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In reply to the discussion: NAFTA passed on Nov. 20, 1993, on the promise of jobs. Oddly enough . . . [View all]pampango
(24,692 posts)137. Agreed. Tariffs did not cause the depression. They caused tremendous income inequality but not
the Depression.
We always had tariffs at various levels since the beginning of the country.
And the working class hated them.
The Hidden Progressive History of Income Tax
Everyday Americans hated the tax system of the Gilded Age. The federal government gathered taxes in two ways. First, it placed high tariff rates on imports. These import taxes protected American industries from competition. This allowed companies to charge high prices on products that the working class needed to survive while also protecting the monopolies that controlled their everyday lives. Second, the government had high excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol, two products used heavily by the American working class.
The income tax was the most popular economic justice movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. This truly grassroots movement forced politicians to act in order to stay in office, leading to the 16th Amendment to the Constitution in 1913. Thats right, the income tax was so popular that the nation passed a constitutional amendment so that the right-wing Supreme Court couldnt overturn it.
http://www.alternet.org/labor/hidden-progressive-history-income-tax?akid=9361.277129.2KDGDd&rd=1&src=newsletter706781&t=14
The rise of the income tax (which taxed the wealthy) and the demise of the tariff (which taxed the middle and working classes) was a progressive victory though it was reversed in the 1920's by republican presidents and congresses that slashed income taxes and restored high tariffs. Thankfully, under FDR income taxes were raised on the rich and tariffs were cut.
Regarding Europe they have a 15% VAT tax on all imports ...
The VAT is not a tariff since it applies the same to imports and domestically-produced goods. The VAT increases the cost to consumers of German-made goods so it is fair to apply the same VAT to imports. That's also why it does not reduce imports. If the US wants to adopt a 15% VAT we can do that. It will raise the cost of stuff we make here by 15% when we buy it, but we will be able to then apply a 15% VAT on imports so they don't have an artificial advantage from us adopting a VAT.
They have a myriad of trade protections ...
If they do, they are not very effective 'trade protections' since Germany imports twice as much as we do and every other European country comes close to that. How is it that countries with 'trade protections' import at a much higher rate than the US (which does not have such 'protections')?
IOWs, they don't buy off on ridiculous notions of Globalism like we do.
Any country in which trade is 70% of the economy is more into "globalism" than is a country in which trade is 23% of the economy. A country that was 'anti-globalism' would trade very little and believe more in national self-sufficiency, e.g. the US under republicans from 1920 to 1932.
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NAFTA passed on Nov. 20, 1993, on the promise of jobs. Oddly enough . . . [View all]
ucrdem
May 2015
OP
After seeing the ridiculous distortions launched here daily for the last 6 months
ucrdem
May 2015
#2
But you keep telling us that we don't know what's in the TPP. I asked where the information
rhett o rick
May 2015
#169
What are you talking about? Of course TPP would repeal NAFTA. Or "replace" if you prefer.
Recursion
May 2015
#145
You do realize that there is no such concept as "implied repeal" in international law, don't you?
OrwellwasRight
May 2015
#189
I've heard all the good stuff after NAFTA was either unrelated or just good luck. All the bad stuff
pampango
May 2015
#4
The dot com boom, remember that, was the reason for the rise in jobs in the 90s. . .
brush
May 2015
#103
Got it. When things go well under a Democratic president after NAFTA, he's just lucky there was
pampango
May 2015
#130
The trend existed for 15 years before NAFTA, reversed course after it, then resumed the pre-NAFTA
pampango
May 2015
#134
This is the most shame-faced lie of them all. The dot-com boom destroyed *millions* of jobs
Recursion
May 2015
#147
Yes, the big three were late to the 'game, complacent in their supremacy in the US market...
Spazito
May 2015
#14
There is almost an insular thinking when it comes to discussion of trade agreements...
Spazito
May 2015
#106
So your answer is to sit around and do nothing and just hope for the best?
OrwellwasRight
May 2015
#115
That was a time when countries like India, China, Japan, etc, were not competative...
Spazito
May 2015
#111
The only period of high tariffs in the US in the 20th century was under republicans from 1920-1932.
pampango
May 2015
#135
Agreed. Tariffs did not cause the depression. They caused tremendous income inequality but not
pampango
May 2015
#137
I think a VAT has a lot to offer. While it raises the cost to consumers of all goods, imported and
pampango
May 2015
#139
"The end of the 19th century saw corporations at their height of influence and power"
Joe Turner
May 2015
#140
Good point. Republican administrations tended to raise tariffs (as with the Dingley Act of 1897)
pampango
May 2015
#162
If past is prologue I'd say this is a pretty good argument for nominating Clinton this time around.
ucrdem
May 2015
#10
Other countries don't have that problem. They have tarriffs to protect their products.
rhett o rick
May 2015
#50
Long and short: the talking point that NAFTA gutted US employment appears to be unsubstantiated. nt
ucrdem
May 2015
#17
So much of what is blamed on NAFTA today was a direct result of technological advance.
NCTraveler
May 2015
#31
Are you sure that Sen Kerry is free to discuss it with her? And even with no "public parts"
rhett o rick
May 2015
#53
Are you saying the computer/tech revolution had nothing to do with jobs being created?
kentuck
May 2015
#59
There's a bazillion ways to deny it but it happened. US jobs went up for 6 straight years
ucrdem
May 2015
#56
Yeah, all those great paying service jobs in the new service economy.
Dont call me Shirley
May 2015
#60
Average hourly wages also rose steadily in that period, in current and constant $:
ucrdem
May 2015
#63
I love peas, but not the constant pay cuts we've been forced to swallow
Dont call me Shirley
May 2015
#65
Not for us, barely a rise in early 2000, then cuts cuts cuts cuts cuts since the crash
Dont call me Shirley
May 2015
#68
Nafta, the repeal of key financial safeguards, CFMA, Cafta, they all have caused the financial
Dont call me Shirley
May 2015
#70
Here is what the working poor look like, bravenak. Breaks my heart.
Dont call me Shirley
May 2015
#78
Time for a progressive mass movement creating democratic workplaces. Make the rich obsolete.
Dont call me Shirley
May 2015
#82
I don't for my purposes here, which are to show that Bill delivered on his promises
ucrdem
May 2015
#72
I've shown that passing NAFTA didn't lead to a net job loss, and that the US economy grew
ucrdem
May 2015
#75
So the stats are wrong and the secret hidden invisible truth contradicting them is sacrosanct?
ucrdem
May 2015
#86
You seem to forget that lack of correlation precludes causation, which is all OP's argument needs
Recursion
May 2015
#157
It's statistical correlation. The measure of the accuracy of a numerical relationship between...
Taitertots
May 2015
#175
Sort of. It's a moment of a random variable derived from two random variables.
Recursion
May 2015
#177
The problem with your argument is, this is the same data used to indict NAFTA as a job killer.
ucrdem
May 2015
#174
The purpose of NAFTA was to free corporations from labor and environmental laws.
alarimer
May 2015
#128
Well, they're wrong about average US wages, which rose, and blaming offshoring on NAFTA is dumb.
ucrdem
May 2015
#141
Everybody needs a scapegoat, and here it's "trade". On other sites it's "immigrants"
Recursion
May 2015
#161
That first chart looks horrifying. What years after NAFTA is NAFTA not responsible for?
Romulox
May 2015
#180
Your "notes" make nothing clear. It's just a naked assertion with no facts or reason to back it up.
Romulox
May 2015
#182
The point is that NAFTA didn't wreck the economy 2001-2009. Bush and Cheney did. nt
ucrdem
May 2015
#184