General Discussion

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)

37. Possibly, & the gallery might've been liable f/ not having adequate security.

Wed May 6, 2015, 11:09 AM

May 2015

Long ago and far away, one of the circles I hung with did underground comix. My friends mostly did ironic stuff. The little I did was absurdist. Then there were those who did shit simply to PROVOKE A REACTION. Like a 5 year old who finds out saying a curse word gets them attention.

So those artists whose intent is to provoke should have the guts to admit it.

Now, Serrano. I never even bothered to read much about him or his intent w/his work. Seems on its face to go for shock value.

There is a holy tradition in India of using dung turned into ash for anointment or consecration. I doubt he was invoking that tradition.

See- The Holy Virgin Mary by Ofili.

One of my majors in University was Art History and another was Art Criticism. I have little use for work that need to use visceral reactions or is derivative. It's the mark of immaturity.

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Pam Geller lashes out at critics: You�re saying the �pretty girl caused her own rape� [View all] DonViejo May 2015 OP

She's right... Oktober May 2015 #1

In what way is she right? jberryhill May 2015 #27

Quick copy and paste for you... Oktober May 2015 #34

She is not a crime victim jberryhill May 2015 #42

Not a victim is right - that disgusting Islamaphobe is the REAL criminal. InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #107

Which implies that the shooters were not REAL criminals... Oktober May 2015 #109

No It Doesn't! ProfessorGAC May 2015 #221

Uh, yeah, it kind of does. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #394

Thank you for laying out what is so obvious... Oktober May 2015 #485

If a cartoon can cause you to murder someone, you have no place in civilized society. Shoulders of Giants May 2015 #475

If you keep creating straw men to respond to I am sure you will continue to be outraged. stevenleser May 2015 #234

Which implies that the shooters were not REAL criminals... AlbertCat May 2015 #273

your argument is meaningless. terrorists love the support. samsingh May 2015 #283

Not much reading comprehension, huh? AlbertCat May 2015 #308

being a shit disturber does not mean you get to KILL THEM samsingh May 2015 #284

being a shit disturber does not mean you get to KILL THEM AlbertCat May 2015 #310

She picked Garland, Texas because there was a Muslim conference there this year... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #291

Awww. You mean you realize you're probably NOT going to be able to outlaw blasphemy? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #381

You mean you realize you're probably NOT going to be able to outlaw blasphemy? AlbertCat May 2015 #389

So why do you seem to think "she deliberately said something she knew was going to piss people off" Warren DeMontague May 2015 #393

Comparing feminism to bigotry. Why am I not surprised n/t kcr May 2015 #409

Way to deliberately miss the point. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #442

I'm not missing the point. You are. kcr May 2015 #456

I'm saying that arguing something isn't protected speech because it "might piss someone off" Warren DeMontague May 2015 #463

Who is saying something isn't protected speech? kcr May 2015 #467

I don't think she, personally, is a victim. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #470

Well, I'm sorry you saw an opinion you don't agree with on DU. Gosh. kcr May 2015 #471

And the subthread is about whether a) "she is the REAL criminal" and b) Warren DeMontague May 2015 #472

Yes, I did scroll up to see if maybe I missed something kcr May 2015 #474

It's not comparing her to Anita Sarkeesian, for one. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #477

Yes what they were saying and/or doing. That's what I meant. kcr May 2015 #478

It's a faulty argument. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #479

Ok why do you keep bringing up whether it's constitutionally protected? kcr May 2015 #480

I think she's an asshat. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #481

I agree. I don't think it's okay to use people like that as a weapon, either. kcr May 2015 #482

Ugh AlbertCat May 2015 #418

Anybody who deliberately seeks to put on a "Draw Mohammed" contest calimary May 2015 #387

She knew EXACTLY what she was doing. Trying to stir up shit. AlbertCat May 2015 #391

I'm guessing she picked Garland Texas because that's where, a week after the Charlie Hebdo killings, Petrushka May 2015 #390

And you don't find that extremely telling as per Geller's motives here? nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #399

slight clarification... keroro gunsou May 2015 #533

And a quick cut and paste of my response to your cut and paste. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #59

Charlie Hebdo, Andres Serrano, South Park.... Anyone that creates art mr_liberal May 2015 #91

Pam Geller's not the artist, either. nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #97

Or exhibits it: comedy central, the museum, the movie theater, etc.. nt. mr_liberal May 2015 #101

Is Comedy Central/the movie theater/museum showing the art because it wants violence? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #104

No the difference is her event was about free speech, mr_liberal May 2015 #224

She scheduled this right after Charlie Hedbo and yet you think she's surprised it happened? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #226

You must not be very familiar with ms. Gellar Scootaloo May 2015 #265

Not to mention she specifically held it in a place where she knew there were already tensions. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #268

So anyone who threatens violence wins, in the name of whatever cranky 'belief'. Yorktown May 2015 #459

if you read my post, you would know what I am saying Scootaloo May 2015 #462

I read your post, and highlighted its blind spot Yorktown May 2015 #469

WhatI say is that her freedom of speech was not in question Scootaloo May 2015 #486

You are making two fundamental mistakes Yorktown May 2015 #489

No difference at all The Green Manalishi May 2015 #229

So you're saying people should want violence for the sake of violence? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #233

It does not matter The Green Manalishi May 2015 #424

Your argument may work somewhat in concept, but fails in reality. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #434

the word 'evil' is too strong, but yes, Islam itself poses problems Yorktown May 2015 #464

Any ideology, religious or secular, will inevitably have problems. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #500

I agree, but I see Pam Geller as being unwittingly useful Yorktown May 2015 #519

your make good points samsingh May 2015 #288

They have every right to be 'mental slaves' to a religion, if they so choose. Chemisse May 2015 #358

But they aren't leaving the rest of us alone oberliner May 2015 #408

Exactly EOM The Green Manalishi May 2015 #421

You can't blame the entire, huge Muslim world for the actions of a few. Chemisse May 2015 #443

"When people draw their prophet, it hurts and insults millions of Muslims..." oberliner May 2015 #446

The drawing of the pictures isn't even the problem. polly7 May 2015 #450

How about encouraging other Muslims who don't object to it? oberliner May 2015 #451

I believe most Muslims are far more tolerant than you, or Geller are making out. polly7 May 2015 #454

I believe the vast majority of Muslims are extremely tolerant oberliner May 2015 #460

It's demonizing and dehumanizing to those she's doing it to, isn't it? polly7 May 2015 #465

To quote Irish humorist Dave Allen... derby378 May 2015 #99

Please tell me you aren't serious... Oktober May 2015 #103

"Religion should be off limits for mockery" Are you fucking serious? cleanhippie May 2015 #248

Religion should be off limits for mockery. AlbertCat May 2015 #270

Difference between Geller and ACLU etal is one will fight for the right of anyone NoJusticeNoPeace May 2015 #231

...^ that 840high May 2015 #251

you make good points. too bad the terrorist apologists don't understand samsingh May 2015 #279

an event she promoted was ATTACKED by gunmen samsingh May 2015 #286

bullfuckingshit. how was she in any way victimized? frylock May 2015 #95

There's a bounty on her head now. 840high May 2015 #252

Oh, the humanity! frylock May 2015 #269

You must approve killing her. 840high May 2015 #345

no, i'm just not going to lose any sleep over the prospect.. frylock May 2015 #351

And here is her response to it. Careful, it might bring you to tears. cbayer May 2015 #272

I don't like her but she 840high May 2015 #342

She's not right. She's manipulative . cbayer May 2015 #347

Hold on, let me get my tiny violin. uncleverusername May 2015 #332

I'm sure it's very tiny. Try 840high May 2015 #348

Who is preventing her from saying her racist crap? uncleverusername May 2015 #349

So you and your tiny 840high May 2015 #353

Who said that? uncleverusername May 2015 #357

No, she isn't ann--- May 2015 #135

Welcome to America... Oktober May 2015 #160

Both were victims ann--- May 2015 #163

Scandalized you say! Oktober May 2015 #184

Guess you'd ann--- May 2015 #187

Define bonkers... Oktober May 2015 #193

You don't know when ann--- May 2015 #203

So if you don't know what will set someone off... Oktober May 2015 #218

It seems to me, that someone mentioned in another thread, just that sort of thing, in Iran. beevul May 2015 #246

and they're not? Churches are destroyed regularly in muslim dominated countries samsingh May 2015 #293

This site is mind-numbing at times... Inkfreak May 2015 #204

FWIW: Have you seen the winning cartoon? I just did a bing search and found this ---> Petrushka May 2015 #392

Geller is Jewish, don't really think she cares about Jesus all that much. Ikonoklast May 2015 #263

"a contest to see who could create the most hideous and hate-filled cartoon..." oberliner May 2015 #302

She's nothing but a cowardly shit stir-er notadmblnd May 2015 #162

How exactly does one hide behind an inalienable right? Oktober May 2015 #197

She used that as her excuse to exploit the ignorance and hatred of both Muslims and bigots notadmblnd May 2015 #419

One word answer: Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #429

One doesn't "hide" behind it... Inkfreak May 2015 #207

+100 840high May 2015 #254

I agree. BayouBengal07 May 2015 #245

^^^ This. N/T beevul May 2015 #247

+1 n/t X_Digger May 2015 #383

No she's not. uncleverusername May 2015 #328

I disagree. I never called her "pretty" or a "girl." Orsino May 2015 #414

Well she would be... SomethingFishy May 2015 #432

OMG! She's been reading DU. cbayer May 2015 #2

I know, I posted that analogy yesterday :) snooper2 May 2015 #6

You posted the analogy that she is like the pretty girl getting blamed for being raped? cbayer May 2015 #15

I do. PeaceNikki May 2015 #18

If somebody is assaulted by default they are a victim snooper2 May 2015 #20

Well, where we differ is that I don't think she went to a bar in a mini dress. cbayer May 2015 #26

She was not assaulted jberryhill May 2015 #29

Indeed, she only benefits from the attack. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #39

+1000 Erich! JustAnotherGen May 2015 #58

Wrong place. sorry. cbayer May 2015 #40

But she was shot at LittleBlue May 2015 #106

She was? Did she have to duck? Did bullets whiz by her head? Was she in the same room, even? GoneFishin May 2015 #133

Except she wasn't the victim. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #186

sounds like the same argument samsingh May 2015 #290

Except she wasn't assaulted. She got someone else shot. SomethingFishy May 2015 #433

You don't? What if a gay couple goes into a VERY RW town where a Jesus/homophobic rally is happening PeaceNikki May 2015 #50

They are most certainly victims and victims of a hate crime. cbayer May 2015 #54

It doesn't matter "what prompted their action and what they thought might happen." PeaceNikki May 2015 #65

I disagree, it does matter. cbayer May 2015 #85

We agree on one thing: Geller is a total fuckwad PeaceNikki May 2015 #88

Yes she is. cbayer May 2015 #90

How is your position any different than "dressed like a provocative slut, deserved what she got"? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #122

A personal expression of love vs. intentionally seeking to provoke violence to serve your agenda. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #56

But maybe the gay couple just met and they are just doing it to piss off the assholes. PeaceNikki May 2015 #66

And Pam Geller is who in your little analogy? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #75

You don't see the slippery slope you support? PeaceNikki May 2015 #79

No, seriously. Explain to me how Pam Geller is the victim here. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #81

No seriously, you don't see the slippery slope you support? Not even a little? PeaceNikki May 2015 #83

This post is about Pam Geller comparing herself to a rape victim. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #92

.... "blathering" PeaceNikki May 2015 #158

Yeah, nice. So tell me again how Pam Geller is the victim here? nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #174

Why? So you we can keep bickering? Fuck it. You're not interested in discussing like an adult. PeaceNikki May 2015 #196

You haven't discussed anything. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #199

k PeaceNikki May 2015 #216

How is she the victim? oberliner May 2015 #361

My God, you're right. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #402

I respectfully dispute your analogy oberliner May 2015 #406

In your scenario, had there been past instances of violence over drawing Bush? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #410

I get what you are saying oberliner May 2015 #415

I don't disagree. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #416

Good point oberliner May 2015 #417

They don't want to, but you're spot on. (nt) Inkfreak May 2015 #214

you are very patient with someone who clearly can't understand a simple question samsingh May 2015 #299

Attempted murder Matrosov May 2015 #93

Actually, legally speaking, there's no actual victim of an attempted (read: failed) crime. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #100

um wtf? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #126

Yes, attempted murder is a crime. No shit. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #154

wait - the target of the attempt is not a victim? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #173

In Pamela Geller's case, sure as hell she wasn't. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #175

So your reason why she isn't a victim is becasue Goblinmonger May 2015 #198

Holy strawman, Batman. What? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #205

Well Goblinmonger May 2015 #235

Total bunk. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #237

I hire a hitman to kill my neighbor. AngryAmish May 2015 #212

I had to do a doubletake too. beevul May 2015 #304

The mob didn't violently attack them. The mob violently attacked someone else. jeff47 May 2015 #87

I know - but not for lack of trying! PeaceNikki May 2015 #89

And that's relevant, how? jeff47 May 2015 #98

You don't? Goblinmonger May 2015 #112

Yes, are you saying you don't? Humanist_Activist May 2015 #271

Then go ahead and get horrified, because if someone intentionally tries to entrap another person cbayer May 2015 #276

Oh, wow, entrapped into rape? Didn't know you were an MRA. n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #312

That's because I'm not an MRA. The description is clearly about entrapment cbayer May 2015 #313

Do you even know what entrapment is? Let me put it this way... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #315

Let me repeat the scenario for you with the important words highlighted in order cbayer May 2015 #318

Its still not entrapment unless you think she created the idea of being raped by... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #319

She hopes to be assaulted. She is creating a scenario which she hopes will cbayer May 2015 #320

Just like women who wear skirts that are too short when leaving a club at 3 AM... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #321

Women who wear short skirts leaving a club at 3AM don't hope to be assaulted. cbayer May 2015 #322

That's your assumption, not mine, I'm not the rape apologist here. n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #326

Actually you might be. You think a woman can wear a skirt that is "too short". cbayer May 2015 #329

You apparently have a threshold of "naked" trying to figure out where you draw the line. n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #333

How do you know what they "hope" or don't?? PeaceNikki May 2015 #337

OMG. You do know that we are discussing a very specific scenario in which the words cbayer May 2015 #352

Attack?? I'm having a discussion with you. Where did I attack? PeaceNikki May 2015 #355

OK, maybe that's a strong word. But you are going back and forth with another member cbayer May 2015 #360

BTW, what is your definition of a skirt that is too short? cbayer May 2015 #323

I'm don't have a standard there, a woman should be able to walk around, buck ass naked... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #330

No, actually, I totally agree with you. cbayer May 2015 #336

So where the fuck is the entrapment? n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #338

The non victim is "hoping" for it. PeaceNikki May 2015 #341

It is very fucked up. n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #343

And cbayer is the one who decides whether the alleged victim is really a victim or not. PeaceNikki May 2015 #346

see post #352 cbayer May 2015 #354

See post 353 PeaceNikki May 2015 #356

353? cbayer May 2015 #362

As long as they aren't "hoping" for it? So weird. PeaceNikki May 2015 #340

Who is responsible for coming to the conclusion whether one is a real victim or not? PeaceNikki May 2015 #331

That's a good and reasonable question. cbayer May 2015 #344

You ignored the rest of my reply. Who decides? PeaceNikki May 2015 #350

Ok, let's finalize this. I would always, always, always assume that in a case of cbayer May 2015 #359

This message was self-deleted by its author PeaceNikki May 2015 #363

You know, if someone actually and consciously sets up an assault, that's cbayer May 2015 #364

You aren't the decider of who the "real victims" are is the point. PeaceNikki May 2015 #366

We are talking about a scenario in which the person is already identified as hoping for an action. cbayer May 2015 #367

Nice try. beam me up scottie May 2015 #375

Seriously, you need to work on your comparisons, jumping in front of a moving car? Humanist_Activist May 2015 #369

Jump in front of a hard dick? Oh, my. I think I need my fainting couch. cbayer May 2015 #370

You are judging victims by what you believe they wanted to happen. beam me up scottie May 2015 #372

Let me put it this way, she wouldn't have total control over the situation... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #373

Not just expected, hoped that they would assault her. cbayer May 2015 #376

Again, how do you determine who is and who is not a real victim... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #377

Oh my god HA. This is my opinion. cbayer May 2015 #379

"This is my opinion." So? Does that excuse you from being wrong? Humanist_Activist May 2015 #382

For the last time YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHO IS AND ISN'T A VICTIM beam me up scottie May 2015 #371

Has it occured to you that there are victims kcr May 2015 #411

A person who intentionally wants a specific result and gets that specific result is not a victim. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #413

i do. and anyone who doesn't is very sick samsingh May 2015 #296

Oh, dear. You think Pamela Geller is a hero. I wouldn't be so quick to call others sick, cbayer May 2015 #298

you're not me. i'm so happy about that. samsingh May 2015 #301

That makes two of us. cbayer May 2015 #303

Rapes are committed by individuals. This attack was committed by individuals. lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #422

Could very well be or having her goons read it.... AuntPatsy May 2015 #28

Yep. Because that lame rape analogy has really got legs here on DU. cbayer May 2015 #41

No it is an analogy that you cannot come up with a coherent response to other than "is not". Warren Stupidity May 2015 #127

LOL. nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #60

I don't like Pam Geller MosheFeingold May 2015 #111

Pam Geller did us a service? Are you serious? "Have at it, Ms. Geller"? cbayer May 2015 #115

I'm sorry I am not clear MosheFeingold May 2015 #130

Ok, that completely changes what I thought you meant and I appreciate cbayer May 2015 #143

Or she herself is on DU! mainer May 2015 #117

In fact, I think I just read a post that could possibly be her. cbayer May 2015 #119

She must have read the people who flamed my post RandySF May 2015 #494

The rightwing persecution complex rages on... JaneyVee May 2015 #3

Masters of Victimhood and Resentment. Fred Sanders May 2015 #11

when gunmen try to shoot you persecution is manifest Warren Stupidity May 2015 #46

Gunmen didn't try shooting her. JaneyVee May 2015 #51

So if they hadn't had been stopped, they would have...... Goblinmonger May 2015 #113

yeah, but they shot a security guard who doesn't count I guess. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #129

If this had been a Code Pink event Goblinmonger May 2015 #146

So she's a victim because a guy hired to protect her got shot? n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #497

Everyone at the event were targets. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #499

Problem was, not everyone was a willful target. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #501

"Hi Welcome to my victimhood event! Please hold still while I paint a target on your back." n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #502

Seriously? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #505

Compromised ethical system? lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #506

I was referring to persecution complex, not victim card. JaneyVee May 2015 #161

That mayor is an idiot for saying what he did. GGJohn May 2015 #4

yes. she. did. she deliberately chose the exact same place cali May 2015 #9

You're so right. How people can defend that knuckle-dragging right winger who puts innocent lives in danger is beyond me. InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #110

when we had the crazy do that with the koran here in amarillo, national news, we called him out. seabeyond May 2015 #10

We can have both and we should denounce her hate filled rhetoric, GGJohn May 2015 #13

of course she is to blame. that is her purpose and intent. why wouldnt we be honest. seabeyond May 2015 #22

She intentionally created a very volatile situation. KittyWampus May 2015 #47

there is an expectation for public venues to provide adequate safety. Knowingly holding an exhibit KittyWampus May 2015 #19

Failing to provide adequate security? cbayer May 2015 #44

You are probably correct. But one of the deceased might have a case. KittyWampus May 2015 #45

I think the only deceased are the gunmen and I don't think anyone is cbayer May 2015 #48

I am speaking theoretically. And pointing out liability goes further than legal. KittyWampus May 2015 #52

I understand. I hope that in the future towns will refuse to host events cbayer May 2015 #55

And when ultra-red areas of the country Goblinmonger May 2015 #120

I disagree with your hoped for results of this event. justhanginon May 2015 #141

That's a good point. cbayer May 2015 #145

Thats not enough. And thats the point you and so many others seem to miss. beevul May 2015 #249

None of this Free Speech martyrdom schtick means that Geller's the actual victim here. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #255

I don't miss the point at all. cbayer May 2015 #256

So, Wendy Davis' whole campaign would be too dangerous here in Texas, no? X_Digger May 2015 #386

Yes she did.... AuntPatsy May 2015 #30

No, she's not right. She's not a victim of any crime whatsoever jberryhill May 2015 #31

Why "pretty" girl? Richardo May 2015 #5

Because she's an asshole PeaceNikki May 2015 #16

Touche Richardo May 2015 #17

+1 ScreamingMeemie May 2015 #23

Only because she brought it up would I say this... randome May 2015 #21

RW idea that even rapists are looking for a beauty treestar May 2015 #170

No, you are morally liable for instigating it. You're an instigator, a provocateur. KittyWampus May 2015 #7

If a Christian extremist had bombed the gallery displaying "Piss Christ" (a crucifix in piss), Nye Bevan May 2015 #24

Possibly, & the gallery might've been liable f/ not having adequate security. KittyWampus May 2015 #37

"Piss Christ" was a protest against the commercialization of religious icons. trotsky May 2015 #74

What did they teach at University about criticism of art you have not seen? Bluenorthwest May 2015 #94

As I plainly stated, I never bothered to care about Serrano. I gave a first glance impression. KittyWampus May 2015 #114

How far will you go? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #132

But that is different seveneyes May 2015 #84

They have. It's been vandalized by Christian extremists. Starry Messenger May 2015 #155

If only all religious extremists would do nothing worse than hit a photo with a hammer (nt) Nye Bevan May 2015 #384

Provocation for the sake of provocation is not a trait of a pretty girl. Geller is a really now just Fred Sanders May 2015 #8

Agree n/t UTUSN May 2015 #32

She plays the victim card of a right wing religious extremist, complete lovemydog May 2015 #57

Exactly. What a false equivalent she's making. n/t deutsey May 2015 #178

The pretty girl can't help being pretty... ScreamingMeemie May 2015 #12

A lot of political headway has been made. Half-Century Man May 2015 #14

That's absurd - she is not a crime victim jberryhill May 2015 #25

So if you had a friend at a gay marriage protest Goblinmonger May 2015 #123

The no longer pretty girl has been asking to have her ass kicked for many years. elleng May 2015 #33

Since she's a far RW nutjob, I guess that means all of the people on DU saying the same thing are Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #35

How many DUers foolishly defending Geller have used that same line? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #36

"two idiots fell for your trap" melman May 2015 #53

So in your mind is it impossible that in any situation two different parties may share the blame? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #71

As in 'took the bait' AgingAmerican May 2015 #72

With intent, she successfully baited the lowest common denominators among us. LanternWaste May 2015 #38

And she's a coward for not admitting it. She's a coward and a liar. KittyWampus May 2015 #43

No one should be critical of Fox News lies for the same reason. gordianot May 2015 #49

a truly delusional wanna be cult leader/dictator olddots May 2015 #61

She poked a hornets nest with a stick AgingAmerican May 2015 #62

Cue the people who don't understand a metaphor. nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #63

A metaphor is a comparison Goblinmonger May 2015 #124

Yes, because people, like bees, sharks and bears can do NOTHING to control their reaction to stimuli PeaceNikki May 2015 #70

And cue Post 63. nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #76

I understand metaphors, I just call bullshit on it. There's a difference. PeaceNikki May 2015 #80

Her only regret AgingAmerican May 2015 #78

I know, she's a total fucking asshole. We all agree on that. PeaceNikki May 2015 #82

Yes, because humans are alway rational. And human behavior can't be manipulated. LOL KittyWampus May 2015 #374

She went home with that guy she didn't know... MellowDem May 2015 #180

Even if only two of the hornets in the nest took the bait, it's enough to blame the entire nest. n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #423

She's not pretty. nt bemildred May 2015 #64

Oh god, here we go again. justiceischeap May 2015 #67

Coward. randome May 2015 #73

Are we men or are we mice? I like cheese. justiceischeap May 2015 #77

That depends entirely on WHY the girl was pretty. DetlefK May 2015 #68

who's 'the pretty girl'? spanone May 2015 #69

If I were to post the following on DU as a real comment justiceischeap May 2015 #86

Thats analogous to the venue not renting her space, not people trying to kill her. eom mr_liberal May 2015 #96

so to be clear, Salmon Rushdie is responsible for the attacks against him, Charlie Hedbo is Warren Stupidity May 2015 #137

Language comes with responsibility in my opinion, yes. justiceischeap May 2015 #149

well at least you are consistent in your victim blaming. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #183

How is she a victim? justiceischeap May 2015 #192

Victim? Geller is not a victim, provocateurs are not victims. Fred Sanders May 2015 #305

She's no Charlie Hebdo. lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #425

because this wasn't about "berating", this was people with guns intending to kill people. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #380

I don't really see what the difference is LittleBlue May 2015 #102

Women who are raped do not want to be raped. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #105

The victim's intent is irrelevant, she's still a victim. LittleBlue May 2015 #108

Nobody can seem to answer me. How was she victimized? frylock May 2015 #121

Her group was shot at LittleBlue May 2015 #151

Her group was not shot at.. frylock May 2015 #153

Begging the question. In order for a specific person to be a victim.... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #172

By most definitions Sgent May 2015 #509

Was she anywhere close to the line of fire? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #510

Fair enough Sgent May 2015 #514

So Geller wanted to be shot. Is that your claim? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #138

Geller wanted a violent reaction to her event so she could have a bully pulpit about evil Islam. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #181

Suppose a woman dresses "provocatively" because she likes the reaction. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #190

So a woman would literally want to be raped? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #195

No. Not what I said. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #206

If a woman dresses provocatively only for the intention of being looked at then that's her intention Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #220

Your claim is that Geller wanted a reaction and got one. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #223

Not just any reaction, she wanted a violent reaction. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #225

Touch�. Your logic is impeccable...it all leads to provocateurs being unable to claim victimhood. Fred Sanders May 2015 #427

Of course not. That's why she created an "event" - human shields. n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #426

She's right of course... MellowDem May 2015 #116

How was Geller victimized? frylock May 2015 #118

Because her event was targeted by terrorists... MellowDem May 2015 #125

And that's just like being raped? frylock May 2015 #128

Well, it's like her old schoolmate who she only bumps into at reunions was raped. But it's the GoneFishin May 2015 #136

Who said it was? MellowDem May 2015 #139

No, we aren't ann--- May 2015 #144

Offensive speech is risky... MellowDem May 2015 #152

No, she should be blamed for hate speech ann--- May 2015 #167

She can be blamed for hate speech.. MellowDem May 2015 #168

I didn't see anyone ann--- May 2015 #191

There have been some... MellowDem May 2015 #200

Just like blaming ann--- May 2015 #208

I've come to the conclusion that, just like with Hedbo, this discussion is useless. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #210

Who said it was? SHE DID! frylock May 2015 #150

People blaming her are using rape apologist reasoning MellowDem May 2015 #156

What the actual fuck?!! frylock May 2015 #164

Yeah, she's going after the logic... MellowDem May 2015 #171

why don't you run that past an actual victim of rape.. frylock May 2015 #177

Why? MellowDem May 2015 #185

I'm sure it does to you. frylock May 2015 #194

It's a straw man... MellowDem May 2015 #202

we have established that, and we're done here. frylock May 2015 #211

If she had said ann--- May 2015 #232

No, they are not. kcr May 2015 #412

You're using the exact same logic... MellowDem May 2015 #431

If someone actually desires to be a target, they don't get to be victims. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #435

Is there any evidence she desired to be a target? MellowDem May 2015 #436

Sure there is. You honestly don't think she chose Garland at random, do you? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #437

Victims of terror... MellowDem May 2015 #438

No one here is justifying the shootings. No one. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #439

People were blaming her... MellowDem May 2015 #440

Are you aware that it is possible for more than one party to be at blame for a wrong? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #441

Not when it comes to violence... MellowDem May 2015 #452

But you keep putting the victim label on Geller and she's not a victim. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #498

You don't know that Geller wanted an attack... MellowDem May 2015 #503

The signs are quite obvious. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #507

Whether she wanted an attempt made... MellowDem May 2015 #508

But if her victimhood status is irrelevant, your analogy automatically fails. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #511

Not at all... MellowDem May 2015 #513

You're twisting yourself in knots to try to defend someone not worth defending. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #515

It's not defending Geller's views... MellowDem May 2015 #516

But you are defending her as an innocent "victim" to all of this. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #517

Even if she's not a victim... MellowDem May 2015 #520

That's not all she did. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #522

What you are essentially saying... MellowDem May 2015 #528

But they didn't just attack her. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #529

Other people went there intentionally... MellowDem May 2015 #530

They didn't go there intentionally to want to be injured or killed. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #531

This was free speech... MellowDem May 2015 #532

How does it not matter if I think a person is a bigoted asshole? kcr May 2015 #444

It doesn't matter when it comes to blame... MellowDem May 2015 #453

It's not a trait or characteristic. It's action. kcr May 2015 #455

You said bigoted asshole... MellowDem May 2015 #457

Yes. Deliberate action. kcr May 2015 #458

Not at all... MellowDem May 2015 #466

How does it not matter? kcr May 2015 #468

You can still think she's a piece of shit... MellowDem May 2015 #473

Blaming her for the violence is blaming her for her part in it. kcr May 2015 #476

She had as much of a part in it... MellowDem May 2015 #483

Oh, no. kcr May 2015 #484

What if they were hoping for a violent reaction... MellowDem May 2015 #487

It depends kcr May 2015 #488

Because violence is never an excuse... MellowDem May 2015 #490

Really? Have to strongly disagree there. kcr May 2015 #491

Against nonviolent expression? MellowDem May 2015 #492

They aren't only lending her credence, they were promoting this idea before cbayer May 2015 #159

and now they're parsing her remarks and saying that's not what she meant frylock May 2015 #165

I just read an article on Breitbart that could have been written from material on DU cbayer May 2015 #169

I'm with you 200% ann--- May 2015 #213

People outside the event were victimized. Was Geller even there? randome May 2015 #131

I'm not sure if she was... MellowDem May 2015 #142

Well, Geller's the one equating what happened to rape. randome May 2015 #176

She comparing the logic that blames.. MellowDem May 2015 #182

Violence is always the ann--- May 2015 #140

Blaming Geller for the violence... MellowDem May 2015 #147

I did not blame Geller for the violence committed by the shooters ann--- May 2015 #217

This is like the paperboy who used to tease the neighbors dog. gordianot May 2015 #179

There's a problem with the analogy... MellowDem May 2015 #188

So was the dog he did not try to bite me. gordianot May 2015 #201

Animals aren't responsible for their actions... MellowDem May 2015 #209

I tend to agree the owner is at fault. gordianot May 2015 #228

excuse number 37: muslims have no self control. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #215

Sharks, dogs, hornets.. muslims.. X_Digger May 2015 #388

Metaphors are lost on the weak, obviously. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #401

Metaphors that have inconvenient associations fly right past some, apparently. X_Digger May 2015 #461

What you'd be talking about is an analogy. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #496

An inherent danger because they deal with non-thinking animals. Fucking duh. X_Digger May 2015 #518

You know, I tried. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #521

"--Muslims, sharks, aliens, whatever--" -- and you double down. Priceless. X_Digger May 2015 #523

Do you get it? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #524

Yes, comparing an act that provokes a thoughtless creature to an act that offends a person. X_Digger May 2015 #526

So yeah, you're deliberately being obtuse. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #527

And cute post 70. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #189

Pam Geller is not pretty Omaha Steve May 2015 #134

No, she is a hatemonger that got exactly what she wa hoping to get LondonReign2 May 2015 #148

Intent matters. Mz Pip May 2015 #157

I think there's a difference treestar May 2015 #166

A few years ago, a group affiliated with Stormfront murielm99 May 2015 #219

More like "drunk asshole mouthed off and got punched in the face" Scootaloo May 2015 #222

Actually more like a drunk asshole mouthed off and the person next to them gets punched in the face. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #227

this is a far better analogy frylock May 2015 #242

^^^THIS^^^ Tom Ripley May 2015 #339

Well golly gee.... 99Forever May 2015 #230

i hate her but in this very specific instance i dont think she is wrong La Lioness Priyanka May 2015 #236

It's not about justifying shooting people. It's about Pam Geller playing the victim card Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #239

i thought she was making an analogy about the shooting, not her specifically. La Lioness Priyanka May 2015 #240

Amen. 840high May 2015 #253

Except that she's actually an ugly prostitute of hate! ananda May 2015 #238

It's called an analogy. Quantess May 2015 #241

better analogy.. frylock May 2015 #243

Well, you're actually arguing it's a metaphor. The problem is.... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #244

For what? A Mohammed coloring contest? Quantess May 2015 #260

Yes, it's ridiculous that it provoked people to violence, but Geller knew that it would.... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #262

So it's all about her, then. All about the coloring contest. Quantess May 2015 #274

I never said it was all about her. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #285

But it really is all about her, all about the coloring contest. Quantess May 2015 #300

Is it that crazy to say that they are both wrong? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #307

One party is lopsidedly more wrong here, and I hope we can agree on which. Quantess May 2015 #311

Why does this have to be a contest? cbayer May 2015 #316

"Coloring contest", as in, who can depict the best/worst Mohammed. (no text) Quantess May 2015 #325

I fear you missed my point. I was talking about the percent of responsibility contest (nt) cbayer May 2015 #334

You're not reading what I'm writing. I'm saying they are both in the wrong. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #398

........ Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #250

A whole hell of a lot of people thought what Martin Luther King said was offensive. trotsky May 2015 #257

You know..........Why the hell not? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #258

I don't think MLK and Geller are a thing alike. trotsky May 2015 #261

King didn't want violence. Geller did. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #264

How do you know that? trotsky May 2015 #266

How do I know what? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #267

How do you know Geller wanted violence? trotsky May 2015 #275

Geller specifically chose Garland as the venue for the event. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #278

And MLK spoke throughout the racist South. trotsky May 2015 #282

It's an extremely shitty comparision to begin with. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #287

I agree that one person is admirable and the other is despicable, and have not insisted otherwise. trotsky May 2015 #289

It depends on the ultimate goal. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #292

Who gets to determine how noble the goal is? trotsky May 2015 #297

Humanity will. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #306

It must be super cool to read so deeply into the hearts and minds of people like they can. PeaceNikki May 2015 #317

No kidding! trotsky May 2015 #397

If you want to be the one to go to bat for Pam Geller here, hey, be my guest. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #400

blather, blather, blather, blather PeaceNikki May 2015 #403

Well, clearly you felt the need to respond to me. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #404

lol, you never answered the question I asked you first. PeaceNikki May 2015 #405

I actually asked you my question before that, but hey, I'm a nice guy so I'll indulge. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #407

heh. speaking of blathering... PeaceNikki May 2015 #428

Lovely. Very lovely. So your inability to answer my question either means.... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #430

Lol! rug May 2015 #314

She has gotten what she wants twice; violence and attention. I'm going to do what I do liberal_at_heart May 2015 #259

Geller doesn't realize that she is also a savage Renew Deal May 2015 #277

i hate the atlast shrugs stuff, but geller may have saved lives samsingh May 2015 #280

Hey, hold on there while I get you some pom-poms for Pamela Geller. cbayer May 2015 #294

Yes. I mean, she'd be just as much a hero if 20 other innocent people died in the attack, right? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #309

How caste-like of you. In reality, people can and do change. closeupready May 2015 #445

the obvious fact is that this guy didn't samsingh May 2015 #447

I have no words Blue_In_AK May 2015 #281

But she's a hero!! Just see the post above you. cbayer May 2015 #295

Right. Blue_In_AK May 2015 #324

I hope you know that I was being sarcastic. cbayer May 2015 #327

Oh, of course. Blue_In_AK May 2015 #335

You had it handed to you LeftOfWest May 2015 #396

I have no idea what she means, all I know is she is an asshole for trying to get people killed. Rex May 2015 #365

Ugly is as ugly does... MineralMan May 2015 #368

I think we should be a little bit concerned for Ms. Geller Jack Rabbit May 2015 #378

Geller demonstrates the limits of poor analogy. lovemydog May 2015 #385

No, dear; he didn't say that at all jmowreader May 2015 #395

all these people here heaven05 May 2015 #420

LOL - some DUers had the same sickening meme Skittles May 2015 #448

I won't get into whether she's responsible or not...but her anology is incorrect joeybee12 May 2015 #449

That's what someone right here on DU wrote in response to a post of mine, RandySF May 2015 #493

This message was self-deleted by its author RandySF May 2015 #495

First of all, there was no excuse for the violence LeftishBrit May 2015 #504

I'm saying she lured two men to their deaths and gloats about it. nt Hekate May 2015 #512

Hekate, I usually like your posts, but that is horseshit Ex Lurker May 2015 #534

Actually, she did say she want to lure them to violence. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #535

Geller is an idiot. bobjacksonk2832 May 2015 #525