General Discussion

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)

11. It is a tricky question

Thu May 14, 2015, 11:06 AM

May 2015

I guess there are two questions here - what is the value to pushing through a bill that has no hope, as Sanders has done repeatedly, and are Sanders/Warren/Boxer simply playing politics with granting fast track authority on TPP? Correct me if I have misunderstood.

The first one illustrates Sanders weakness in some areas - he hasn't been able to build a coalition to support his positions, and as such he hasn't had as much legislative success as we would like to see. I don't think you can call his bills purely symbolic; rather I am sure that he believes that his bills and proposals are genuinely what is best for America (a belief that I share, particularly in this case). Clinton and Obama have been more successful in building coalitions; but they are also going for more middle of the road solutions to these problems. From my perspective it comes down to do I want to support someone who is fighting less effectively for everything I would want, or do I want to support someone who is fighting more effectively for half of what i want or worse.

Which segues nicely into the TPP debate - I don't think TPP is a great deal for America, as near as I can understand it. I think it prioritizes corporate rights over individual rights, while it makes some gestures towards environmental concerns, they aren't very strong, and the potential for its use to harm local unions and local laws (in our case, state and city laws) is troubling. I am not knee-jerk opposed to all trade bills, but this one troubles me (not least of which because of the secrecy that Senator Boxer commented on). I think it's bad policy and will have bad effects both in the USA and in the other nations effected by it. While I can acknowledge Obama's political acumen in fighting for it, I wish that skill were turned to more productive ends.

In the case of TPP it seems simple to me - Obama is fighting for a bad trade agreement that seems likely to cause harm; Boxer/Warren/Sanders are fighting against this bad trade agreement, so I'm on their side.

Bryant

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] seabeyond May 2015 OP

Transparency? cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #1

please, just quit playing games. you want to know something? ask! seabeyond May 2015 #2

OK. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #3

ok. transparency. i do not know what you are talking about... so done. seabeyond May 2015 #4

I guess you forgot your asking this question: cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #23

well... then, and thank you for finally taking effort to clarify. i disagree. i am being transparent seabeyond May 2015 #28

What you're being transparent about is your perception that it's a stunt. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #34

is it a stunt or not. simple question. not about me ... dude. seabeyond May 2015 #37

"dude"? Srsly? cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #70

For one thing, Sanders does not dial for dollars from corporations and their JDPriestly May 2015 #184

Yup madokie May 2015 #188

none of that addressed what i asked. nt seabeyond May 2015 #191

Very specifically, Pink? Really? A stunt? JDPriestly May 2015 #196

Thank You JD Priestly Nevada Blue May 2015 #222

What do you really mean by a political stunt? JDPriestly May 2015 #193

It would help if you actually asked a question. kenfrequed May 2015 #5

i want to know if warren and sanders participated in two political stunts. if so, dont we have to seabeyond May 2015 #7

"I want to know" Bonobo May 2015 #8

YOU, are one i will not take seriously. you, are one that makes shit up, and then argues from that seabeyond May 2015 #12

You don't take them seriously. That's a shame. NCTraveler May 2015 #18

not in addressing me. as a whole? yes i do. hence the continual addressing of the social/economic seabeyond May 2015 #22

such a sober, respectful voice geek tragedy May 2015 #26

yes. he consistently giggles at vulgarly denigrating women thru language of a question. nt seabeyond May 2015 #32

I was making the point that posting about small penis size as a joke is no different Bonobo May 2015 #231

So... kenfrequed May 2015 #31

stopping at the first sentence. i am not the one claiming stunt. the populist on du are.... seabeyond May 2015 #47

Direct quote: kenfrequed May 2015 #56

i'm not allowed to ask a political question, involving democrats on a democratic board? seabeyond May 2015 #62

So... kenfrequed May 2015 #91

ASKING if it is a stunt, while populists on du are calling it a stunt. have issue with the word seabeyond May 2015 #94

Well no. kenfrequed May 2015 #97

you argue, creating a bogus argument and have the guts to call me a liar? seabeyond May 2015 #102

I already quoted you once. kenfrequed May 2015 #103

"fake-question accusation" they were not fake. you argue fake. that is you making up an argument. seabeyond May 2015 #106

I am done with you. kenfrequed May 2015 #108

ya. done. make up and argument. call me a liar. and done. i hear ya. ah ha.... seabeyond May 2015 #110

Populists are NOT calling anything Sanders and Warren did a stunt afaik. cui bono May 2015 #230

I agree. nt cyberswede May 2015 #235

You have a right to be suspicious of a politician's pose... Orsino May 2015 #38

seeing how anally pragmatic i am.... i cant help but see it in all and everywhere. just how i walk seabeyond May 2015 #48

No they didn't. sabrina 1 May 2015 #52

populist said sanders puts the bill up yearly, knowing nothing will happen. what is that? seabeyond May 2015 #54

Why do you think that good bills like Sanders' need to be introduced over and over again? sabrina 1 May 2015 #118

you post has nothing to do with what i am talking about. you changed the conversation. seabeyond May 2015 #122

NO! You cannot ask questions about the DU chosen one! MoonRiver May 2015 #131

i was an obama supporter, calling out the sexism to palin/clinton. just the kind of woman, i am. nt seabeyond May 2015 #134

I was a Hillary supporter and endured a miserable time here during the primary. MoonRiver May 2015 #140

it seems to be moonriver. doesnt mean i will shut up. i need factual information to process and seabeyond May 2015 #143

I applaud you seabeyond! MoonRiver May 2015 #150

Sea, not sure what is going on today, but you seem to be looking for a fight Marrah_G May 2015 #144

wrong. i asked to be informed. i have people saying i do not want to be informed. calling me a seabeyond May 2015 #146

The president wants you to believe they were stunts to minimalize what they said, what they're RiverLover May 2015 #72

the populist dems on du are the ones yelling the "dems" 24hr tpp lock is a stunt. nt seabeyond May 2015 #74

I didn't. I read an article about what was really happening. It was the press everyone should be RiverLover May 2015 #78

thank you, for addressing my OP. so you are seeing the yesterday thing, as the press. seabeyond May 2015 #80

Your answer will be either "yes" or "no" lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #124

I don't believe so Marrah_G May 2015 #139

can you explain the anger at some dems, calling tpp the last 24 hours a stunt, while seabeyond May 2015 #145

I have no explaination for what other DUers are thinking Marrah_G May 2015 #148

i was trying to get an understanding of the politics yesterday, and obama vs warren. seabeyond May 2015 #152

I wasn't on DU yesterday, so I must have missed a lot. Marrah_G May 2015 #153

First of all the tpp issue is not what you were asking about at the beginning of this OP. If it was jwirr May 2015 #197

thank you. if my OP was not clear, it was because i was not informed, hence ASKING questions. seabeyond May 2015 #199

What is a "stunt?" Jackpine Radical May 2015 #186

i didnt say it was a pointless stunt. i call it a political move. i agree with it. headlines.... seabeyond May 2015 #192

OK, some terms have been rather corrupted by sloppy usage. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #202

It's a little unnerving. ucrdem May 2015 #6

i cant help it. i am beginning to wonder also... why wouldnt i. a week into sanders run, seabeyond May 2015 #9

The chorus of STFU and don't ask embarrassing questions is rather loud. ucrdem May 2015 #17

i should be able to legitimately ask two legitimate political questions. and expect an answer. nt seabeyond May 2015 #24

what's embarrassing is word salad passive aggressive rhetoric cali May 2015 #45

your argument is that it was not a serious question. it was. you get to decide. then argue. really? seabeyond May 2015 #51

Indeed, hifiguy May 2015 #210

yeah lets pull back the covers and see who they really are Backwoodsrider May 2015 #33

if you are willing to pull the covers back, why are so many trippin to avoid pulling the covers back seabeyond May 2015 #53

good question Backwoodsrider May 2015 #60

we live in a world of contradiction. it behooves us to get good, living in that world. painless for seabeyond May 2015 #63

Too bad that didn't happen with Obama pull back the covers to see who he really was. SammyWinstonJack May 2015 #69

i think many many of us have, all along the way. nt seabeyond May 2015 #76

yeah he sure didnt perform as promised Backwoodsrider May 2015 #117

at this point? G_j May 2015 #121

"Holy shit" what? Wyden wanted all four bills passed. SMC22307 May 2015 #234

Yes, unnerved. Great links, thanks, but what it boils down to is "Wyden squeezed." ucrdem May 2015 #238

Who is "they"? SMC22307 May 2015 #239

LOL, read the OP and if that's inconvenient read your links. ucrdem May 2015 #240

Ha, right. I couldn't make out the word salad last night... SMC22307 May 2015 #241

Stunts are all any minority party Senator or Rep has for these kinds of issues. geek tragedy May 2015 #10

Okay so how do we know his presidential campaign isn't a stunt? ucrdem May 2015 #14

if his campaign is a stunt, then that will be revealed by the end of January 2016 nt geek tragedy May 2015 #20

i do not think the campaign is a stunt. i think sanders has a shot. nt seabeyond May 2015 #57

If you knew or read anything about the man and his history, you'd know it's not a stunt. HERVEPA May 2015 #27

putting up a bill, to jump start a campaign, declaring his position, he knows will not go anywhere seabeyond May 2015 #59

He says he's in it to win it, but even if he's not, why is it a problem? cali May 2015 #29

Using bullshit from Clinton Cash to bash the Clintons is a problem. ucrdem May 2015 #43

oh noes. he's being wholly consistent about the intersection of big cali May 2015 #58

It pretty much is treestar May 2015 #93

i would hope sanders has not given up. i would like for him to see his campaign run as if he does seabeyond May 2015 #95

i do not get what you meant in your last statement. and absolutely. stunt brings conversation. seabeyond May 2015 #19

He's been introducing similar legislation for years. cali May 2015 #25

ok. i do not know the point of your last statement. is the smae true with tpp/warren/boxer/24hrs vs seabeyond May 2015 #61

Not much it seems treestar May 2015 #92

It is a tricky question el_bryanto May 2015 #11

no. the question is. are they not making political moves, and we have to be aware and know what seabeyond May 2015 #36

They are politicians playing the game. NCTraveler May 2015 #13

They are on the same team, playing different positions. Warren, Sanders, and Hillary know that. seabeyond May 2015 #39

What you want to discuss here is very important. NCTraveler May 2015 #50

hope you are correct Backwoodsrider May 2015 #42

I truly don't need Sanders to be good at negotiating in order for him to get my vote. NCTraveler May 2015 #55

makes sense Backwoodsrider May 2015 #64

Hate to break this to you (actually, no. I enjoy it quite a bit) cali May 2015 #68

hero worship! Backwoodsrider May 2015 #119

wow. you get owned and that's all you got? lame. cali May 2015 #137

thanks for the additional info Cali Backwoodsrider May 2015 #149

Yeah, the F-35 is a boonswaggle and it represents something even bigger cali May 2015 #159

we should know who is right about Sanders in a few months Backwoodsrider May 2015 #162

yes. we must all tippy toe around not to piss people off. or they will start bullshit threads. seabeyond May 2015 #163

it has little to do with people being in his corner. It does have to cali May 2015 #172

Of course they're politicians. And if their "stunts" wil somehow benefit... SMC22307 May 2015 #15

here is the question with your comments. i have listened, read, thought about sanders bill, tpp 24hr seabeyond May 2015 #41

He has repeatedly introduced legislation to break up the "too big to fail" banks cali May 2015 #16

So if he's not very effective in passing legislation as a congressman procon May 2015 #71

He hasn't been very effective with that legislation, but here you go cali May 2015 #96

Keep to the point. procon May 2015 #130

say what? You are the one that claimed he wasn't an effective legislator cali May 2015 #156

"mix it up"??? procon May 2015 #171

hmm. cali May 2015 #183

Now its accusations and name calling??? procon May 2015 #205

It's quite obvious you don't know much about Bernie Sanders BrotherIvan May 2015 #109

Yes, that's why I'm looking for subjective information. procon May 2015 #151

It's so funny that there are all these requests for info and attempts to say "he has no plan" BrotherIvan May 2015 #158

The priorities of Senator are very different that those of a President. procon May 2015 #165

So only neoliberal proposals count as real ones? BrotherIvan May 2015 #166

I have no use for labels. procon May 2015 #175

I tend to ignore posters who try to disguise their agenda BrotherIvan May 2015 #189

well at least a lot of those with agenda are transparent in their faux concern cali May 2015 #201

because you do not agree, you claim it is faux and transparent, and can say what ever the hell seabeyond May 2015 #206

I don't think I'd miss much either way. procon May 2015 #214

that is a quite cryptic question rurallib May 2015 #21

lol. +1 cali May 2015 #30

Your op is about as related to a sincere question as a hole in the ground cali May 2015 #35

Please mention that to Bernie "Clinton Foundation Money A 'Very Serious Problem'" Sanders. ucrdem May 2015 #40

He's right. RiverLover May 2015 #65

two OPs. honest about grayson, dont hero worship. you have to take it to personal. seabeyond May 2015 #46

Oh, I did address it- and you know it. It's in my first post in this thread cali May 2015 #49

"and you know it" QUIT. that is irritating as fuck. seabeyond May 2015 #73

tough. I find your passive agressive word salad irritating as FUCK cali May 2015 #83

ya ya ya ya ya seabeyond May 2015 #85

She provided you with facts. In many posts. nt. polly7 May 2015 #88

hey... polly. seabeyond May 2015 #89

Heh! And?? polly7 May 2015 #90

Jury's in. NaturalHigh May 2015 #155

Good stuff. pintobean May 2015 #164

I was Juror #1. NaturalHigh May 2015 #195

LOL Oilwellian May 2015 #213

The bill to break up too big to fail banks was sincere and so is the opposition to the TPP think May 2015 #44

explain to me, the last 24hr tpp. populist dems says it is a stunt. i know the issues.... seabeyond May 2015 #77

Knowing that such a bill could never pass the House procon May 2015 #81

and stating sanders is gutting "too big too fail"... is hyperbole. seabeyond May 2015 #86

Yes it is. procon May 2015 #100

Sanders is a bulldog on this issue Oilwellian May 2015 #217

Sanders is a senator. All he CAN do is introduce bills. What is it you think one senator can do? djean111 May 2015 #66

I suppose it depends on how you're defining "stunt" TDale313 May 2015 #67

i chose stunt because that is the word i picked up this morning from populist du'ers describing the seabeyond May 2015 #79

There's a huge amount of anxiety and frustration TDale313 May 2015 #181

dont you think TRUTH would have been the better option. knowledge teling us it was a political move seabeyond May 2015 #185

Anyone who said the vote the other day TDale313 May 2015 #219

Trustworthiness, honesty, integrity. 99Forever May 2015 #75

ya. pretty sure you are taking this to me personally. not playing that game. seabeyond May 2015 #82

You asked a question and I gave you a honest answer. 99Forever May 2015 #112

it is not a matter of accepting it. i do not know wtf you are talking about. seabeyond May 2015 #114

That explains a lot. 99Forever May 2015 #125

What is this populist party of which you speak? hootinholler May 2015 #84

"What is this populist party of which you speak?" du has a populist group. sanders, warren, seabeyond May 2015 #87

Ok, so I answered your question. hootinholler May 2015 #98

...and Hillary cyberswede May 2015 #101

yes. we are aware clinton plays politics. see. didnt even hurt. why?, you ask. seabeyond May 2015 #105

I presume those who said cyberswede May 2015 #135

then we are hearing two different things. i have repeatedly, consistently stated economics is an seabeyond May 2015 #138

these two cannot articulate my position with the populist movement, any more clear. seabeyond May 2015 #113

I'm of the opinion that liberals support both cyberswede May 2015 #141

well. then. a basis for disagreement. but, you understand where me and others are coming from. seabeyond May 2015 #147

For you, it's a stunt AgingAmerican May 2015 #99

why are there threads this morning moaning the "dems" stunt. and adament they are done... just done! seabeyond May 2015 #107

Bernie isn't 'The Dems' AgingAmerican May 2015 #123

did he participate in it? did warren? and if they did, why are they not "the dems" and how do seabeyond May 2015 #128

And I thought the "Plan" thread couldn't be topped... whatchamacallit May 2015 #104

Back for more eh? BrotherIvan May 2015 #111

two new things happened, that i am processing. are you saying i am not allowed to ask a couple ques? seabeyond May 2015 #115

You are not asking questions BrotherIvan May 2015 #116

yes. two questions. you do not get to fabricate a story. seabeyond May 2015 #120

There are other kinds of attention besides negative attention BrotherIvan May 2015 #127

again. your conversation is personal. not playing that game. seabeyond May 2015 #129

I was actually trying to talk to you as a human being BrotherIvan May 2015 #133

by calling me a liar? lmFUGGINao seabeyond May 2015 #136

Yuck. Get over yourself. JTFrog May 2015 #223

Ditto BrotherIvan May 2015 #224

it borders on trolling at this point, BrotherIvan. hifiguy May 2015 #211

Manipulating media is how to get attention ismnotwasm May 2015 #126

like i do not buy christians have to be oh so protective of their god, i do not feel we dems need to seabeyond May 2015 #132

As opposed to what? rjsquirrel May 2015 #142

your question,answered DonCoquixote May 2015 #154

i want to know what happened yesterday. i want to know why some dems are thrown under the bus. seabeyond May 2015 #160

so, it seems the simple answer was, the dems blocked yesterday to get a couple things they wanted. seabeyond May 2015 #167

I envision Obama sitting back, thinking "Please proceed Senators" while laughing roarously. Hoyt May 2015 #157

can you expand. i would like to just have conversation from different perspectives. nt seabeyond May 2015 #161

Scenario: Republicans agree to increase VA spending by 20% if Democrats agree to ... ieoeja May 2015 #168

i thought i would actually get factual info. i thought your post was going to give me that. seabeyond May 2015 #169

The answer to your question *was* in my post. ieoeja May 2015 #174

you created a scenario, correct? to present to me what happened. why not just give me the seabeyond May 2015 #177

To demonstrate that even *you* have core principals on which you would not compromise. ieoeja May 2015 #179

i asked for facts. not a lesson from you, that you thought i ought to learn. seabeyond May 2015 #180

Well, you got a fact *and* a lesson. I'll deduct the lesson from the bill. n/t ieoeja May 2015 #182

no. you did not tell me that dems had put up four items to be added on the bill and what the four seabeyond May 2015 #187

Fact: "they compromised on a core principal". ieoeja May 2015 #215

That would not happen. Republicans would oppose everything Bernie does and feel no need stevenleser May 2015 #176

The short answer is 100% right progressively, and 100% ineffective legislatively is someone stevenleser May 2015 #170

i'm more open to sanders ability to get past that, stream line to effective if his people would pull seabeyond May 2015 #173

As you said - he has been presenting bills like this long before he started running for president. jwirr May 2015 #178

the headlines on du was... sanders guts "to big to fail". that was a false presentation of what he seabeyond May 2015 #190

I did not see the Saunders guts "too big to fail" headline - do you have a link? Also why would he jwirr May 2015 #198

gutting wallstreet or banks or whatever they used. and it happened a week ago. in gd. seabeyond May 2015 #200

lol. nice storytelling, sister. cali May 2015 #203

wtf cali. really. wtf..... seabeyond May 2015 #207

"gotta go" NaturalHigh May 2015 #204

what a bullshit statement. i have wasted my day replying to posters to this point. just plain bs seabeyond May 2015 #209

"i have wasted my day replying to posters to this point" NaturalHigh May 2015 #212

LOL Oilwellian May 2015 #220

I know. We're not "enlightened" enough. NaturalHigh May 2015 #221

And, it set the tone. pintobean May 2015 #228

It worked as intended and I know who will be blamed for being such meanies... Bonobo May 2015 #237

sanders guts "to big to fail". NaturalHigh May 2015 #208

Simple. RichVRichV May 2015 #194

For one, there isn't a "populist party". Warren DeMontague May 2015 #216

Could you try to take your time and organize your post in better English please? Dragonfli May 2015 #218

I'm not sure why you are calling doing consistently what you do a stunt. EVEN IF OTHER PEOPLE DOING TheKentuckian May 2015 #225

It's important to draw attention to progressive issues and the things we would like to achieve. dawg May 2015 #226

That "woman senator?" you were talking about is Barbara Boxer. My senator. cui bono May 2015 #227

K&R I admire your effort, keep posting. Dragonfli May 2015 #229

Do you think she really doesn't know how obvious this whole charade is? nt Bonobo May 2015 #232

Would you please quit acting as if something's being hidden? Ken Burch May 2015 #233

doesn't sound like you are really looking for information marym625 May 2015 #236

people are so busy looking for an agenda, they ignore the obvious. seabeyond May 2015 #242

done. the OP seabeyond May 2015 #243