Clinton, so what's with the crowing? Marr May 2015 #135

He was in congress three times as long. And yet again evades the question. stevenleser May 2015 #136

Three times zero is zero. Marr May 2015 #143

So there is no reason for a Sanders Presidency. He can't accomplish anything. Thats your answer. nt stevenleser May 2015 #144

Is that the only way you can win an argument? Marr May 2015 #155

What legislation that is good for the country would Republicans support? Bjorn Against May 2015 #145

Then, see my #144. nt stevenleser May 2015 #151

144 does not answer my question at all Bjorn Against May 2015 #163

The Republican Senators won't vote to pass Obama's agenda either Bjorn Against May 2015 #139

Nice ad hominem. Bernie is the one running on a transformative agenda. The onus is on him and his stevenleser May 2015 #141

Are you no longer a Fox News analyst? Bjorn Against May 2015 #148

I've never worked for any television network. I have been a recurring guest on several. stevenleser May 2015 #150

This is a general question that Bernie is going to need to answer. stevenleser May 2015 #2

I'd rather have a very authentic and honest politician who cares about the 99%'ers. eloydude May 2015 #5

Evading the questions I raised won't help. nt stevenleser May 2015 #6

I think the bottom line is the person has to be able to beat the Rethugs in the general. pnwmom May 2015 #15

It's embarassing to see you belittle Bernie's policy positions to... Agschmid May 2015 #59

No, it's embarrassing to see people evade the real questions about what he can get done. nt stevenleser May 2015 #127

It's not an evasion, it's a legitimate "I don't know"... Agschmid May 2015 #165

that's admitting you don't care if anything actually passes treestar May 2015 #158

That information is easy to find frazzled May 2015 #10

Yep, I've seen his legislative history. He can't say he can get done the kinds of things stevenleser May 2015 #11

Have you included in your search of his legislative history ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #30

How in the world would you expect one of the few uncorrupted politicians to be able to stillwaiting May 2015 #35

The excuses don't matter unless you can explain why it would change stevenleser May 2015 #41

Electing someone President who can radically shift Americans understanding stillwaiting May 2015 #45

In other words, you offer wishful thinking against 24 years of Bernies inability to affect change. stevenleser May 2015 #112

All of the media spokespeople are sure to be saying that over the next year. stillwaiting May 2015 #115

Because it's an obvious question given the circumstances that Bernie will have to answer. stevenleser May 2015 #125

I've already addressed what good a Sanders Presidency could bring to our nation. stillwaiting May 2015 #130

And it's all wishful thinking that has no chance of passing either house of congress. stevenleser May 2015 #132

Sanders can present his vision to get people in this country to vote for people that SUPPORT stillwaiting May 2015 #159

Right on. Ed Suspicious May 2015 #192

"The power of the president is the power to persuade." (Richard Neustadt) Sanders will leverage Ed Suspicious May 2015 #191

Which gives him exactly 1 more than Clinton. ieoeja May 2015 #12

Two differences. #1 - She's not running on a promise to remake the country in a progressive image. stevenleser May 2015 #13

And there you have it. Agschmid May 2015 #64

Yep. She's running for status quo. morningfog May 2015 #98

Nope, see my #102. Nt stevenleser May 2015 #103

Great to be back to the days of pragmatic woodchucks. morningfog May 2015 #146

Ad hominems do not answer the question about your candidate. nt stevenleser May 2015 #152

They are silly questions. morningfog May 2015 #167

IT'S HER TURN!!12 frylock May 2015 #168

That's correct. Her campaign would be about Liberal incrementalism. Which is the only thing possible stevenleser May 2015 #102

LOL-- so it's ok that Hillary's done less, because she's not trying to improve things anyway. Marr May 2015 #120

Nope. Interesting straw man though. nt stevenleser May 2015 #124

I'm glad for this thread and especially for this post. I don't see how in the world Sanders' action Number23 May 2015 #37

Remember when Kucinich was the "anointed one"? Sadly, their legislative successes are on par. Tarheel_Dem May 2015 #85

It's more than Hillary. Marr May 2015 #121

It's just that Hillary's a serious contender for the office, Bernie is not. He just talks alot. Tarheel_Dem May 2015 #200

I am 100% serious when I say that I don't understand any of this really breathless, almost manic Number23 May 2015 #171

"Significantly higher". They say it's "to push Hillary to the left", but how much of the party.... Tarheel_Dem May 2015 #199

This was just legislation he sponsored that passed JonLP24 May 2015 #99

He's been in congress 24 years. That spin doesn't work. He's running to radically change stevenleser May 2015 #104

It isn't spin JonLP24 May 2015 #105

It's spin. you're making excuses for why he couldn't do much in 24 years when he is running to be stevenleser May 2015 #108

I said make comparisons -- how does he stack up JonLP24 May 2015 #111

Thanks for your links. And you're right, passing legislation is just one bit of a Congress person's Number23 May 2015 #174

A lot of the bills & the record of Senate behavior are related to JonLP24 May 2015 #175

Compare him to others JonLP24 May 2015 #97

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words May 2015 #18

The points I raised suggest there is no reason for him to be the nominee stevenleser May 2015 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words May 2015 #50

yes. Ed Suspicious May 2015 #193

Actually, that is the problem with the Democrats in Congress, they won't necessarily stand by the still_one May 2015 #109

Politically, I believe you raise decent points. Raine1967 May 2015 #20

With your outlook we will just keep getting Republican policy, just like the last 6 years. cui bono May 2015 #189

Maybe because the people.... daleanime May 2015 #3

WAIT? By your logic Because Bernie is the FEDERAL Senator representing Vermont and got a clause diabeticman May 2015 #7

It proves there is a lack of evidence that he would be an EFFECTIVE President, pnwmom May 2015 #16

.... diabeticman May 2015 #19

That's a good point. It's sad though, and I applaud Sanders for trying. But we have to be realistic Hoyt May 2015 #8

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words May 2015 #17

This has nothing to do with Sanders DemocratSinceBirth May 2015 #21

It does in the sense that the people who think he can lead somehow by pnwmom May 2015 #34

What role does a US Senator have in a state legislature? TheKentuckian May 2015 #22

He helped write the law that allocated ACA money to Vermont, making single-payer possible there. pnwmom May 2015 #24

It seems then that this is an example of him succeeding at his job, and the state politicians Chathamization May 2015 #49

He did succeed to the best the overarching situation would dictate. Once state pools and oversight TheKentuckian May 2015 #100

Is this the same as Hillary failing to get healthcare in the 90s? leftstreet May 2015 #23

Hillary learned from her mistakes and Obama basically took her revised plan pnwmom May 2015 #25

Better back up, John Edwards came up with the plan not Hillary. nt Snotcicles May 2015 #28

+1 Do you hear that beep beep beep of the truck backing up? L0oniX May 2015 #179

Actually it was written by the Heritage Foundation DURHAM D May 2015 #180

Not quite Edwards wanted it to evolve into single payer. And other differences. Snotcicles May 2015 #182

First you said the ACA was John's idea DURHAM D May 2015 #190

^^^THIS^^^ Bravo! Thread win. L0oniX May 2015 #178

I Will No Longer Settle For The Lesser Of Two Evils - Go Bernie Go cantbeserious May 2015 #26

This is a legitimate discussion and I would like to see answers better than "LOL" leftofcool May 2015 #27

I suspect that you would like to see answers like "Oh dear, I must switch to supporting Hillary", djean111 May 2015 #29

I would not want anyone to switch their support to Hillary. leftofcool May 2015 #31

+1 ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #32

Yeah, I rec'd because of the potential to have an interesting chat about this Number23 May 2015 #36

He wrote a health care provision that made it CanadaexPat May 2015 #33

His hair looks silly too DefenseLawyer May 2015 #38

So you don't want to have a serious discussion about his potential effectiveness as President. pnwmom May 2015 #39

I may have been implying that your "issue" was just as frivolous DefenseLawyer May 2015 #40

That's a weird distraction. Cha May 2015 #43

That is only a "serious question" for the most ardent of Clinton supporters DefenseLawyer May 2015 #46

I don't have a candidate.. and it's still a weird distraction about "Bernie's hair" which I find a Cha May 2015 #48

Karl Frisch, Democratic strategist, DefenseLawyer May 2015 #52

Isn't Karl Frisch one of the clowns on the Stephanie Miller Democratic talking point show? uncleverusername May 2015 #56

which is the reason why we can't have nice things in America Pooka Fey May 2015 #101

Reference for the youngsters here. -none May 2015 #162

Bernie was not the governor, or a part of the state legislature at the time... Agschmid May 2015 #42

He arranged for funding through the ACA, which gave Vermont the chance to set up pnwmom May 2015 #65

Government hasn't done anything significant for decades, might be nice to try something new. Agschmid May 2015 #67

I find it absolutely fascinating Aerows May 2015 #44

You misunderstood my point. I'm not questioning Vermont's liberalism. pnwmom May 2015 #61

Why do people think Aerows May 2015 #74

I don't think they are. But I want to know why you think Bernie Sanders pnwmom May 2015 #75

This is my point. Aerows May 2015 #87

Vermont is not as liberal as you think. uncleverusername May 2015 #54

Maybe not. But what states are more liberal? n/t pnwmom May 2015 #62

... Maybe Hawaii... Agschmid May 2015 #71

But... It is. Agschmid May 2015 #70

Things change. lovemydog May 2015 #55

It's a great question but I would still vote for the candidate that doesn't quit before starting. nt Bonobo May 2015 #66

Makes ya think about imaginary power vs. actual power. There is no magic wand. nt Hekate May 2015 #72

Ron Wyden wrote that clause. joshcryer May 2015 #76

I'm curious if he did, because if so then the OP's whole line of reasoning is BS. davidpdx May 2015 #91

Bernie attempted to move it to 2014. joshcryer May 2015 #92

Thanks for the answer davidpdx May 2015 #94

Gotta be 4%+ higher in Vermont. joshcryer May 2015 #95

Thanks for this information! n/t deutsey May 2015 #107

He created an opening. Others failed to use it. True Blue Door May 2015 #77

How did Hillary do with Hillarycare? How about her two anti free speech flag burning bills? merrily May 2015 #78

Which states are more liberal than Vermont? Hillary learned from the experience, pnwmom May 2015 #80

LOL! If you say so, it must be so. merrily May 2015 #81

You still haven't backed up your claim. Which states are more liberal than Vermont? n/t pnwmom May 2015 #82

That's your focus? SeriouslY? merrily May 2015 #84

Isn't that the focus of the thread? wyldwolf May 2015 #90

"Hillary learned from the experience". Do you know how aristocratic and gross that sounds? Marr May 2015 #123

Claiming someone learned from experience is a bad thing now if it's Hillary? stevenleser May 2015 #134

Helping to sell a war based on transparently bogus information is shameful. Marr May 2015 #137

Do you ever respond to what is actually being said? nt stevenleser May 2015 #142

I did respond, and kept to the actual point, which was Hillary's IWR vote. Marr May 2015 #149

No, her health care vote was the point. nt stevenleser May 2015 #154

You aren't very good at this. /nt Marr May 2015 #156

K&R Jamaal510 May 2015 #83

Three Vermonters respond to Gov. Shumlin�s decision on health reform eridani May 2015 #86

Different time quaker bill May 2015 #88

this, of course, isn't a reflection on Bernie's desire for single payer. It's more a reflection of.. wyldwolf May 2015 #89

It's more of a reflection to argue for the sake of it. joshcryer May 2015 #93

and of course the legislative branch is required. Some of President Obama's Democratic criticis still_one May 2015 #110

True. This is nothing new from that group. They think a President can govern by decree. stevenleser May 2015 #133

Yes, I've asked several Bernie supporters for names of GOP Senators who will vote for his agenda. stevenleser May 2015 #128

It is an excellent point, but regardless of Vermont, the fact was we did not have the votes to pass still_one May 2015 #106

The country needs to turn hard a-port. lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #113

The state asked for the waiver. I fail to see how the means that it was Bernie who got it. MN jwirr May 2015 #114

Tag team hatchet job. You and Leser are quite the pair. Comrade Grumpy May 2015 #118

Ad hominems and other techniques for evading the questions won't help. nt stevenleser May 2015 #131

I'm not evading questions; I'm ignoring silly shit-slinging and calling out the shit-slingers. Comrade Grumpy May 2015 #161

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words May 2015 #140

Well wait - I thought we had to criticize our leaders? treestar May 2015 #160

You can't answer the question, so you call names instead. That's helpful. pnwmom May 2015 #170

there is no question to answer. Bernie does not govern vermont or sit in its legislature. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #184

The question is: pnwmom May 2015 #186

"Leaving health care aside" blah blah blah blah blah blah. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #197

I hear he has boxes in his garage. /nt Marr May 2015 #122

Interesting. hrmjustin May 2015 #138

Hillary co wrote and sponsored a bill against flag burning... it failed Ichingcarpenter May 2015 #147

He's not a state official of Vermont treestar May 2015 #157

lots of obnoxious comments in this thread from champions of the status quo. m-lekktor May 2015 #166

you keep thinking you've seen how low the PUMAS will go, but it will get worse. Way worse Doctor_J May 2015 #173

"it is better to show up than to give up" Agony May 2015 #169

The president knew that the states would not be able to afford SP. The ACA was designed Doctor_J May 2015 #172

He doesn't have to lead the country left ...the country's left will be attracted to him and... L0oniX May 2015 #176

It's wrong to fault Sanders for Vermont and Obama for lack of Public Option RandySF May 2015 #177

It's not his fault but it still begs the question. pnwmom May 2015 #181

soooo that somehow means 70-90% of the country doesn't want Medicare for All? MisterP May 2015 #183

Much of the country already embraces "sharp left" issues -- Bernie isn't exactly radical. SMC22307 May 2015 #195

Completely unrecommended. Enthusiast May 2015 #196