General Discussion

True Blue Door

(2,969 posts)

78. Umm, yes.

Sun May 10, 2015, 03:41 PM

May 2015

1. Yes, it has been expansionist. Repeatedly. Ask the Tibetans. And it's expansionist now, because it can afford to be.

2. China's per capita income in the decades before trade was closer to sub-Saharan Africa than Mexico.

3. Doesn't matter whether the oligarchy give a shit about their citizens. The money they make comes out of factories, not stock gambling or interest rates. That kind of investment changes an economy for the better. It's how European investment drove the industrialization of the United States in the 19th century.

4. No, I'm saying the trade deficit would spread out among more partners, giving the US proportionally more leverage with each of them than it would otherwise have.

5. In other words, an obvious truth you can't dispute, but are too petulant to simply concede it.

6. You have a very high opinion of Chinese billionaires.

I'm not making arguments for or against, I'm making points that need to be taken into consideration. But since you already know everything, feel free not to judge us mere mortals who have to actually invest thought before we form an opinion.

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Without endorsing TPP, some things to consider about it. [View all] True Blue Door May 2015 OP

"Our demands for it should be aware of, and tailored to those reasons." - With Fast Track, the djean111 May 2015 #1

Agreed. True Blue Door May 2015 #2

The only thing I know abou the TPP that has been released to the public Exilednight May 2015 #3

That promise has been delivered. True Blue Door May 2015 #6

There is no reason to keep a trade agreement secret, this isn't Exilednight May 2015 #12

There is no trade agreement. There are negotiations on a trade agreement. True Blue Door May 2015 #14

If the trade agreement doesn't exist, then there is nothing to Exilednight May 2015 #19

Indeed, there is nothing to vote on until something is submitted. True Blue Door May 2015 #38

I know what TPA is. It's used to squelch or limit debate Exilednight May 2015 #79

When the final negotiations take place and a deal is agreed to, it will be submitted to okaawhatever May 2015 #63

Well - Similar Things Were Said About NAFTA - We Saw What That Spawned cantbeserious May 2015 #4

Nothing of the sort was said about NAFTA. True Blue Door May 2015 #8

And Can One Believe Platitudes Over History - If So - That Is The Definition Of Gullibility cantbeserious May 2015 #9

Facts are not "platitudes." They ARE history. True Blue Door May 2015 #16

Actually, there were striking similarities. cali May 2015 #11

So instead of actually making an argument, you just assert that you have one. True Blue Door May 2015 #18

I just informed you that the evidence exists that the arguments were similar in many cali May 2015 #20

Usually Public Citizen does better work than that. True Blue Door May 2015 #26

What Happened To This Obama - Promoted The Scrapping Of NAFTA cantbeserious May 2015 #40

Who says that's not still his agenda via TPP? True Blue Door May 2015 #41

Non Sensical - TPP Is For Pacific Rim - NAFTA Was For Canada And Mexico cantbeserious May 2015 #42

I mean the agenda of serving the working people of this country. True Blue Door May 2015 #43

Obama - Like HRC - Serves The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks - Based On His Support Of TPP cantbeserious May 2015 #44

A reckless, arrogant smear 180 degrees off of reality. True Blue Door May 2015 #45

Your Opinion Only - Others Would Disagree cantbeserious May 2015 #46

Of course it's my opinion. Who else's opinion would I be advocating? True Blue Door May 2015 #47

Are Some Now Advocating That Emotion Is Not A Valid Human Trait cantbeserious May 2015 #48

It's not a valid basis for drawing conclusions about a Presidency. True Blue Door May 2015 #49

The Emotional Upheaval And Main Street Impact Of NAFTA Can Be See On Many Streets In The US cantbeserious May 2015 #52

Where is the evidence that NAFTA caused those job losses? True Blue Door May 2015 #55

Now One Now Has To Question Your Reason - Studies Galore About The Impact Of NAFTA cantbeserious May 2015 #58

So you're refusing to justify your position with evidence? Fine by me. True Blue Door May 2015 #60

No - I am Not Willing To Do Your Homework For You - There Is A Difference cantbeserious May 2015 #61

Proving your claims is not MY homework. True Blue Door May 2015 #66

Proving Your Claims Is Not My Homework Either cantbeserious May 2015 #67

Since my claim is that you're not proving yours...guess what? True Blue Door May 2015 #71

Since My Claim Is That You Have Unsupported Claims - Guess What cantbeserious May 2015 #73

So this is your plan - parroting me? True Blue Door May 2015 #75

You Are The One With An Agenda cantbeserious May 2015 #76

Who's doing the negotiating? HooptieWagon May 2015 #102

You can argue for it, but you fail to persuade me Exilednight May 2015 #81

I disagree. China's growing power is not some fundamental law of the universe. True Blue Door May 2015 #82

It does have a specific cause, and solution, but a trade agreement will not stop it. n/t Exilednight May 2015 #84

However, it can be a beginning toward a solution. Can be. True Blue Door May 2015 #86

Superpower ambitions? They're already there. Good luck Exilednight May 2015 #88

Having the most money does not make one a superpower. They're not even close. True Blue Door May 2015 #92

If you don't believe they're a super power, then you live in Exilednight May 2015 #99

Oversimplification treestar May 2015 #34

That You Believe Differently Is Your Opinion - Others Would Disagree cantbeserious May 2015 #54

ooh, I'll play. Let's parse: cali May 2015 #5

In other words, we're falling behind China in trade with SE Asia. True Blue Door May 2015 #13

China has a population of nearly one and a half billion people. It is cali May 2015 #17

Your sense of fatalism about Chinese power is very strange. True Blue Door May 2015 #21

a knowledge of history is helpful cali May 2015 #23

Fair enough. I'll look more deeply. True Blue Door May 2015 #28

but is the choice actually only between standing still cali May 2015 #33

Our entire economy is too influenced by corporate interests. True Blue Door May 2015 #37

Here, let me fuck you before China fucks you? That's really what it boils down to? X_Digger May 2015 #72

No, not even close. Your Universal Translator needs some calibrating. True Blue Door May 2015 #74

Some may think it protects our jobs here. edgineered May 2015 #7

I'm not clear on what you mean. True Blue Door May 2015 #22

No problem, most of the time I don't say things right the first time. edgineered May 2015 #24

Too detailed a question for my pay grade. True Blue Door May 2015 #29

Ha - good answer! edgineered May 2015 #31

I think these are reasonable arguments although I am sure many will dispute them. DCBob May 2015 #10

Thanks. I don't know what to feel about it, but I can see it's not as simple as some claim. True Blue Door May 2015 #15

I tend to look at things from a more global perspective. DCBob May 2015 #25

Indeed, my trust in Barack Obama's motives and values is 100%. True Blue Door May 2015 #30

Good way to put it. DCBob May 2015 #32

ah, now I better understand. cali May 2015 #56

Hmm, too abstruse for my limited attention span. True Blue Door May 2015 #59

actually, it's quite a good read. cali May 2015 #64

My definition of "progressive" is someone committed to making progress. True Blue Door May 2015 #70

One of my biggest issues with TPP is from the viewpoint of the smaller less powerful nations. What jwirr May 2015 #50

Globalization has helped many in developing nations out of poverty. DCBob May 2015 #85

So less than a $1 an hour will lift someone out of poverty? I doubt it. And also why do we have all jwirr May 2015 #89

Many are much better off than that. DCBob May 2015 #90

Of course there are a few who rise. But is it a real reform for the people? By the way, our jobs are jwirr May 2015 #93

It's more than a few.. DCBob May 2015 #94

I was just trying to show that more power to the powerful was not going to be good for any of us. jwirr May 2015 #97

If what this is really about, is limiting the influence of China, RDANGELO May 2015 #27

It's one possible aspect, but that doesn't mean it's the only one. True Blue Door May 2015 #35

FDR's trade deals were about trade. From everything we have so far seen about TPP this is not jwirr May 2015 #51

Can you elaborate the distinction between trade and international corporate profit? True Blue Door May 2015 #53

Trade = export of US products. International corporations = import of foreign made products to the jwirr May 2015 #57

Then we agree on definitions. My problem with FTAs as currently configured True Blue Door May 2015 #68

I hear what you are saying - don't know if it would work. Emmanual Todd in his book "After the jwirr May 2015 #69

Japan is a high wage, high population, high consumer partner, dwarfing the other nations economies, good to remember that. Fred Sanders May 2015 #36

Indeed, and China was apparently quite irked when Japan signed on to TPP. True Blue Door May 2015 #39

The Chinese being irked puts what into my pockets and presents me with what opportunities? TheKentuckian May 2015 #62

These are very good points. True Blue Door May 2015 #65

I'm concerned with both. You get the domestic issues that you claim will fix trade problems and TheKentuckian May 2015 #103

Um, no AgingAmerican May 2015 #77

Umm, yes. True Blue Door May 2015 #78

Hilarious! AgingAmerican May 2015 #100

It's really, really good for us. Trust the president. Katashi_itto May 2015 #80

I do trust him, I just don't know if I agree with him on this. True Blue Door May 2015 #83

Give the track record of agreements and the nature of the opposition Katashi_itto May 2015 #87

A lot of it is knee jerk. That particular concern, however, sounds very credible. True Blue Door May 2015 #91

Let me rephrase. It doesnt matter if it's knee jerk. Katashi_itto May 2015 #95

I'm not convinced that trade agreements are what hollowed out our middle-class. True Blue Door May 2015 #96

Whatever. People have been sending links above, posting valid arguments and you simply ignore them. Katashi_itto May 2015 #98

My views. JDPriestly May 2015 #101