General Discussion

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)

148. here's some math

Sat May 9, 2015, 01:38 AM

May 2015

what I know locally.

Catholic social services - hosts the local homeless shelter
local domestic violence organization - founded and run by a nun
welcome central - informational about local social services, provides rides and other assistance - founded and run by a nun
free medical clinic - heavily supported (if not founded) by the Sisters of Charity
yes, they own several school buildings, but presumably education is a social positive
they also own several church buildings (I would agree with Ben Franklin about the positive effects of going to church)

Seems to me their organization does a whole lot of good locally.

Also, I rather doubt that Joseph Smith's disappearing tablets, Mohammed levitating, or Jesus coming back from the dead are really essential to ANY of those religions.

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So last month HBO ran a documentary about a religion. They portrayed the central figure of that [View all] Warren DeMontague May 2015 OP

Forget the religion part, most if not all in scientolgy dont pretend it is a religion NoJusticeNoPeace May 2015 #1

No the religion part of it is critical Kurska May 2015 #3

I see, it all depends on whether it's a "real" religion or not. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #8

recommend samsingh May 2015 #30

Because it isn't a "sincerely held faith" starroute May 2015 #33

I think if you really want to go down the road of separating "genuine religions" from con jobs Warren DeMontague May 2015 #35

So do you believe *all* religion is a con job? starroute May 2015 #37

The Roman Catholic Church is ostensibly based upon a guy who said "give your stuff to the poor" Warren DeMontague May 2015 #40

If anything Scientology is more honest about it Major Nikon May 2015 #98

here's some math hfojvt May 2015 #148

I suppose it depends on who you ask, from those religions. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #149

Here's some more math Major Nikon May 2015 #167

Read the New Testament, Jesus was an "end of times" Jewish preacher who ... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #109

If you don't read the Bible with the eyes of faith, Damansarajaya May 2015 #184

I'm sorry, that's completely nonsensical. Humanist_Activist May 2015 #205

Break out of the cage of narrow logic. Damansarajaya May 2015 #213

To build off that lovely quote, faith is stiff and inflexible... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #220

... SidDithers May 2015 #208

Wow, look up the origins of every religion. phil89 May 2015 #104

All religions are con jobs from the start. nt valerief May 2015 #176

I could make the same argument about ANY religion. Christianity didn't Exilednight May 2015 #206

Is it how you hold your mouth when you say it? X_Digger May 2015 #11

lolwut? JaneyVee May 2015 #2

Seems like several other people understood what I meant. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #7

That is totally different because words. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #4

Oscar nominee 'Deliver Us From Evil' about the Catholic scandals Bluenorthwest May 2015 #5

Sometimes I see stuff from people who call themselves "progressives" that blows me right away. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #13

On the wrong side of heaven seveneyes May 2015 #6

The difference between Going Clear and Pamela Geller justiceischeap May 2015 #9

...okay, so what she does in not constitutionally protected under the 1st Amendment? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #12

I absolutely agree that she's obnoxious and, I think, dangerous justiceischeap May 2015 #14

I agree with some of what you've said. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #15

I saw the docu justiceischeap May 2015 #16

And yet, it was Mohammed CARTOONS that drew the violent response, both here and at Charlie Hebdo. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #17

Yep, and we've known this is often the type of reaction to these cartoons justiceischeap May 2015 #18

Radical Muslims aren't bears. Kurska May 2015 #20

This PeaceNikki May 2015 #21

proving once again Warren DeMontague May 2015 #22

Aww shucks Kurska May 2015 #24

Do folks miss the de-humanizing that such analogies encourage? Or is it intentional? X_Digger May 2015 #25

I'm sorry you didn't like my bear analogy justiceischeap May 2015 #43

I've also seen a shark analogy used here. Another reason these animal analogies fail is -- Nuclear Unicorn May 2015 #209

Yep, and we've known this is often the type of reaction to these cartoons justiceischeap May 2015 #18

So if Muslims are 'the bear' and thus too dangerous to 'poke' what message are you sending to other Bluenorthwest May 2015 #23

you make excellent points. thank you samsingh May 2015 #31

yes, but as someone else pointed out- Charlie Hebdo ridiculed all religions equally notadmblnd May 2015 #32

true, but we had pretty much the same identical discussions here, after Charlie Hebdo. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #34

there are some rights that the 1st amendment does not guarantee notadmblnd May 2015 #46

And people keep trying to make that argument, which is disturbing. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #48

This ^ PeaceNikki May 2015 #51

I did not call for her arrest or for her to be charged with a crime. notadmblnd May 2015 #60

And I never said "the First Amendment is absolute", so you were disputing a point no one made. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #62

no, I was not suggesting she knew a cartoon would piss peope off notadmblnd May 2015 #85

Like I said, that would probably have to be a civil suit, filed BY the attendees in question. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #93

But not by the injured security officer. Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #97

"fighting words" - that exception has been narrowed down to almost nothing. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #54

And saying "I'll draw an offensive cartoon tomorrow"- isn't very imminent. ;) X_Digger May 2015 #115

Every time someone plays "itchycoo park" on the radio, they are telling people to "Get HI-IIGH!!" Warren DeMontague May 2015 #132

Actually no, they didn't CrawlingChaos May 2015 #168

Perhaps I should have not used the word "equally". So I'll give you that notadmblnd May 2015 #238

"Charlie Hebdo ridiculed all religions equally" Nuclear Unicorn May 2015 #210

Actually the majority of CH's cartoons were aimed at politicians and culture wars riderinthestorm May 2015 #212

That seems like a direct description of Scientologists' beliefs starroute May 2015 #38

They're laughing about the beliefs, as they describe them. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #41

yeah edhopper May 2015 #10

Sauce For the Goose HassleCat May 2015 #26

Live by the sword seveneyes May 2015 #27

All fair points Aerows May 2015 #28

What if some extremist Republicans threatened to kill anyone who makes fun of Jeb Bush? oberliner May 2015 #76

Threatening isn't the same as actually Aerows May 2015 #90

Thanks for sharing your thoughts oberliner May 2015 #92

Neither approach Aerows May 2015 #95

I think it is moral and ethical to criticize religious fundamentalism oberliner May 2015 #100

kick samsingh May 2015 #29

I'm staying out of this one. Who wants some butter? Initech May 2015 #36

I would say in before "not a real religion" LostOne4Ever May 2015 #39

Yeah, I hear you. the hypocrisy gets to me, sometimes. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #42

Did the folk who made that doco advocate genocide against adherents of that religion? Violet_Crumble May 2015 #44

Im not defending pamela geller. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #45

"it was the cartoons. In both cases" jberryhill May 2015 #52

I just googled "prize winning cartoon Garland Texas" and they come up riderinthestorm May 2015 #61

I know you aren't. It's just that's one obvious difference I saw... Violet_Crumble May 2015 #53

Is there a difference between "people shouldn't be allowed to" and "people should choose not to" el_bryanto May 2015 #47

I am addressing legal arguments, which I have seen made repeatedly. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #49

OK - then on a strictly legal matter Geller should be allowed to say whatever she likes. el_bryanto May 2015 #50

Fun fact... Oktober May 2015 #187

Nods - many people think that - I don't as I am religious. el_bryanto May 2015 #226

Did HBO run the documentary for the intended purposes of provoking Scientologists to violence? Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #55

I'm a Southern Baptist, so my religious beliefs are often ridiculed. NaturalHigh May 2015 #56

I am a Catholic - after 840high May 2015 #147

God that's tiresome. I have to assume that you have never bothered to look at the work of Andres Bluenorthwest May 2015 #155

I'm familiar with his work. Each 840high May 2015 #156

All religions are not alike. Damansarajaya May 2015 #57

So; Fundamentalists who think they have a mandate from the sky to kill cartoonists Warren DeMontague May 2015 #63

Bad, no doubt. But the need to provoke such individuals Damansarajaya May 2015 #65

Provocation is in the eye of the beholder. Every single attacker who ever attached anyone anywhere PeaceNikki May 2015 #67

Yes, I said that too. Damansarajaya May 2015 #72

Agree. Many organized religions treat me as a second class citizen or worse. PeaceNikki May 2015 #73

It's too bad that's the world we live in right now, but my denomination, the Episcopalians Damansarajaya May 2015 #78

I'm not asking you to do anything. You're asking others to stop mocking and ridiculing people whose PeaceNikki May 2015 #80

Would I personally do it? No. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #71

I lived in a Muslim country for three years. Hence my nickname. Damansarajaya May 2015 #75

So write HBO and criticize them for making fun of Xenu. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #77

I'll stop ridiculing organized religion when they stop threatening my autonomy. PeaceNikki May 2015 #79

Religions don't get to make rules for people outside of their religion oberliner May 2015 #84

This is rather a shit-stirring thread, is it not? Damansarajaya May 2015 #58

Yeah, it's a major distraction from the peaceful GD banter between the Hillary and Bernie people Warren DeMontague May 2015 #64

It's been a positive love-fest compared to Hillary vs Obama Damansarajaya May 2015 #66

Bear in mind that it is only May. Of 2015. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #68

"money-making corporation that uses the religious cult as its business model" FLPanhandle May 2015 #70

It most certainly does not, heh. Damansarajaya May 2015 #81

Holy shit. Those hospital takeovers are not a good thing for women, you know. PeaceNikki May 2015 #82

No kidding. beam me up scottie May 2015 #87

When was the last time you heard of an atheist institution lobbying against women's rights? beam me up scottie May 2015 #86

Atheist equivalent of Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King, Jr., or Benjamin Tutu? LostOne4Ever May 2015 #94

There's so many, it's hard to limit the list isn't it? I'd add Andrei Sakharov riderinthestorm May 2015 #105

Christopher Hitchens? mwrguy May 2015 #152

Seriously, about Mother Theresa. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #124

Not unlike Pope Frank. PeaceNikki May 2015 #126

He strikes me as marginally better than the guy who came before him. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #129

He compared teaching gender theory to Nazi propaganda. beam me up scottie May 2015 #133

point taken. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #134

Golda Meir?!!! CrawlingChaos May 2015 #166

Feel free to use one of the other names off my list then. LostOne4Ever May 2015 #174

They want to make all religion bad, when in fact Damansarajaya May 2015 #185

When a religion is based upon text(s) that calls homosexuality an abomination, demands women be LostOne4Ever May 2015 #189

Probably no one punished gays more than the old Soviet Union, Damansarajaya May 2015 #215

LGBT folks have been persecuted EVERYWHERE! Not just the Soviet Union riderinthestorm May 2015 #240

Ah, jeez, I missed that one. beam me up scottie May 2015 #242

Don't forget the outsourcing they are doing to Africa as well. Behind the Aegis May 2015 #243

But this has nothing to do with religion. beam me up scottie May 2015 #245

I have found, when it comes to religion here, it is like Animal Farm... Behind the Aegis May 2015 #246

The double standard is the behemoth in the room. beam me up scottie May 2015 #248

That's a popular belief here among the religion haters. Damansarajaya May 2015 #244

That's a popular belief here among the atheist haters. beam me up scottie May 2015 #247

Yes, and Obama said he was going to renegotiate NAFTA. Damansarajaya May 2015 #249

"Obama"? LMAO! beam me up scottie May 2015 #250

Easily amused, aren't you. Damansarajaya May 2015 #252

What obvious point? That Hitler and Obama both lie? beam me up scottie May 2015 #253

Only if you completely ignore...(lots of links) LostOne4Ever May 2015 #256

Oh my god!! The RCC??! You're putting that corrupt institution up as some paragon of virtue?! riderinthestorm May 2015 #106

Heh, I did mention Mother Theresa . . . Damansarajaya May 2015 #182

Well, "the atheist equivalent of Mother Theresa" would probably be Stalin. mr blur May 2015 #150

Especially the RCC. beam me up scottie May 2015 #83

Why yes it does.... truebrit71 May 2015 #114

You can easily bypass the whole Scientology legitimacy question... Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #88

"And for the record, I do think Scientology is BS." beam me up scottie May 2015 #89

I'm pretty sure I have no desire to see Tom Cruise and Co. shoot up some event. nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #91

Loved that documentary Going Clear. hrmjustin May 2015 #59

You know who also believes in unseen forces that can't be proven? Astrophysicists. Damansarajaya May 2015 #69

Right, and the minute God or Vishnu or Zeus, Ra or Osiris exerts a measurable gravitational Warren DeMontague May 2015 #74

I'm fine with "religion is silly", although indeed it wasn't the point of this thread. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #103

"Trouble is, it can't be perceived with the five senses" - does not mean "can't be proven to exist". Warren Stupidity May 2015 #102

In one week, we've found an "Astrophysics is faith guy" and a "blind watchmaker" guy... Act_of_Reparation May 2015 #112

Give it an hour as they start rolling in from the bars. PeaceNikki May 2015 #135

You seem to know less than nothing about astrophysics, not to mention what you said... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #108

Jesus loves you, man. nt Damansarajaya May 2015 #181

I'm actually surprised they haven't. KamaAina May 2015 #96

False equivalence. KamaAina May 2015 #99

The only people who think Scientology is a religion ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #101

Oh bullshit. beam me up scottie May 2015 #107

According to the DU Sliding Scale of Arbitrary Postmodern Morality... Act_of_Reparation May 2015 #110

LOL! No kidding, imagine NG's outrage if someone claimed islam wasn't a real religion. beam me up scottie May 2015 #111

"Scientology's followers are no more or less religious than any other believers." NanceGreggs May 2015 #113

Do enlighten me, then. Why are they not religious? beam me up scottie May 2015 #116

Yes, because the unprovable flarmfaddle THEY believe in is extra flarmfaddle-ish. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #121

LMAO! beam me up scottie May 2015 #123

Ya know ... NanceGreggs May 2015 #136

"I've known more than a few in my day - they're not about what one believes" beam me up scottie May 2015 #137

NWRT. n/t NanceGreggs May 2015 #139

If you watched the documentary, there are people who DEFINITELY believe in Xenu the way Warren DeMontague May 2015 #138

Ppppppppppppffffffftt PeaceNikki May 2015 #117

Exactly, there is NO NEED TO BASH SCIENTOLGISTS!!! beam me up scottie May 2015 #119

How dare she mock their deeply held beliefs? She just needs a good audit PeaceNikki May 2015 #120

I'm feeling provoked. beam me up scottie May 2015 #122

But are you a bear-shark that will sting when provoked? PeaceNikki May 2015 #125

I'm a loaded gun and she's playing Russian Roulette. beam me up scottie May 2015 #128

You gave me a Bon Jovi earworm. Now I'm feeling prevokrd. PeaceNikki May 2015 #130

That's better than -- Narwhals Narwhals !!! beam me up scottie May 2015 #131

I said Scientology isn't a religion. NanceGreggs May 2015 #140

What other religions are "not real"? Just so we're all clear, you know. PeaceNikki May 2015 #141

Your need to bash only scientolgists is appalling. beam me up scottie May 2015 #142

I said Sceintology isn't a religion. NanceGreggs May 2015 #143

Declaring a religion invalid is bashing it. beam me up scottie May 2015 #144

Yeah. Okay. Whatever, dude. No problemo - you're SO right. n/t NanceGreggs May 2015 #145

Hey, I bash scientology all the time, I just don't bash ONLY scientology. beam me up scottie May 2015 #146

But what fun is that? Damansarajaya May 2015 #183

You might want to think about why you feel such a need to point out, repeatedly, mr blur May 2015 #151

There are independent Scientologist not connected with the Church of Scientology Chathamization May 2015 #153

hey, what the heck? Old and In the Way May 2015 #118

*** Warren DeMontague May 2015 #127

If I put honey in your tea because I think you're allergic to it and it will kill you it's the same Chathamization May 2015 #154

which, in both situations is adulterating someone else's food/drink without their consent or Warren DeMontague May 2015 #157

Well, I suppose if you want to equate attempts to sweeten with attempts to kill. Chathamization May 2015 #158

and yet here you are, comparing the drawing of a cartoon that someone doesnt like Warren DeMontague May 2015 #159

Let's be honest here. In response to the OP, I gave an example of adding honey to a drink Chathamization May 2015 #160

How precisely would you like "intent" to matter, in this case? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #164

No idea why you feel that's being evaded since everyone here seems to agree the attack was terrible Chathamization May 2015 #178

Why is she legally culpable for the fact that OTHER people get pissed off? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #190

You don't get to assault/kill other people and claim you were provoked into doing it. beam me up scottie May 2015 #161

Has anyone on DU, anywhere, argued that it's OK to assault/kill people because they were provoked? Chathamization May 2015 #162

That's your straw man, not what I said. beam me up scottie May 2015 #163

OK, has anyone said that you "get to assault/kill other people and claim you were provoked into Chathamization May 2015 #180

You're right, they're different things. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #195

It doesn't mean that at all. No one seems to be saying that a political cartoonist is liable for Chathamization May 2015 #196

his exact words were "Insulting someone's deity when it is known to cause violence" Warren DeMontague May 2015 #199

Again - when the intent is to incite violence. If you choose to ignore that part, his meaning Chathamization May 2015 #201

It's meaning isn't lost, it's totally clear. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #202

I argue, the posters intent is completely clear, even if you persist in ignoring it Chathamization May 2015 #203

Regarding your last paragraph- Warren DeMontague May 2015 #204

For the nth time, the difference you keep ignoring is the intent to incite violence. Chathamization May 2015 #207

Ive seen people argue that blasphemy or "insulting a deity" should be illegal. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #165

Links to people who've said insulting a deity should be illegal? Because I haven't seen those posts. Chathamization May 2015 #179

Here. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #191

Did you read that post? They're saying that Geller is culpable for trying to incite violence, not Chathamization May 2015 #197

Scientology? JonLP24 May 2015 #169

And if people believe in an interpretation of their religion where they feel shooting people is a valid Warren DeMontague May 2015 #170

As a destructive cult JonLP24 May 2015 #171

This thread reeks CrawlingChaos May 2015 #172

So drawing a cartoon of the deity is demonizing the believers? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #173

You are championing Pamela Gellar's cause CrawlingChaos May 2015 #175

No, I am championing her right to air her noxious-ass views under the 1st Amendment. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #194

I think Gellar would be thrilled with the job you are doing CrawlingChaos May 2015 #227

"you've tried to distort their intentions" beam me up scottie May 2015 #228

Instead of posting silly pictures CrawlingChaos May 2015 #230

Maybe you should look in a mirror. beam me up scottie May 2015 #231

exactly the non-answer I was expecting CrawlingChaos May 2015 #233

I'm saying that a small minority of people HAVE argued her speech is somehow not protected under the Warren DeMontague May 2015 #232

Yeah, um, how'd your poll turn out again? CrawlingChaos May 2015 #235

Turned out great. Exactly as I hoped. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #236

So you're happy that your poll proved your "concern" was misplaced CrawlingChaos May 2015 #241

No, I give the vast majority of Muslims a ton more credit than that. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #251

exactly the side-stepping and obfuscation I was expecting CrawlingChaos May 2015 #254

Side stepping & obfuscation? You're the one pretending this is about everything EXCEPT cartoons. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #255

you seem tense CrawlingChaos May 2015 #257

Oh, give me a break. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #258

So where are the other threads then? CrawlingChaos May 2015 #259

what are you, the thread police? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #260

Simply making an observation CrawlingChaos May 2015 #261

Well, I hope you did your stretching exercises, first. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #262

"keep trying to take apart an argument I'm not making"...ah, who said irony was dead! N/T Chathamization May 2015 #237

It's the shackles of youth. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #239

To hell with freedom. Religious zealots MUST be appeased. Binkie The Clown May 2015 #177

Very inspired! Damansarajaya May 2015 #186

. Binkie The Clown May 2015 #188

What are ya playing right now? Warren DeMontague May 2015 #193

Minecraft, at the moment. hehe n/t Binkie The Clown May 2015 #198

Aw, man. Minecraft is such an amazing phenomenon. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #200

When you were younger? Hell, I'm 70! And I love it. Binkie The Clown May 2015 #219

That's right. And the ACLU was correct to defend their right to do so. The courts were right to say Warren DeMontague May 2015 #192

Did I say anything about censorship? Damansarajaya May 2015 #214

If you have a strong moral objection to criticizing, satirizing or mocking deeply held beliefs PeaceNikki May 2015 #216

Because the majority of Americans say they're Christian. Damansarajaya May 2015 #217

Liberal Christians should be leading the charge at mocking those who deserve it PeaceNikki May 2015 #218

We seem to be talking past each other. Damansarajaya May 2015 #221

Not fair? Well funded, hugely successful, widespread efforts to limit my autonomy are not fair. PeaceNikki May 2015 #222

Conflating Christian bigots with Christianity is like Damansarajaya May 2015 #223

Some of the core tenets of Christianity teach that women are dangerous and must submit. PeaceNikki May 2015 #224

Yes, James Dobson is truly vile. Damansarajaya May 2015 #225

One of the analogies I've seen since this brouhaha began has been -- Nuclear Unicorn May 2015 #211

+1 beam me up scottie May 2015 #229

Still seems not the same treestar May 2015 #234