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True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)
40. I'm aware that rational argument is insufficient, but it is definitely indispensable.
Sat May 9, 2015, 11:00 AM
May 2015

Quite obviously most people are not directed entirely by logic, and some are motivated by its nemesis. But identifying and immunizing society against psychoses requires exposure to them, and to intellectual combat with them.

Otherwise those who are rational will be weak when the power calculus is not in their favor: They will be tempted toward nihilism and moral retreat, behaving as if all ideas were equally corrupt, and cede the field to competing monsters whose only debate is what method civilization should use to commit suicide.

And while there are limits to speech based on the murky borderlands between speaking and action, those limits definitely do not apply to speech whose only negative consequences are in the criminal actions of its enemies rather than its supporters.

Take some of the 1960s Civil Rights protests, for instance - whites and blacks sitting together at lunch counters despite local and state laws prohibiting it. These were deliberate provocations against the violent racist establishment, and the locals usually obliged. Showing that they were peaceful and the segregationists violent was the entire point of the exercise.

Now, not every segregationist was violent, but the fact was that the South was far more tolerant of terrorist garbage like the KKK than they were of black people simply wanting to be treated like human beings, and that was what the protests meant to prove. They did so. And the racist establishment cried foul, blamed the protesters for the violence against them, and said they were "inciting" it and defaming the South in the process, but it was simply exposing the truth.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a black and a white person sitting together, and nothing inherently wrong with drawing a picture of a historical figure, so if either of these things "provokes" violence, then the problem is clearly with the individuals and political movements preaching the violence, not the non-violent movements that simply defy it.

consider the case of julius striecher, the only non-official, non-military nazi to be hanged at nuremberg. his crime? here is his condemnation by the jurists when he was sentenced to hang:


This was incitement of his own party to commit violence against others, not merely defying the violence of others. The problem here is that people are confusing the roles in the historical analogy. Nazism was the violent party; the non-violent party whose fundamental rights "offended" and "provoked" them to violence were Jews and liberals.

It's a very simple standard in most circumstances: Who is being violent, and who is not being violent? And it's pretty easy to see through the ludicrous moral equivocations that always follow, implying that speaking an "offensive" opinion is in a similar moral ballpark to threatening or carrying out murders against those who offend. The two are not even in the same moral cosmos.

While I agree that Fox News and others of their ilk have indeed been guilty of incitement to murder, I don't think holding them legally accountable is an option beyond civil lawsuits, and for precisely the reason outlined above - that right-wingers would abuse that standard to blur and eliminate the distinction, and end up using the power to prosecute incitement as a way to prosecute the victims of politically-motivated violence.

Republican prosecutors would charge people protesting against police violence with the deaths of police and their own fellow demonstrators at the hands of police. They would charge people protesting against racism with "hate speech," as they already routinely accuse the accuser.

Their constant desire to charge people who protest against wars with "treason" would be strengthened, since they could argue precedent in such speech laws - that opposing foreign policies of a government inherently weakens its ability to carry them out, and thus through some convoluted chain of logic say that protesters deliberately caused the deaths of US soldiers.

Evil is not something you can destroy or silence. Millennia of self-righteous tyrants, priests, censors, and radical mobs failed to improve the lot of humankind, because you cannot uproot flaws inherent to the human condition. Any kind of freedom requires the intellectual humility to understand that being right - no matter how right - carries no entitlement whatsoever beyond every other idea, nor should anyone who truly believes they are right need or expect such privileges.

I personally would have no interest in living in a society where people were superficially pleasant by force of law, because I would know their hearts would be brimming with unexpressed rage and hatred, sublimated resentments and crazy thoughts that festered for lack of open examination. It would seep into everything they do, poisoning their minds and leading to horrors the moment that suffocating social control relaxed or failed.

Conservative Islam, with all its oppressive rules and hypocrisy, produced radical Islam from the suppressed humanity of its millions of involuntary followers, and any form of conservative/authoritarian policy in Western societies would also lead to radicalism in the same vein. At best, if instead there were a rebound in the opposite direction, the reaction is often just as radical and oppressive - insane purity trolls like Robespierre and Lenin, crushing humankind in a vise-grip between their violence and that of their right-wing doppelgangers.

The only limits to freedom apply to situations where people recognize it's already been subverted: A liberal society doesn't start a war, but it can acknowledge when a war has been started and fight for the sake of some day not having to fight. A liberal society doesn't limit speech, but acknowledges when speech has gone beyond political expression and been merely a tool of violence.

Saying "give me your money or I'll kill you" is a crime because it strongly compels another's actions. Replying to the armed robber, "Fuck you, go rob someone else" does not compel the robber to pull the trigger. Even if you deliberately walked into a bad part of town in your best clothes hoping to find that situation, it's still 100% on the robber if they rob and/or shoot you.
k&r beam me up scottie May 2015 #1
I oppose criminalizing hate speech, but cali May 2015 #2
Should the RCC/Westboro Baptists be held responsible for anti-lgbt hate crimes? beam me up scottie May 2015 #3
As you know, any mention of Phelps or the Pope sends this crew packing, she will never even try Bluenorthwest May 2015 #33
If a muslim kills someone and says the Koran commanded it would you ban the Koran CBGLuthier May 2015 #4
Every power is double-edged. True Blue Door May 2015 #5
Using your logic they should be rounding up the clerics and other Islamic scholars Lee-Lee May 2015 #27
The people guilty are the people who shot people with guns. Shoulders of Giants May 2015 #38
Imminence. Incitement isn't what many are thinking it is. n/t X_Digger May 2015 #34
Do you consider being free to use a city's bus service to promote hate "censorship"? Scootaloo May 2015 #6
Everyone has an equal right to the public space. True Blue Door May 2015 #7
Do you believe being free to put ads on buses constitutes censorship, or not? Scootaloo May 2015 #8
Only if the limits are imposed by law and are politically selective. True Blue Door May 2015 #10
So no, Gellar is not being censored. Scootaloo May 2015 #11
. beam me up scottie May 2015 #13
No one is being censored there, are they? No Free speech is being infringed, is it? Scootaloo May 2015 #15
I posted a link to an op re: banning hate speech so you'd know what inspired the op. beam me up scottie May 2015 #16
In response to me asking where someone was being censored Scootaloo May 2015 #18
No, they're free to express their extremely wrong-headed ideas about the 1st Amendment. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #20
I didn't alert on that op, did you? beam me up scottie May 2015 #21
No, not me. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #24
Agreed. Like people who imagine censorship where there is none Scootaloo May 2015 #25
The topic of criminalizing hate speech was raised earlier. True Blue Door May 2015 #14
"As for your Putin-esque attempts to Godwinize liberalism" Scootaloo May 2015 #17
Floating the specter of Nazism doesn't work when the main reason it failed True Blue Door May 2015 #26
You're the one raising naziism first off Scootaloo May 2015 #29
I mentioned Nazism to deflate it as an argument I knew someone like you would raise. True Blue Door May 2015 #32
Great post about the Weimar constitution Pooka Fey May 2015 #39
Scholars have written volumes on the subject, there are hours of documentary footage available Pooka Fey May 2015 #37
I'm aware of the history, and of people's attempts to rewrite it for ideological purposes. True Blue Door May 2015 #41
Let me analyse just one sentence of your above post, because I only have 45 minutes. Pooka Fey May 2015 #42
France had a resistance movement. Germany had a few random people defying Hitler True Blue Door May 2015 #44
Stating that a German Resistance existed does in NO WAY condone or excuse the evil of the 3rd Reich Pooka Fey May 2015 #45
The scholarship on the subject is massive because the need to find humanizing details True Blue Door May 2015 #47
Fine...however without consequences hate speeches lead into actions. vaberella May 2015 #9
All speech has consequences. Not all speech leads to actions. True Blue Door May 2015 #12
I'm not convinced the metro bus system couldnt have other options for regulating ads than Warren DeMontague May 2015 #19
But is it censorship to have those ads? Scootaloo May 2015 #22
Oh ffs. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #23
I try to restrain my pissed-offness for things that are actually happening Scootaloo May 2015 #28
I didn't say she was being censored. Neither did the OP. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #30
Is it? Scootaloo May 2015 #31
I watched Straight Religious people stage hundreds and hundreds of attacks on LGBT funerals while Bluenorthwest May 2015 #36
It's different because it's offensive to religious people, Blue. beam me up scottie May 2015 #46
Uh, hardly, dude. Warren DeMontague May 2015 #43
the sake of argument ellennelle May 2015 #35
I'm aware that rational argument is insufficient, but it is definitely indispensable. True Blue Door May 2015 #40
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