America is about to make a horrible mistake all over again

[jeff47]

119. History did not start yesterday.

And the "leaked" DRAFTS, something that you KNOW are incomplete, are to be more trusted?

Yes. Even if they are not exactly the final product, at this late stage in the negotiations they are close.

And the Obama administration is free to reveal that anything offensive in the leaked drafts have been renegotiated.

in negotiations, one doesn't broadcast what you are getting, until the deal is done ... that good faith cover is how you get what you want. When you broadcast what you are getting, those you are negotiating with that are giving way, can't be seen as having given in.


suggesting that the USTR's Negotiating Objectives have been reached, or met to a satisfactory degree? (Perhaps, you should confer with someone that negotiates for a living.)

Your bias is showing.

My bias is showing when you quote yourself. And apparently attack yourself.

Again ... Different President and different times

That's why we're getting 1990s policy. Because everything is different.

What are you talking about? Lax Foreign labor protections (e.g., low wages and unregulated working conditions) and virtually no environmental protections are THE key driver of labor arbitrage!

Nope. Your workers have to eat, and have to have a place to sleep.

Why is labor cheaper in some parts of the US? It isn't because of large differences in environmental laws - those are mostly federal. It isn't because of large differences in labor protection laws. Again, mostly federal.

What is different? Cost of living. A McDonalds in NYC has to pay more than a McDonalds in Syracuse. Same state. Same labor laws. Same environmental laws. Same job. Massive difference in cost of living and large difference in pay.

This is what President Obama is talking about when he referred "fighting the last war" ... the fact is much of the manufacturing jobs in the US are gone, and aren't coming back

So time to make things worse by repeating the same mistakes!! Full speed ahead! The iceberg will sink this time!

See, you are making the same claims as "the last war". You are claiming you will get good results, just like the last war. And now you desperately need people to forget about the results of the last war.

If you want to show that this is an entirely different situation, show that it actually is different. So far, all that has come out is the same promises as last time.

... for exactly the reason you state: AUTOMATION ... but the jobs that ARE being re-shored are those that industry has not figured out a way to effectively automate.

No. Those jobs remain offshore. Re-shoring is trivial except in highly automated manufacturing. Design and development never moved offshore in significant numbers, so you can't point to those jobs as successes.

True, and by addressing the labor arbitrage matter, through universal worker and environmental protections, we also address the Design/Engineering to production lag ... further, making off-shoring less attractive (profitable).

To translate from your attempt to make this sound good, "When we make our workers accept Vietnam's minimum wage, we'll get so many jobs!!!"

Are you arguing fact or assertion? http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t24.htm ... with the exception of "Leisure and hospitality" wages across occupations are comparable to those of manufacturing.

History did not start yesterday.

Manufacturing jobs of the 1960s paid six figures in 2015 money. They're gone, thanks to offshoring. You're now pushing a treaty to increase offshoring. Just how little do you think US workers should be paid?

While I agree with most of this ... you are taking the speculations about jobs losses, as an article of faith

No, every single "free trade" deal in the last 40 years has cost US high-paying manufacturing jobs. The leaks confirm that the TPP is similar in focus to every previous "free trade" deal. To expect the opposite result from this deal is an article of faith. And insane.

How many times do you need rocks to fall on your head before you decide to stop standing at the bottom of a cliff? "No, this time the rocks will just float in the air!!"