Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
62. focus, josh- and try to respond to the facts:
Thu May 14, 2015, 09:59 AM
May 2015

First of all, I haven't claimed that the WTO and IMF are protectionist- and I wouldn't, as I don't know enough about them to make a claim one way or the other. I am claiming that the draft of the IP chapter of the TPP is inherently protectionist. Yes, it's a draft, but these are USTR negotiators priorities. It's very unlikely that there have been substantive changes:

Where Is The 'Free Trade' In The TPP IP Chapter?

People have pointed out how KORUS -- the free trade" agreement that the US signed with South Korea a few years ago, which included draconian intellectual property rules, is "the model" for "modern free trade agreements." It was used as the basis for ACTA, and now it's often pointed to as the model for the TPP as well. When KORUS was first being debated, we wondered why a "free trade" agreement would include rules for stricter monopolies, as that seemed like the exact opposite of free trade. Free trade is about knocking down the walls to protectionism, not building more monopoly power. And yet, that's exactly what it did -- creating tremendous problems to the point that South Korea is now looking for ways to get out of the intellectual property requirements of the agreement.

And yet, defenders of the TPP still point to KORUS as the "model" for TPP and talk it up as if it's been a wonderful and successful agreement. However, it seems that others are noticing that there doesn't appear to be any "free trade" in this "free trade agreement." Instead, it's purely mercantilist cronyism, designed to limit economic growth and public welfare, to benefit a few large legacy companies.

Exhibit A was released by WikiLeaks last week: the latest draft of the "intellectual property" chapter of the agreement, one of 24 (out of 29) chapters that do not have to do with trade. This chapter has provisions that will make it easier for pharmaceutical companies to get patents, including in developing countries; have these patents for more years; and extend the ability of these companies to limit access to the scientific data that is necessary for other researchers to develop new medicines. And the United States is even pushing for provisions that would allow surgical procedures to be patented – provisions that may be currently against US law.

All of these measures will help raise the price of medicines and health care, which will strain public health systems and price some people out of the market for important medicines. It is interesting to see how much worse the TPP is than the WTO's Trips (Trade-Related Aspects of International Property Rights). This, too, was a massive rip-off of consumers and patients throughout the world, but after years of struggle by health advocates and public interest groups, some of its worst features were attenuated, and further consolidation of pharmaceutical companies' interests were blocked.

So why are we increasing protectionism and putting in greater monopoly power in a so-called "free trade" agreement? Because these legacy companies and the USTR long ago learned that if you say something on the label, but then put the exact opposite in the Where Is The 'Free Trade' In The TPP IP Chapter?
from the still-searching... dept
People have pointed out how KORUS -- the free trade" agreement that the US signed with South Korea a few years ago, which included draconian intellectual property rules, is "the model" for "modern free trade agreements." It was used as the basis for ACTA, and now it's often pointed to as the model for the TPP as well. When KORUS was first being debated, we wondered why a "free trade" agreement would include rules for stricter monopolies, as that seemed like the exact opposite of free trade. Free trade is about knocking down the walls to protectionism, not building more monopoly power. And yet, that's exactly what it did -- creating tremendous problems to the point that South Korea is now looking for ways to get out of the intellectual property requirements of the agreement.

And yet, defenders of the TPP still point to KORUS as the "model" for TPP and talk it up as if it's been a wonderful and successful agreement. However, it seems that others are noticing that there doesn't appear to be any "free trade" in this "free trade agreement." Instead, it's purely mercantilist cronyism, designed to limit economic growth and public welfare, to benefit a few large legacy companies.

Exhibit A was released by WikiLeaks last week: the latest draft of the "intellectual property" chapter of the agreement, one of 24 (out of 29) chapters that do not have to do with trade. This chapter has provisions that will make it easier for pharmaceutical companies to get patents, including in developing countries; have these patents for more years; and extend the ability of these companies to limit access to the scientific data that is necessary for other researchers to develop new medicines. And the United States is even pushing for provisions that would allow surgical procedures to be patented – provisions that may be currently against US law.

All of these measures will help raise the price of medicines and health care, which will strain public health systems and price some people out of the market for important medicines. It is interesting to see how much worse the TPP is than the WTO's Trips (Trade-Related Aspects of International Property Rights). This, too, was a massive rip-off of consumers and patients throughout the world, but after years of struggle by health advocates and public interest groups, some of its worst features were attenuated, and further consolidation of pharmaceutical companies' interests were blocked.

So why are we increasing protectionism and putting in greater monopoly power in a so-called "free trade" agreement? Because these legacy companies and the USTR long ago learned that if you say something on the label, but then put the exact opposite in the Where Is The 'Free Trade' In The TPP IP Chapter?
from the still-searching... dept
People have pointed out how KORUS -- the free trade" agreement that the US signed with South Korea a few years ago, which included draconian intellectual property rules, is "the model" for "modern free trade agreements." It was used as the basis for ACTA, and now it's often pointed to as the model for the TPP as well. When KORUS was first being debated, we wondered why a "free trade" agreement would include rules for stricter monopolies, as that seemed like the exact opposite of free trade. Free trade is about knocking down the walls to protectionism, not building more monopoly power. And yet, that's exactly what it did -- creating tremendous problems to the point that South Korea is now looking for ways to get out of the intellectual property requirements of the agreement.

And yet, defenders of the TPP still point to KORUS as the "model" for TPP and talk it up as if it's been a wonderful and successful agreement. However, it seems that others are noticing that there doesn't appear to be any "free trade" in this "free trade agreement." Instead, it's purely mercantilist cronyism, designed to limit economic growth and public welfare, to benefit a few large legacy companies.

Exhibit A was released by WikiLeaks last week: the latest draft of the "intellectual property" chapter of the agreement, one of 24 (out of 29) chapters that do not have to do with trade. This chapter has provisions that will make it easier for pharmaceutical companies to get patents, including in developing countries; have these patents for more years; and extend the ability of these companies to limit access to the scientific data that is necessary for other researchers to develop new medicines. And the United States is even pushing for provisions that would allow surgical procedures to be patented – provisions that may be currently against US law.

All of these measures will help raise the price of medicines and health care, which will strain public health systems and price some people out of the market for important medicines. It is interesting to see how much worse the TPP is than the WTO's Trips (Trade-Related Aspects of International Property Rights). This, too, was a massive rip-off of consumers and patients throughout the world, but after years of struggle by health advocates and public interest groups, some of its worst features were attenuated, and further consolidation of pharmaceutical companies' interests were blocked.

So why are we increasing protectionism and putting in greater monopoly power in a so-called "free trade" agreement? Because these legacy companies and the USTR long ago learned that if you say something on the label, but then put the exact opposite in the Where Is The 'Free Trade' In The TPP IP Chapter?
from the still-searching... dept
People have pointed out how KORUS -- the free trade" agreement that the US signed with South Korea a few years ago, which included draconian intellectual property rules, is "the model" for "modern free trade agreements." It was used as the basis for ACTA, and now it's often pointed to as the model for the TPP as well. When KORUS was first being debated, we wondered why a "free trade" agreement would include rules for stricter monopolies, as that seemed like the exact opposite of free trade. Free trade is about knocking down the walls to protectionism, not building more monopoly power. And yet, that's exactly what it did -- creating tremendous problems to the point that South Korea is now looking for ways to get out of the intellectual property requirements of the agreement.

And yet, defenders of the TPP still point to KORUS as the "model" for TPP and talk it up as if it's been a wonderful and successful agreement. However, it seems that others are noticing that there doesn't appear to be any "free trade" in this "free trade agreement." Instead, it's purely mercantilist cronyism, designed to limit economic growth and public welfare, to benefit a few large legacy companies.

Exhibit A was released by WikiLeaks last week: the latest draft of the "intellectual property" chapter of the agreement, one of 24 (out of 29) chapters that do not have to do with trade. This chapter has provisions that will make it easier for pharmaceutical companies to get patents, including in developing countries; have these patents for more years; and extend the ability of these companies to limit access to the scientific data that is necessary for other researchers to develop new medicines. And the United States is even pushing for provisions that would allow surgical procedures to be patented – provisions that may be currently against US law.

All of these measures will help raise the price of medicines and health care, which will strain public health systems and price some people out of the market for important medicines. It is interesting to see how much worse the TPP is than the WTO's Trips (Trade-Related Aspects of International Property Rights). This, too, was a massive rip-off of consumers and patients throughout the world, but after years of struggle by health advocates and public interest groups, some of its worst features were attenuated, and further consolidation of pharmaceutical companies' interests were blocked.

So why are we increasing protectionism and putting in greater monopoly power in a so-called "free trade" agreement? Because these legacy companies and the USTR long ago learned that if you say something on the label, but then put the exact opposite in the package, the press, the public and plenty of politicians will pretend that what you say on the label is actually in the package.

<snip>

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131119/16513725296/where-is-free-trade-tpp-ip-chapter.shtml

I don't want to inundate you with more here; you can go to any number of public interest groups with a focus on IP and find much the same analysis- from EFF to Professor Flynn's InfoJustice blog. Also you can read what public health experts and organizations have to say on the "evergreening" of drug patents.

You are displaying increasing petulance and you're flailing about piteously- which I find rather odd. There's substantive evidence to back my claims. I link to that evidence. You just lash out childishly and make declarations without even attempting to back them up. Why? Could it be you're aware of the dearth of evidence for your "argument"?

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Meet the Father of Free Trade. [View all] Drunken Irishman May 2015 OP
Yes, but his trade agreements were about the import and export of real products. They were not jwirr May 2015 #1
He heavily taxed corporations and the rich people who owned them and regulated those corporations pampango May 2015 #30
Exactly. That's the key. Hoyt May 2015 #54
Yes, but I don't know that those people will not just leave the country if we try that now. They jwirr May 2015 #65
Let em leave and good riddance; they just need to forfeit their assets. That'd be fine with me. InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #66
I agree. jwirr May 2015 #67
They might. Probably not. They have not left Europe, Canada, etc. in any significant way. pampango May 2015 #69
Yes,that is true. jwirr May 2015 #71
Exactly. He wouldn't be very pleased with oil companies getting billions of free dollars raouldukelives May 2015 #70
Lulz Jesus Malverde May 2015 #2
+1 joshcryer May 2015 #15
True that. nt okaawhatever May 2015 #3
Lol, not even a 'nice try'. sabrina 1 May 2015 #4
FDR's view of free trade was that brentspeak May 2015 #5
Thank you.^^^ RiverLover May 2015 #8
I don't think it's so much "ignorance" as it is Art_from_Ark May 2015 #56
He created the WTO and IMF. joshcryer May 2015 #11
How old are you, again? MrMickeysMom May 2015 #21
Um, FDR created the IBRD and IMF. joshcryer May 2015 #31
Yeah, josh…. I am... MrMickeysMom May 2015 #75
Complete revisionism. FDR does not equal Obama. FDR undetstood the Exilednight May 2015 #79
The WTO dates from 1994. GATT was established in 1948. Roosevelt was kind of dead by then. Scootaloo May 2015 #59
GATT was part of FDR's ITO. It was supposed to be a temporary organization to facilitate trade until pampango May 2015 #64
I have often thought that we would be much better off if each region provided jobs and products jwirr May 2015 #68
Yes. moondust May 2015 #73
Cant add anything to that excellent history lesson. hifiguy May 2015 #84
Who can argue with that? I guess the investor courts and the intellectual property provisions are neverforget May 2015 #6
The Father of Free Trade was the first man to be run over by a locomotive muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #7
FDR passed WTO and IMF. joshcryer May 2015 #14
Fear of the unknown is a hard fear for some to overcome. Major Hogwash May 2015 #9
bzzzt Flailing fail. falling down drunk fail. cali May 2015 #10
The WTO and IMF "bear little resemblance" to NAFTA? joshcryer May 2015 #12
Trade deals have become less and less, since NAFTA, about the nuts and bolts of cali May 2015 #16
No…. the poster DOES NOT get it... MrMickeysMom May 2015 #22
Do you support the WTO and IMF? joshcryer May 2015 #25
WTO (IBRD) and IMF are inherently NOT protectionist. joshcryer May 2015 #36
focus, josh- and try to respond to the facts: cali May 2015 #62
He sure shut up quickly. Bonobo May 2015 #76
This is TWM level discussion. joshcryer May 2015 #13
Say what, josh? I thought FDR was long dead in 1995 when the WTO cali May 2015 #17
Even the GATT negotiations didn't start until 1946 muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #23
IBRD was the foundation for WTO. joshcryer May 2015 #28
The World Bank? it's quite a different beast (nt) muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #35
IBRD is the BANK. joshcryer May 2015 #38
Yes, and that is not, in any form, GATT, the WTO, or free trade agreements muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #39
How does this happen without IBRD or the IMF? joshcryer May 2015 #40
The IMF is about international monetary stability muriel_volestrangler May 2015 #51
Bretton Woods Conference joshcryer May 2015 #26
Trying to use FDR to bolster your argument cali May 2015 #48
Yes, Josh and the world is exactly like it was back then too! Bonobo May 2015 #18
hey,didn't you know that FDR came back from the dead in 1995 cali May 2015 #20
The world is far more interconnected. joshcryer May 2015 #27
Yeah, so what? Bonobo May 2015 #44
So it was OK to pass those trade agreements then? joshcryer May 2015 #45
Now you are talking a different conversation. Bonobo May 2015 #50
So FDR is irrelevant to the 21st century? Is that the new liberal point of view? pampango May 2015 #34
I'd argue that in many ways, he isn't very germane cali May 2015 #37
Hoo boy. The spinning is growing ever more desperate. marmar May 2015 #19
Another lie. 99Forever May 2015 #24
"FDR was the father of modern globalization, a fact that both modern Democrats and Republicans choose pampango May 2015 #29
+1 joshcryer May 2015 #33
We don't live in that world. It's less than honest to pretend we do cali May 2015 #41
You are right. We don't live in the same world that FDR did. We live in the world he helped create. pampango May 2015 #47
The benefits are taxed, and can be taxed more. Hoyt May 2015 #55
Are you insane? Taxes? The repukes are in the process of eliminating taxes on the wealthy and Elwood P Dowd May 2015 #77
They are taxed, although as I've said, the regs need to be tightened. As to insanity? Hoyt May 2015 #78
FDR opposed FASCISM Octafish May 2015 #32
FDR used the power of the state to control corporations and the rich. He also proposed pampango May 2015 #43
ITO isn't WTO Octafish May 2015 #52
Never said that it was. It would have been much better than the WTO. pampango May 2015 #61
Well that makes it okay then... Feron May 2015 #42
But did he take away tariffs that protected industry using Americans to build products? cascadiance May 2015 #46
That is exactly what he did. pampango May 2015 #49
You got to quote the 1936 GOP platform to connect FDR to supporting TPP? Octafish May 2015 #53
No. My response was to a post about tariffs. TPP has little to do with tariffs which are already low pampango May 2015 #58
Kindred spirits. nt Romulox May 2015 #82
Good thing this is not a history test, FDR is NOT the father of free trade. Rex May 2015 #57
YAwn ...another FDR hater. L0oniX May 2015 #60
If that means somewhere there's a fucked up stepdad... cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author moondust May 2015 #72
Meet the Mother of Inane OPs whatchamacallit May 2015 #74
Nothing with FDR qualifies under "inane" fadedrose May 2015 #81
Yes, it was a response to whatchamacallit May 2015 #83
That isn't John C. Calhoun MFrohike May 2015 #80
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Meet the Father of Free T...»Reply #62