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0rganism

(25,642 posts)

93. belief != lack of belief

Mon May 4, 2015, 07:21 PM

May 2015

this is where a lot of discussions of theism vs. atheism go off the beam, imho

"An atheist who says that there is no creator, or god, or deity, is expressing a belief"

sorry, but this is a (clumsy) expression of a lack of belief, and they are not equivalent. exceptional claims require exceptional evidence, the person claiming the existence of one or more omniscient/omnipotent/omnipresent entities might reasonably be expected to provide some strong non-circular evidence of this remarkable existence, whereas the person who says they do not believe in said entities can point to a lack of sufficiently strong evidence for the positive proposition as sufficient to qualify lack of belief.

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It is absolutely okay to provoke religious fundamentalists [View all] FLPanhandle May 2015 OP

Is it also acceptable to provoke fundamentalist type atheists? guillaumeb May 2015 #1

If I tried to impose some atheist rule on you FLPanhandle May 2015 #3

Do you use the N word? Renew Deal May 2015 #95

You may be missing the meaning of "fundamentalism" here. -eom gcomeau May 2015 #119

I'm asking for a different reason. Renew Deal May 2015 #129

The ones the OP is speaking of... gcomeau May 2015 #139

In your opinion Renew Deal May 2015 #180

If you sincerely don't comprehend... gcomeau May 2015 #231

Now you see the point. Renew Deal May 2015 #234

Umm, what? gcomeau May 2015 #237

like they say azureblue May 2015 #107

No way dude mindwalker_i May 2015 #149

No way. It's cottage cheese. Jamastiene May 2015 #182

What is a "fundamentalist atheist"?? sufrommich May 2015 #10

Someone who exhibits much the same behavior as a religious fundamentalist guillaumeb May 2015 #18

Atheism is a lack of belief,there is no "worship", no prayers, sufrommich May 2015 #23

Agreed. guillaumeb May 2015 #28

Ahh, then it's like TexasProgresive May 2015 #44

My understanding is that you're describing agnosticism. geek tragedy May 2015 #52

Atheism is not a positive statement that there is no god. Marr May 2015 #81

BS. You are describing a (very small) subset of atheism whatthehey May 2015 #106

are you sure strong atheism is a lot less common than weak atheism? nt geek tragedy May 2015 #113

In my experience, yes. beam me up scottie May 2015 #155

No, I'm an agnostic atheist. beam me up scottie May 2015 #154

an atheist can just say hfojvt May 2015 #229

No, but there is a lot to be nasty and irritating about NT 1939 May 2015 #164

Oh bother. edhopper May 2015 #26

My feelings exactly. Thanks, Pooh! erronis May 2015 #140

Atheists have science, which is not classified as a "belief system." Religion relies on faith, by WinkyDink May 2015 #32

what of my other points? guillaumeb May 2015 #46

Bollocks, no-one here takes what Dawkins or any atheist says as "unquestioned truth" muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #69

The faith that you discuss is obviously Christianity. guillaumeb May 2015 #75

Obviously, I am discussing several faiths muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #87

I could have misunderstood, but if so I misunderstood guillaumeb May 2015 #151

Religions make a lot of claims about the nature of the universe besides it's origin. Marr May 2015 #121

Everybody has science. rug May 2015 #134

Hate to be the proverbial fly in the ointment here, but science relies on 'faith' also (at KingCharlemagne May 2015 #212

Atheism is lack of belief - TBF May 2015 #41

a lack of "belief" azureblue May 2015 #103

As an Atheist, I don't "lack" a damned thing. A HERETIC I AM May 2015 #249

Nicely put! n/t ozone_man May 2015 #252

No need to be so angry - TBF May 2015 #259

Angry? A HERETIC I AM May 2015 #265

OK, you're not angry. TBF May 2015 #270

Why shouldn't atheists be angry when we're constantly misrepresented here? beam me up scottie May 2015 #266

And with the responses of you TBF May 2015 #269

Insisting that there is no real proof of god Binkie The Clown May 2015 #47

Agreed. The existence of a creator is unprovable. guillaumeb May 2015 #53

to qualify that azureblue May 2015 #109

A nice point. guillaumeb May 2015 #153

I know at least two clowns who are not scary. Jamastiene May 2015 #183

How can I trust you? guillaumeb May 2015 #250

What is an example of #1? Oktober May 2015 #62

to refer back to number one: guillaumeb May 2015 #67

belief != lack of belief 0rganism May 2015 #93

Call it lack of belief, or affirmation of non-belief, guillaumeb May 2015 #156

No, lack of belief is NOT belief. beam me up scottie May 2015 #159

Fine. I will substitute assume in all future debate. guillaumeb May 2015 #160

Oh you'll be reminded. beam me up scottie May 2015 #163

I used them to make a point guillaumeb May 2015 #171

But you never provided examples of your stereotype. beam me up scottie May 2015 #174

My examples were drawn from responses here on DU. guillaumeb May 2015 #251

Well some people are going to be angry TBF May 2015 #260

Excellent points guillaumeb May 2015 #261

unfortunately this is more than a semantic distinction 0rganism May 2015 #242

Well said. beam me up scottie May 2015 #264

This is an old game... Oktober May 2015 #96

It's a hereditary disease. yallerdawg May 2015 #100

A mind virus... nt haikugal May 2015 #152

You're close but no cigar. God lives in the Milky Way...or should I say A Milky Way. BlueJazz May 2015 #148

I love Ovaltine. Jamastiene May 2015 #184

Many Beliefs? padfun May 2015 #122

And what is your response to manipulative con artists like Pat Robertson or Ken Ham? gregcrawford May 2015 #125

I sometimes wonder if Ken Hamm really believes it... Oktober May 2015 #210

What about Aliens? It could be Aliens and this planet is a science experiment. Just sayin' freshwest May 2015 #144

Do you have proof that those atheist actually exist? beam me up scottie May 2015 #135

atheists who feel that their "belief" that there is no creator is more valid than a person of faiths AlbertCat May 2015 #136

But saying "fundamentalist atheists" makes one sound so freakin clever! beam me up scottie May 2015 #179

Maybe the term "devout atheist" would be more accurate world wide wally May 2015 #94

"devout" implies belief beam me up scottie May 2015 #158

to me dead_head May 2015 #111

a person who would'nt change their set of beliefs AlbertCat May 2015 #138

Wow, so much wrong with that post I don't know where to start. beam me up scottie May 2015 #173

If god actually showed up on the six o'clock news rather than on a piece of toast.... truebrit71 May 2015 #268

there really aren't many of those samsingh May 2015 #133

Evidently it's a person who insists science must be taught in science classes Major Nikon May 2015 #178

Fundamentalists believe that the statements in the Bible are literally true. PeaceNikki May 2015 #14

Only certain statements QED May 2015 #65

He is the asshole 1939 May 2015 #172

Never in my life have I seen the scenario you describe, ronnie624 May 2015 #226

Only times 1939 May 2015 #256

Anyone who doesn't agree with them. Jamastiene May 2015 #189

?? We have a secular society. We aren't the UK, where the monarch is "Defender of the Faith." WinkyDink May 2015 #27

If this is a secular society, guillaumeb May 2015 #36

It is. It's a secular society where the Christians have great power and privilege PeaceNikki May 2015 #43

I am a believer, but I absolutely agree with you guillaumeb May 2015 #48

Yes, we can agree on that. PeaceNikki May 2015 #49

It has not always been this way - TBF May 2015 #50

Thank you. Jamastiene May 2015 #194

They act like we're questioning some long held TBF May 2015 #209

I don't see atheists sawing people's heads off... backscatter712 May 2015 #57

Yes but we're annoying and that's just as bad as religious fundamentalism. beam me up scottie May 2015 #177

yeah, it's okay Roy Rolling May 2015 #90

+1. Good manners... ms liberty May 2015 #108

^^^^^ This! +1. n/t ColesCountyDem May 2015 #137

It's oxymoron time, kiddies! valerief May 2015 #91

Yes, it's acceptable. LiberalAndProud May 2015 #126

absolutely samsingh May 2015 #131

What is a 'fundamentalist type atheist?' haikugal May 2015 #142

Easy. beam me up scottie May 2015 #157

We have the ability to express ourselves and don't feel compelled to sit down and shut up! haikugal May 2015 #165

And for that we get called fundamentalists, militant, radical blah blah blah beam me up scottie May 2015 #169

Amazing isn't it? haikugal May 2015 #170

And yet, if someone drew a bunch of cartoons of "uppity atheists" Warren DeMontague May 2015 #187

No, but I'd sure give them a dirty look. beam me up scottie May 2015 #190

I burned out most of my irritatation after Charlie Hebdo. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #191

I was accused of "cheering" for Geller today. beam me up scottie May 2015 #192

She's an ass Warren DeMontague May 2015 #195

I believe most people can control their violent tendencies. beam me up scottie May 2015 #196

Good point. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #198

They were told by the pope recently that it's cool to respond to insults with violence. PeaceNikki May 2015 #213

Anyone who refuses to listen to preaching Jamastiene May 2015 #197

"incitement" = "saying something that pisses someone off". Warren DeMontague May 2015 #186

Yes, and people don't think twice about it cemaphonic May 2015 #207

History has been filled with bloodshed from atheists responding to attacks against them. Arugula Latte May 2015 #245

I don't actively seek to offend anyone, but that's just me. Fundamentalist extremists of all sorts uppityperson May 2015 #2

It's the meek, I'll follow this religion's rules just so they don't get offended attitude. FLPanhandle May 2015 #4

That makes more sense, thank you. Not "we should" but "we should not be afraid to". uppityperson May 2015 #9

That's what happens when Itype out a quick topic in between other stuff FLPanhandle May 2015 #12

K&R! n/t RKP5637 May 2015 #31

That I do agree with, much better stated! n/t ms liberty May 2015 #110

I agree. Fundamentalists of all types are the problem. I don't understand why our first liberal_at_heart May 2015 #82

I agree fully. RiverNoord May 2015 #101

It depends on your experiences. Jamastiene May 2015 #199

Confronting some fundamentalists only fuels their anger and hatred. I'm not saying those in places liberal_at_heart May 2015 #255

I agree Renew Deal May 2015 #97

If you imagine that is all Geller and her sympathizers are advocating for, you are mistaken. Jefferson23 May 2015 #5

This is not really about Geller FLPanhandle May 2015 #8

This is your response to that? Why not say you do not agree and leave it there, why speak Jefferson23 May 2015 #13

It might be legal and protected, but a civil society needs respect and TOLERANCE. KittyWampus May 2015 #6

Does it matter what one group or another finds offensive? FLPanhandle May 2015 #11

Your argument is somewhat juvenile. Buzz Clik May 2015 #20

So you approve of police brutality edhopper May 2015 #29

do you approve of using the word "thug" on DU even after some members have objected? KittyWampus May 2015 #38

No I object to it edhopper May 2015 #64

If a religious fuckstick finds certain imagery offensive, they can not look at it seveneyes May 2015 #40

so gay teens who are subjected to taunts should just ignore it. KittyWampus May 2015 #54

Yes, because if they don't, they are being intolerant of someone's "sincere religious belief"... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #60

So you made us all endure years of Phelps, Robertson and the various Archbishops shouting in Bluenorthwest May 2015 #42

-I- made "you all" endure years of Phelps? You object to hate speech by engaging in it against me KittyWampus May 2015 #58

No-one is "engaging in hate speech against you" muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #73

I was accused of something not even remotely true in an incredibly hateful, vile manner. KittyWampus May 2015 #77

Criticism and an accusation are not 'hate', and there was nothing 'vile' in the post muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #84

Of course the 'you' was meant generally, as in straight religious folks, but you yourself defended Bluenorthwest May 2015 #228

You obviously do not know what hate speech really is. Jamastiene May 2015 #200

Results of your Jury Service beam me up scottie May 2015 #66

As a moderate reader, I am offended by "romance novels". Binkie The Clown May 2015 #55

Go head Binkie, go start a thread calling black men "thugs". KittyWampus May 2015 #59

I do not believe that, so why would I say it? Binkie The Clown May 2015 #70

Religion is a stone around the neck of humanity... Oktober May 2015 #211

Well, go ahead and do it then. Provoke. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #7

People who cannot handle viewpoints different than their own? cwydro May 2015 #16

No one here is excusing their behavior. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #19

"Have to"? But they do with with impugnity. Buzz Clik May 2015 #22

No, you're right. Let's not aggravate people who believe in extreme ideologies. Yorktown May 2015 #185

I think that limiting it to religions is small potatoes, and ignores relevant consistency in our own LanternWaste May 2015 #15

It's not "okay" to provoke anyone. Buzz Clik May 2015 #17

Yes it is. FLPanhandle May 2015 #25

Legal? Usually. Buzz Clik May 2015 #39

Religious fundamentalists are the enemy FLPanhandle May 2015 #45

What's the point of riling people up? treestar May 2015 #21

But they can impose rules even without a law FLPanhandle May 2015 #30

Everyone's got to choose whether they want to make Mohamed drawings or not treestar May 2015 #143

to affect change PeaceNikki May 2015 #37

Roe v. Wade is still the law treestar May 2015 #145

Wow, really?? What good is Roe v Wade if there's no access? PeaceNikki May 2015 #168

how in the world can you say something like that when, each and every day, for years, there niyad May 2015 #258

They cannot impose their beliefs on you? progressoid May 2015 #63

Back when everyone was more religious treestar May 2015 #146

When was that? progressoid May 2015 #166

"Provoke" is, IMO, the incendiary term. To some, another's mere existence = "provocation." WinkyDink May 2015 #24

You are right, probably should have used different terms. FLPanhandle May 2015 #34

You pretty much have to go on the offensive to protect yourself Jamastiene May 2015 #203

Nothing wrong with being provocative muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #79

Yank their chain and rattle their cage at evey opportunity! I'm considering having brewens May 2015 #33

I agree, edhopper May 2015 #35

Provoke? No. Correct their errors? Absolutely. nt TBF May 2015 #51

They will call that a provocation. FiveGoodMen May 2015 #240

You make a fair point ... nt TBF May 2015 #241

Doesn't change the fact that we live in a reality where someone might kill you as a result The2ndWheel May 2015 #56

To what end? DrDan May 2015 #61

To effect change of course. FLPanhandle May 2015 #68

We also should not be afraid to allow them their personal beliefs DrDan May 2015 #72

Personal is the key word FLPanhandle May 2015 #74

You don't like them invading your space, so in turn DrDan May 2015 #78

Where I live, just being gay "provokes" them. Jamastiene May 2015 #204

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter, sir! nt Codeine May 2015 #71

also known as my glass of wine at the end of the day rant... FLPanhandle May 2015 #76

Okay? I guess. 99Forever May 2015 #80

Why should you "actively seek to offend the religious" if they are NOT trying to force anything? whathehell May 2015 #83

If they are not trying to force anything, my OP doesn't apply FLPanhandle May 2015 #89

Always remember what Bill Maher said about Jerry Falwell: Initech May 2015 #85

Ummm, no HassleCat May 2015 #86

Jailing wingzeroday May 2015 #117

Absolutely... SidDithers May 2015 #88

This message was self-deleted by its author Renew Deal May 2015 #92

Bullshit. RiverNoord May 2015 #98

"common decency to not go out of your way to malign it in a way that's offensive to them" FLPanhandle May 2015 #102

Well, you can't go through life without offending someone, somehow. RiverNoord May 2015 #181

You have no clue. Jamastiene May 2015 #206

. PeaceNikki May 2015 #214

I may have much more of a clue than you state. RiverNoord May 2015 #219

what you don't get because of your straight privilege is that those who take offense at others who Bluenorthwest May 2015 #233

I guess that is true. RiverNoord May 2015 #271

If you are gay and get raped in my hometown, Jamastiene May 2015 #257

People have the right to be insensitive twits jcboon May 2015 #99

Shhh. They're easily offended so LiberalAndProud May 2015 #104

I agree. Keeping quiet has worked so well throughout history. Arugula Latte May 2015 #246

Once again dead_head May 2015 #105

"We SHOULD actively seek to offend the religious." NanceGreggs May 2015 #112

Why? FLPanhandle May 2015 #116

Your words ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #150

Our rights as women are under attack by religious representatives. Arugula Latte May 2015 #248

There is a vast difference ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #253

The less influence religion has on this country, the better, Arugula Latte May 2015 #262

I couldn't agree more ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #263

I don't think it will be entirely eradicated, but Arugula Latte May 2015 #272

There are two issues at play: Freedom of Speech, and Cultural Bigotry. Maedhros May 2015 #114

Art throughout history has offended. FLPanhandle May 2015 #118

I disagree. Chemisse May 2015 #115

That was sort of the point of the OP FLPanhandle May 2015 #120

Here is what I disagree with: Chemisse May 2015 #123

In the case where they are imposing their doctrine... FLPanhandle May 2015 #128

A lot of Muslims interpret cartoons of the Prophet as an attack on their identity as Muslims YoungDemCA May 2015 #127

Yes, and it's a solid sign of indoctrination Yorktown May 2015 #175

yes, people have the right to behave like assholes Skittles May 2015 #124

bingo! yuiyoshida May 2015 #216

i agree samsingh May 2015 #130

I disagree. LWolf May 2015 #132

HOOAH! weissmam May 2015 #141

Yes it is. ibegurpard May 2015 #147

Hear, hear! K&R Yorktown May 2015 #161

It really isn't hard Caretha May 2015 #162

Okay? FUCK THAT. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #167

So, bully them before they bully you. got it. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #176

You are pro 'incite to murder' AgingAmerican May 2015 #188

Fundamentalists do not have the right to sanitize reality to their particular demands. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #193

So you are pro incite to riot? AgingAmerican May 2015 #201

2 gay men hold hands walking down the street in a town full of homophobes. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #202

This message was self-deleted by its author beam me up scottie May 2015 #205

What if drawing pictures of Mohammed is CENTRAL to someone's religion, so much that it is mandatory? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #208

Atheist here: No, it is NOT "absolutely okay". Are you KingCharlemagne May 2015 #215

Why be tolerant of intolerance? Matrosov May 2015 #218

Willing to toss Judaism and Christianity under the bus too, pal, thereby achieving KingCharlemagne May 2015 #220

If you are an atheist, why do you always defend religion? Bluenorthwest May 2015 #223

Several of my students this term are Muslim and hail from places KingCharlemagne May 2015 #224

But defending your students is not the same as defending their religion. It's just not. Bluenorthwest May 2015 #236

You're tiresome. Some of my students are Muslim and some would probably qualify KingCharlemagne May 2015 #238

You put words and ideas into my mouth. You insult and provoke me as if that was your right. Why? Bluenorthwest May 2015 #273

Because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" Matrosov May 2015 #232

I said Abrahamic belief systems Matrosov May 2015 #230

So is it okay for religious people to push the view that we will burn in Hell for our non-belief? Arugula Latte May 2015 #247

We'd be supporting this if Christians were the target audience. ileus May 2015 #217

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2015 #221

Wouldn't it be great if instead of trying to provoke people to anger and violence.... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #222

A rational conversation with ISIS...or the Westboro Baptist Church... brooklynite May 2015 #225

It's worth a Hail Mary pass...... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #227

ISIS and Westboro Baptist aren't even in the same universe Renew Deal May 2015 #235

I'd say they're exactly the same. The only difference is... brooklynite May 2015 #239

I think that ignoring Geller will be a lot easier going forward.. frylock May 2015 #243

It is absolutely silly to use the word "absolutely" in this context. Orsino May 2015 #244

The going theory is apparently get the red out May 2015 #254

Until they shoot you quaker bill May 2015 #267