Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
19. It's not just this case.
Fri May 15, 2015, 03:57 PM
May 2015

Though I 100% agree that this is wrong. It's our entire justice system.

A beautiful post by one of my favorites here, markpkessinger:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026482977

The Fiction of Deterrence and the Immorality of 'Retributive Justice'

Our criminal justice system is broken. We all (or almost all) know it, and we all say it. Prisoners, both violent and non-violent, and among whom are found those that have been rightfully as well as wrongfully convicted, are warehoused under brutal and inhumane conditions that are virtually guaranteed to make violent criminals more violent, to make non-violent criminals violent, and, in some cases, to force people who never before had been criminals to turn to crime, upon their release, merely to survive. We keep people in solitary confinement for weeks or months or even years on end, creating permanent psychological damage. A criminal justice system that is subject to the same human mistakes, failings and corruptions as all other systems devised by humans nevertheless presumes, in some cases, to impose ultimate, irrevocable punishment -- death -- that eliminates any and all possibility of redress in light of any mistakes or failings that may later come to light. Yet, when it comes to the criminal penalties imposed on specific, notorious criminals who have committed crimes we find to be particularly abhorrent or heinous, and about whose guilt we firmly believe we are certain, many of us are all too willing to set aside our commitment to moral and, in some cases, even legal, principle in order to satisfy a very human, but very base, desire for vengeance.

There are two prevailing concepts that are used to rationalize our broken criminal justice system. First is the notion of deterrence. If we impose harsh, brutal sentences upon people who commit crimes, then would-be criminals will think twice before committing such crimes -- or so goes the myth we tell ourselves, despite a dearth of evidence that such deterrent effect actually exists. I have come to believe the entire premise is a faulty one. First, it fails to consider that the majority of violent crimes occur in the heat of passion, in which the emotions overtake rational thought processes. Second, even in the cases involving violent crimes that are premeditated and carefully planned, a theory of deterrence rests, in the first place, on the idea that a would-be criminal undertakes a rational cost-benefit analysis of a crime he or she may be contemplating, much as a careful investor might weigh potential upside gain against potential downside loss. This is, I believe, very rarely what actually happens in the commission of criminal acts. I believe that in most cases, those who commit crimes do so having already convinced themselves, often quite irrationally, they won't get caught, and not because the potential consequences of getting caught are light enough to make the crime worth the risk of committing it. At the point they commit the crime, all thought of getting caught, and of potential consequences that would flow from that, have been put out of their minds entirely. So much for any deterrent effect!

The second concept, an idea very popular with some criminologists, is the idea of "retributive justice" -- i.e., the idea that punishing people for misdeeds is a morally justifiable, and even desirable, end in itself, that need not take account of any rehabilitative imperative or even any consideration for the well-being of the convicted criminal. The idea is that punishment somehow "balances" some cosmic (but never identified) scale of 'justice.' This, it seems to me, amounts to little more than a bunch of highfalutin, meaningless mumbo-jumbo aimed at rationalizing s system that is otherwise indefensible under any cogent system of ethics or morality. It is a way of justifying ourselves in our collective willingness to subordinate ethics and morality to the satisfaction of one of our most base human emotions. In short, the term "retributive justice" is but a gussied up term for plain old (but less acceptable in polite company) vengeance.

Some, of course, will protest that they reserve this kind of rationalization for the "worst of the worst," that what {insert name of notorious criminal of choice here} did was so uniquely heinous that he or she "deserves" whatever might be coming to him or her. But, as I pointed out yesterday in another thread, the problem with this rationale is that:

. . .invariably, we are talking about more than one case or one individual. And regardless of how heinous that one individual's actions may have been, invariably, some not-so-heinous criminals get caught up in it, too. The article mentions one Jack Powers, imprisoned for burglary as a kid, released in 1982. then married and started two businesses, both of which were bankrupt by the end of the decade. He began robbing banks -- BUT WAS NEVER ARMED, he merely passed notes to the teller demanding money. IN prison, a friend of his was murdered by the Aryan Brotherhood. Powers cooperated with prosecutors, believing he could cut a deal to get out of prison earlier, but then had to be placed in protective custody. When he got wind that prison officials were planning on transferring him to the general population, which would have put him at risk for being killed for his role in the convictions of four members of the Aryan Brotherhood, he escaped. So he wound up getting sent to ADX because he was deemed a flight risk, never mind that he was fleeing for his life.

When we talk about the criminal justice and penal systems, the conditions in prisons or the death penalty, it is important to remember that we are NEVER talking about just a single, individual case, and that invariably, people who do not remotely deserve to be kept under such brutal conditions inevitably will be. Any moral or ethical approach to these issues MUST factor in not only the 'easy' cases involving notorious, brutal criminals, but also the harder cases, which often involve less violent, or even non-violent such as Powers, prisoners who will inevitably get swept up into the system.



Society certainly has a right to protect itself by separating from the population those deemed to be a threat to others. But if a society is to call itself 'moral' or 'just,' or even 'civilized' for that matter, that right of protecting the wider society from harm carries no implicit right to abuse, harm or torture convicted criminals under some ethically tortured notion of 'retributive justice' or on the basis of an utterly fictitious narrative of 'deterrence.' And no system of ethics or morals can be called cogent if it provides 'carve outs' for cases that particularly enrage us, no matter how heinous the crime and no matter how understandable, and even justifiable, our collective rage.


This is a denial of our collective humanity.

From one of my posts:

"To begin the real focus of this post, I would like to explain why I think that compassion towards all living beings is not only important, but necessary for a continuation of a humanitarian society and further development of our morality and understanding of each other. Compassion means that we hold a respect for other beings. It means that we empathize with them. It means that we behave with a minimum of decency towards others around us. It means that even under the most dire of circumstances and in the hardest of times, despite personal challenges or feelings, we will do our best to continue to hold that respect in our actions and words.

Respect in this case does not imply that we respect another’s actions; instead, it means that we view them as something more than an inanimate object. I treat a dog differently than I would a rock. I do so because I firmly believe that the dog, unlike the rock, experiences the world. It is a fellow traveler in this temporary world of life; something that lives, breathes, understands.

Those living beings are deserving of my respect because they have just as much inherent value in the universe as I do. I am but a different type of being. As an atheist, I also see no evidence for a life other than the one I am lucky enough to have. Life is the most incredibly precious thing that exists, for me. We are here, and we are gone, and we have but a quick moment to experience the beauty of the world around us. If I deny the respect I hold for life to another living being, I diminish my own.

The Buddhist perspective is that everyone exists with some amount of basic goodness. That is not an easy view to reconcile with the horrifying things that happen in this world. But I take that perspective anyways, because I think to do otherwise denies my own humanity. If I cannot see the inherent good in psychopaths and murderers, I cannot respect them. If I do not respect them, I do not respect the value of my own life. I see those people as sick; there is no way a sane, healthy mind exists within them. With luck, future medical advances may help us to help them. But for now, I must see their humanity in order to avoid denying my own.

This is why I am so hurt by the denials of humanity that were posted here and continue to be posted here. I see people denying my own humanity when they advocate for what amounts to the torture of a living being. I see denials of my own humanity in our society’s actions. I am pained that that is being taken from me."

When that man dies, a bit of every one of us dies with him. It is morally indefensible, barbaric, and cruel.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Tell that... TeeYiYi May 2015 #1
You mean the ones who opposed him being sentenced to death? morningfog May 2015 #3
No... TeeYiYi May 2015 #21
Well, you can't get death for maiming. morningfog May 2015 #29
The families who spoke out ... TeeYiYi May 2015 #38
Whatever their reason, you are spitting in their face. morningfog May 2015 #50
You seem incredibly invested... TeeYiYi May 2015 #59
I accept your apology for your posting in ignorance. morningfog May 2015 #70
Oh my... TeeYiYi May 2015 #71
Well, we could do away with the appeals process, because, you know, mountain grammy May 2015 #86
I agree that... TeeYiYi May 2015 #110
I won't shed a tear for Tsarnaev mountain grammy May 2015 #126
Oddly, I felt a bit that way... TeeYiYi May 2015 #130
Bundy was another matter. A complete psychopath who worked alone.. mountain grammy May 2015 #132
Tsarnaev won't be dead... TeeYiYi May 2015 #140
...which is why we don't put family members on the jury. NuclearDem May 2015 #6
In this case... TeeYiYi May 2015 #17
Good for you. NuclearDem May 2015 #22
From a thread of mine... F4lconF16 May 2015 #25
You make very good emotional arguments Major Nikon May 2015 #138
Thank you, Major. TeeYiYi May 2015 #141
I don't blame those directly affected to want revenge but it won't bring peace. rhett o rick May 2015 #66
I'm not calling for revenge... TeeYiYi May 2015 #74
What is accomplished by putting him to death? nm rhett o rick May 2015 #87
Without the death panalty how will we maintain the United Barbaric States of America? Enthusiast May 2015 #95
Nothing, really... TeeYiYi May 2015 #97
he's worse than joker. he's a barbaric monster that is getting a small dose of samsingh May 2015 #69
Yep - especially that little boy's family. 840high May 2015 #91
Except his father did not want the death penalty imposed nadinbrzezinski May 2015 #94
In our justice system, the wishes of the injured or their relatives do not control the outcome. Yo_Mama May 2015 #104
I understand that nadinbrzezinski May 2015 #106
Well, he'll only be a martyr to those who think what he did was justified. Yo_Mama May 2015 #114
I oppose it in all circumstances nadinbrzezinski May 2015 #115
I see the argument against the DP in all cases. Yo_Mama May 2015 #117
I think the country will have to grapple with it nadinbrzezinski May 2015 #120
The ones who announced that they opposed the death penalty... Agschmid May 2015 #113
I am 100% opposed to the death penalty. We are a warlike and violent culture. NYC_SKP May 2015 #2
I totally agree with you. avebury May 2015 #11
Amen..... daleanime May 2015 #30
Kind of a default position or should be for anyone claiming to be a liberal NoJusticeNoPeace May 2015 #32
I think it should be reserved for certain cases snooper2 May 2015 #40
Wrong in all cases Gore1FL May 2015 #64
And what of the innocent who die in prison? Lancero May 2015 #112
Right you are! immoderate May 2015 #43
agreed! nt steve2470 May 2015 #58
I absolutely agree and am disappointed to see posters here claiming to be "politically liberal" rhett o rick May 2015 #67
I, for one, am not calling for revenge... haikugal May 2015 #82
The question is, why put someone to death? nm rhett o rick May 2015 #84
let me give you another AMEN etherealtruth May 2015 #79
On the verdict: Death penalty is just. Discuss ... Lil Missy May 2015 #4
What is it, then? nt F4lconF16 May 2015 #28
Justice n/t Lil Missy May 2015 #37
Why? F4lconF16 May 2015 #39
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind uppityperson May 2015 #41
Because we dont allow family to determine punishment Telcontar May 2015 #53
A good point. F4lconF16 May 2015 #54
I am opposed to the death penalty as well Telcontar May 2015 #135
Lol, yes it is revenge, what other reason is there? nt Logical May 2015 #42
No remorse from him. In this case it's justice. 840high May 2015 #93
What a lot of people don't get is this: catnhatnh May 2015 #5
Well said. nt F4lconF16 May 2015 #33
Opposing the death penalty has nothing to do with those sentenced to it. Maedhros May 2015 #55
Yes. It's not about the person sentenced. TDale313 May 2015 #85
I agree with you it is wrong. hrmjustin May 2015 #7
As long as there is due process and a fair trial, what is wrong with revenge? bluestateguy May 2015 #8
Because revenge is what the justice system exists to prevent. NuclearDem May 2015 #15
Not related to this case but had you heard the Scalia's opinion avebury May 2015 #23
This can't be a surprise for him. zappaman May 2015 #9
The death penalty is backwards, too expensive, and doesn't work as a deterrent. NuclearDem May 2015 #10
Oh no. Rhiannon12866 May 2015 #12
Isn't Life without Parole a revenge too FLPanhandle May 2015 #13
I agree that life without parole is not rehabilitation. CaliforniaPeggy May 2015 #26
Technically the death penalty does the same thing FLPanhandle May 2015 #99
Yes. F4lconF16 May 2015 #31
Here's hoping he moves phil89 May 2015 #51
Problems with that Egnever May 2015 #68
It's not easy. F4lconF16 May 2015 #80
I agree wholeheartedly. I would add cruel. haikugal May 2015 #89
and this attitude is why I support the death penalty FLPanhandle May 2015 #100
Shame on the United States, shame on the DOJ, shame on the US government, shame on the jury. morningfog May 2015 #14
I'm against the DP in all cases, this one is no exception. Coventina May 2015 #16
It is justice. Throd May 2015 #18
Why? nt F4lconF16 May 2015 #34
It's not just this case. F4lconF16 May 2015 #19
Ridiculous assertions. phil89 May 2015 #52
You have little claim to the moral high ground, Maedhros May 2015 #56
add me to... stonecutter357 May 2015 #88
I agree. Maybe we could get a gang and break him out, drag him with a rope behind a car until his jtuck004 May 2015 #131
I'm completely opposed to the death penalty in MineralMan May 2015 #20
Most sentences have an element of revenge aikoaiko May 2015 #24
I couldn't agree more. MindPilot May 2015 #27
There are those who get a vicarious thrill when the State employs deadly force, Maedhros May 2015 #57
2 wrongs don't make a right . olddots May 2015 #35
The death penalty is not a deterrent and it will take decades before it is applied csziggy May 2015 #36
Very well expressed and I couldn't have said anything better Rhiannon12866 May 2015 #44
That's my sentiment, as well. hamsterjill May 2015 #72
In such a case sarisataka May 2015 #45
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2015 #46
That quote is one of my favorites and so perfect. Thank you! n/t CaliforniaPeggy May 2015 #47
You're welcome. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2015 #48
+1,000 n/t malaise May 2015 #63
No discussion malaise May 2015 #49
Punishment and revenge... yallerdawg May 2015 #62
I'm opposed to the state killing its citizens. However -- Nuclear Unicorn May 2015 #60
Considering that there are certain middle aged and elderly "statesmen" Cleita May 2015 #61
excellent points! nt steve2470 May 2015 #65
Revenge is not justice. Revenge is never fair. Justice, in its highest sense, is total fairness. Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #73
There is nothing that can possibly equalize in many cases - Yo_Mama May 2015 #105
Revenge could never be an equalizer, that's like saying a gun is an equalizer. The only thing that Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #108
We cannot heal those dead, maimed, their families, or even the surviving Tsarnaev Yo_Mama May 2015 #116
Healing is always possible. To give up on healing is to give up on life itself, for healing is Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #118
Healing is only possible for those still living with the capacity to be whole. Yo_Mama May 2015 #119
"I see no way that we cannot inflict harm on Tsarnaev in order to prevent more casualties." Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #121
It's not truth. It's just an emotion based assertion. phil89 May 2015 #128
"To revenge kill is to destroy, which is the opposite of life-affirming. This is greater truth." Dont call me Shirley May 2015 #139
I think the discussion boils down to "no, that statement is false". Donald Ian Rankin May 2015 #75
If I were on the Jury, I would be torn in deciding the verdict. dem in texas May 2015 #76
Then what is justice? Rex May 2015 #77
The people on that jury were able/prepared to issue a death sentence. MADem May 2015 #78
Life in isolation in a super-max or death... MerryBlooms May 2015 #81
Well, he'll be doing a good long stretch in a federal pen in Indiana, on death row. MADem May 2015 #92
I'm personally anti death penalty. MerryBlooms May 2015 #111
He's been in solitary since he's been arrested. He's at an old military base now, I think. MADem May 2015 #134
Yep. MerryBlooms May 2015 #136
Justice is best for society. Vengeance is best for the individual. n/t rock May 2015 #83
It is called the death penalty, yet it is calculated murder and wrong for any country to Jefferson23 May 2015 #90
I was raised by a Jewish mother who used to say: mountain grammy May 2015 #96
Agree 100-percent. Octafish May 2015 #98
it's mostly revenge bigtree May 2015 #101
There could be a Great Philosophical debate here ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #102
I agree, and way too many people have been convicted on false and flimsy evidence steve2470 May 2015 #124
I strongly disagree with the description of this as revenge. Yo_Mama May 2015 #103
And I strongly feel that I used the correct language for me. CaliforniaPeggy May 2015 #125
Yes you did... TeeYiYi May 2015 #127
Thank you, my dear TeeYiYi... CaliforniaPeggy May 2015 #129
The child killer workinclasszero May 2015 #107
The needle goes in xfundy May 2015 #109
I agree. /nt workinclasszero May 2015 #122
justice = life in prison until he dies steve2470 May 2015 #123
2 wrongs don't make a right spanone May 2015 #133
Yes it is JonLP24 May 2015 #137
All revenge does is continue the cycle of hate and violence. liberal_at_heart May 2015 #142
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»On the Verdict: Revenge i...»Reply #19