General Discussion

jeff47

(26,549 posts)

156. No, the facts are fine. Your analysis of the facts is wrong.

Fri May 22, 2015, 10:28 AM

May 2015

The fact of what Clinton voted for is not the dispute.

The larger meaning you are trying to attach to those facts is wrong.

"I'm the tallest person in my house." That's a fact - My wife is slightly shorter than me, and my two children are currently much shorter.

"Therefore, I am a tall man." That is analysis, based on that previous fact. And it is wrong. It only relies on the first fact instead of the much larger pool of facts that exist in the world.

Clinton cast certain votes on bills that reached the floor of the Senate. Those votes are facts. The meaning you are attempting to apply to those votes is false, because it ignores the larger pool of facts that exist. There are bills that do not reach the floor that don't count, and the analysis scores a vote for "not liberal enough" as "conservative".

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Hillary was liberal, Hillary IS Liberal [View all] MaggieD May 2015 OP

K&R! hrmjustin May 2015 #1

"Being liberal" needs more specifics on what is measured. As an example Hillary is NOT liberal... cascadiance May 2015 #2

Her votes MaggieD May 2015 #15

I guess it is still too hard for you to deal with specific "liberal" issues... cascadiance May 2015 #34

They've been tallied and outlined in the article. MaggieD May 2015 #55

I agree, tho more applicable to Hillary would be WAS an triangulater, IS a triangulater and WILL ALWAYS BE a triangulater... InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #155

we NEED a democrat. this is where populist is skewed batshit crazy. we NEED a democrat. we seabeyond May 2015 #161

Here's the thing about these "vote tallies" Scootaloo May 2015 #88

The methodology of that study was rather goofy. Jackpine Radical May 2015 #154

Yup. Which is why I say to use the actual votes Scootaloo May 2015 #202

Cool MFrohike May 2015 #3

Well according to a lot of people on DU, economics doesn't matter, only social justice matters. cui bono May 2015 #117

I do think stuff like this might - maybe - be useful if Hillary wins the nomination djean111 May 2015 #4

"lesser evil thing" just intellectually stupid and dishonest. if one needs to argue that, then seabeyond May 2015 #7

Not true at all. cui bono May 2015 #119

When much of Hillary criticism is countered with "SAY HELLO TO PRESIDENT CRUZ", I would have to djean111 May 2015 #138

when equating repug the same as clinton, i question your democratic position, yes. seabeyond May 2015 #145

Then stop using the lesser evil argument. jeff47 May 2015 #160

what a convoluted argument. and a whole lot of wtf. we need a dem... 2016. that is the argument seabeyond May 2015 #163

Then you're arguing for Bernie or O'Malley or Clinton. Not just Clinton. jeff47 May 2015 #167

"Then you're arguing for Bernie or O'Malley or Clinton." correct. as i have said, repeatedly. seabeyond May 2015 #172

Hillary is my first choice. hrmjustin May 2015 #8

Not lesser enough for me. Fuddnik May 2015 #115

Your choice. hrmjustin May 2015 #143

No lesser evil voting for me. EVER again. 840high May 2015 #10

are you another, in this now often heard meme, not voting clinton if she wins? seabeyond May 2015 #14

i'll write in Bernie's name. 840high May 2015 #19

mmmm, so this is a fuck you, to all the people whose lives matter with this election. seabeyond May 2015 #20

This is a fuck you to the Dems 840high May 2015 #22

and you in turn, say fuck you to the women and girls whose lives are at stake. seabeyond May 2015 #23

sorry - save your breath - i want to vote 840high May 2015 #28

save my breathe to appease your want? no. not when lives matter. you feel your little sec flash of seabeyond May 2015 #30

Then maybe the Democrats should produce a better candidate jeff47 May 2015 #35

awfully cavalier with our women and girls lives. and you all are the good guys? seabeyond May 2015 #37

They're purity trolls... ConservativeDemocrat May 2015 #111

What are you "Conservative" about? LeftOfWest May 2015 #114

I've explained this before, but... ConservativeDemocrat May 2015 #174

Guns, God & Israel... Violet_Crumble May 2015 #231

Again, something I have said before... ConservativeDemocrat May 2015 #239

No, the people insisting we repeat our loss of 1968 are the cavalier ones jeff47 May 2015 #162

our girls and women are dying. it will get worse. they are being inPRISONED because of seabeyond May 2015 #165

If you are so concerned about that issue, why repeat what you already know failed? jeff47 May 2015 #168

i KNOW obama's supreme court picks. i do not see a fail. that you do, shows you are not even seabeyond May 2015 #173

Thank you. 840high May 2015 #224

Good post. 840high May 2015 #277

Do you really believe that Hillary is the only Dem candidate that cares about women and girls' lives cui bono May 2015 #259

Unlike you I care about all lives - not 840high May 2015 #275

so. you turn your back on the lives of women and girls, and claim the high road. seabeyond May 2015 #278

The Democrats choose who they want treestar May 2015 #253

If lives matter so much, make sure the Dems get a candidate people can get excited about. cui bono May 2015 #120

IF lives matter so much? so, if you do not get one you want, then you can walk from those lives? seabeyond May 2015 #147

I'm not going to vote for someone who isn't fighting for the 99%, who supports the banksters cui bono May 2015 #179

Hillary does stand for working people. NYC Liberal May 2015 #256

Clinton is extremely similar to Obama and his policies are moderate Republican policies. cui bono May 2015 #263

K & R, really good post. Hillary has been advocating for Democrat platform issues for a long time. Thinkingabout May 2015 #279

Clinton won't save lives. 840high May 2015 #225

if we lose the surpreme court, we lose women and girls lives. that matters. seabeyond May 2015 #234

We're not in the general election yet. That is not an issue in the primary. cui bono May 2015 #257

i am talking to the people that state they will NOT vote clinton if she wins. i think i make that seabeyond May 2015 #265

I didn't think it was clear. What was clear is my saying I will not vote for her since my state is cui bono May 2015 #266

i have only said it about ten times in this thread. you found ONE post i didnt clarify? my bad seabeyond May 2015 #267

If lives matter soooo much to you then PLEASE tell me how Exilednight May 2015 #134

...^ that 840high May 2015 #226

if we lose the surpeme court, we will lose more women and girls lives. more imprisonment seabeyond May 2015 #233

If she really cared, she would never have voted for Exilednight May 2015 #237

i have to wonder your obsession ignoring the importance of supr crt for our girls and women. seabeyond May 2015 #238

I have to wonder your obsession to ignore the question. Here's a second Exilednight May 2015 #240

that is totally irrelevant. my goal is to elect a dem. you want an argument about clinton, seabeyond May 2015 #241

who controls the SC with a 5-4 majority now? Exilednight May 2015 #242

again. that has nothing to do with anything. we have three very old. we need to be in position seabeyond May 2015 #243

You're arguing about court appointees to control the court, and you try to Exilednight May 2015 #244

it is simple. we do need control in supreme court. do you have an issue with that also? seabeyond May 2015 #245

Who comtrols the SC with a 5-4 margin? Be honest. Exilednight May 2015 #246

i do not think i have ever replied to you in past. i wont be in the future. seabeyond May 2015 #248

Well if you find joy in losing, then the 2016 election should be positively gleeful for you. nt okaawhatever May 2015 #131

Where did 840 say they found joy in losing? n/t cui bono May 2015 #260

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2015 #133

Oh, another misogynist that wants the destruction of all women and girls!! Bonobo May 2015 #135

want? maybe a handful. mostly, can care less about women and girls for their own self interest. seabeyond May 2015 #148

Hyperventilate much? Just make it up as you go? Katashi_itto May 2015 #136

flinging shit to see what sticks? seabeyond May 2015 #149

No. I that's your department. Katashi_itto May 2015 #219

Couple questions... Scootaloo May 2015 #203

we are comparing past kills with present and future kills of our women and girls and black men? seabeyond May 2015 #204

The killing and raping of women in these areas occurs on a daily basis. polly7 May 2015 #205

ok. now polly. how about THIS country we live in and govern. you think we might focus on our dead seabeyond May 2015 #206

You said, the PAST, dismissing the horror those women and girls are facing today. polly7 May 2015 #207

ivasion of iraq is the past. hence my discussion. i am NOT comparing kills. i do not know how much seabeyond May 2015 #209

The invasion has spawned a whole region of horror. It is not in the past - the results are being polly7 May 2015 #211

As Polly notes, they're ongoing Scootaloo May 2015 #208

as YOU said, ... iraq invasion! and as i said to molly, i will not compare deaths.... seabeyond May 2015 #210

LMAO ... molly. That's a few times you've done that now. It's 'polly'. Tricky! nt. polly7 May 2015 #213

Maybe you can use 'peabeyond' from now on. cui bono May 2015 #269

!!! polly7 May 2015 #273

It's not "comparing deaths" Scootaloo May 2015 #214

if people advocate not to vote clinton if she wins primary, if they do not vote, they work toward seabeyond May 2015 #216

Clearly only American Lives Matter... Violet_Crumble May 2015 #232

not, clearly. your agenda driven. you and others dismiss our girls and womens lives and imprisonment seabeyond May 2015 #235

No, Seabeyond. It's not a focus on one to the exclusion of the other thing... Violet_Crumble May 2015 #280

if hillary wins the primary, NOT voting. that is the issue vc. not primary, not two candidates. seabeyond May 2015 #281

Well stated Violet! nt. polly7 May 2015 #282

except the discussion isnt about the primary, but wtf! well stated! seabeyond May 2015 #283

What? polly7 May 2015 #284

Thank you. polly7 May 2015 #212

Didn't she say something like "we came, we 840high May 2015 #227

And odn't forget the women in our own armed forces raped by their fellow servicemen. cui bono May 2015 #268

that's your motive, really? treestar May 2015 #254

...^ that 840high May 2015 #276

Isn't that against the rules here? DCBob May 2015 #139

yes. to advocate do not vote dem, or third party is against the TOS. nt seabeyond May 2015 #150

Sanders is Dem candidate. 840high May 2015 #228

which has NOTHING to do with my comment. seabeyond May 2015 #236

I do not believe abstaining is against the rules. cui bono May 2015 #270

Ya know; if there were ever a group of posts that seemed paid for... cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #17

LOL. DURHAM D May 2015 #25

So we are openly saying people ard paid to post here now? hrmjustin May 2015 #33

Just an observation, not an accusation. You however, may feel free to infer whatever you like. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #39

Oh just an observation, of course. hrmjustin May 2015 #43

No "is", no "are", but there is an "if" in the post. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #91

I hope you didn't blush while you were trying to be cute. hrmjustin May 2015 #93

No but the bruise is gonna take a few days to disappear. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #106

S/he may not be being paid... cui bono May 2015 #121

Trolling is in the eye of the beholder. hrmjustin May 2015 #144

Trolling is in the eye of the admin Fumesucker May 2015 #261

Well put. hrmjustin May 2015 #262

And...? cui bono May 2015 #271

No you didn't. hrmjustin May 2015 #272

I'm willing to get paid for it.... MaggieD May 2015 #42

I was gonna say I know a lobbyist for Monsanto but I got nothin' really. n/t cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #107

Dang MaggieD May 2015 #110

She's a self-proclaimed "job provider" (her words and language not often used around here). stillwaiting May 2015 #137

Would you feel better... MaggieD May 2015 #183

The problem that I have with you is how over-the-top you are with your mocking and stillwaiting May 2015 #200

Compared to what? MaggieD May 2015 #218

You do come from a place of financial privilege. I didn't say anything about your upbringing. stillwaiting May 2015 #220

Thanks for the lecture MaggieD May 2015 #221

I wouldn't bet a red cent on that. You're going to do what you enjoy doing. stillwaiting May 2015 #222

i appreciate your posts, for being informative and snark free. meh.. nt seabeyond May 2015 #223

So if Hillary wins the nomination you're not going to vote at all? pnwmom May 2015 #113

Well I'm not voting for her if she wins. cui bono May 2015 #122

You're deluding yourself if you think that sitting out the election means you're not assisting pnwmom May 2015 #128

I won't be sitting out the election. I will simply not be voting for the president. cui bono May 2015 #129

you and others are just creating a campaign that is more and more exclusive. and you do not get it. seabeyond May 2015 #152

Exclusive? I think not. cui bono May 2015 #176

i do not care a hoot about your enthusiasm. i expect a democrat to support the democratic party. seabeyond May 2015 #185

You do understand that 'enthusiasm' and 'excitement' mean that the candidate lives up cui bono May 2015 #190

i understand that live are at stake this election. there are those casually dismissing lives. seabeyond May 2015 #196

And you're telling me this because.... cui bono May 2015 #217

Thank you. 840high May 2015 #229

You expect??? Now that's funny. 840high May 2015 #249

"i expect a democrat to support the democratic party." you get you are on a democratic board, right? seabeyond May 2015 #250

I support Sanders. Keep on expecting. 840high May 2015 #274

How so? Bobbie Jo May 2015 #251

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2015 #132

Yes she is. KMOD May 2015 #5

You're welcome MaggieD May 2015 #13

Hillary's often come to lately social liberalism is rarely the problem. TM99 May 2015 #6

Social Issues? MaggieD May 2015 #24

Are you fucking kidding me? TM99 May 2015 #29

Did Hillary come out for DADT and DOMA? hrmjustin May 2015 #36

. KMOD May 2015 #41

I marched we ith her in 2000 and 2001 in the Pride parade. hrmjustin May 2015 #44

Exactly. She has been awesome to the GLBT community MaggieD May 2015 #46

Second that. DURHAM D May 2015 #80

That's the HRC I know too MaggieD May 2015 #82

Meeting Hillary way back then DURHAM D May 2015 #87

That is awesome. KMOD May 2015 #52

They were great days but the 2010 one was better because we got marriage equality the day before. hrmjustin May 2015 #57

I remember that! MaggieD May 2015 #66

Yes it was. hrmjustin May 2015 #73

That was an awesome day for NYS. KMOD May 2015 #67

I remember crying as the vote the day the vote came down. hrmjustin May 2015 #75

:) KMOD May 2015 #81

I did too MaggieD May 2015 #86

As I have said, she is incongruent. TM99 May 2015 #49

As a gay man i am always happy to see come to our side. hrmjustin May 2015 #54

Of course, I do too. TM99 May 2015 #59

On this one my friend we disagree. hrmjustin May 2015 #60

I Know we are in disaggrement here. TM99 May 2015 #63

. hrmjustin May 2015 #65

The Clinton's were instrumental in bringing us to this point. KMOD May 2015 #58

How can you read the facts and history as it truly was TM99 May 2015 #61

Because we LIVED it MaggieD May 2015 #69

+1 cui bono May 2015 #123

Because it's true. KMOD May 2015 #198

No I'm not kidding you MaggieD May 2015 #45

It isn't always about the money. TM99 May 2015 #56

Hillary is not Bill MaggieD May 2015 #62

I know that the only thing important to you in politics is money. TM99 May 2015 #68

Easy for you to say.... MaggieD May 2015 #72

You know nothing about my life for you to make TM99 May 2015 #76

Are you GLBT? MaggieD May 2015 #79

I do not like identity politics. TM99 May 2015 #84

Identity politics? MaggieD May 2015 #90

Identity politics TM99 May 2015 #96

No it doesn't MaggieD May 2015 #98

Her history is incongruent. TM99 May 2015 #100

No they aren't MaggieD May 2015 #102

Should we call this straightsplain? nt DURHAM D May 2015 #92

Sounds like it MaggieD May 2015 #94

I lived it too. TM99 May 2015 #71

You're gay? MaggieD May 2015 #77

Bullshit! TM99 May 2015 #89

Should we thank him for press releases? MaggieD May 2015 #95

Thank him for his votes. TM99 May 2015 #97

She wasn't in congress then MaggieD May 2015 #99

Dude, I am done with you. TM99 May 2015 #101

No I don't MaggieD May 2015 #104

Yes, you do. TM99 May 2015 #105

No, I really don't MaggieD May 2015 #108

Yes and, that is why I here so many Rs in my area say they like Hillary and would vote for her. Hiraeth May 2015 #177

OK, let's tally: HooptieWagon May 2015 #9

... 840high May 2015 #11

The article already tallied - her votes MaggieD May 2015 #12

The MOST important vote a Senator faces is to vote on war. HooptieWagon May 2015 #16

She did get that wrong - yes MaggieD May 2015 #51

Obviously not a serious list, and definately not KMOD May 2015 #50

But besides those Doctor_J May 2015 #64

Best response ever. Change has come May 2015 #103

RW talking points, not liberal. Thinkingabout May 2015 #109

Hm... so facts are now right wing talking points? cui bono May 2015 #124

Let's see... Dr Hobbitstein May 2015 #171

5th Rec Hekate May 2015 #18

Voting to invade Iraq was "liberal"? Strange definition you have there n/t eridani May 2015 #21

By all means - don't vote for her because of that MaggieD May 2015 #31

My first primary vote will never be for an Iraq war supposrter eridani May 2015 #40

I haven't seen anyone accuse Ted Cruz of being centrist. cui bono May 2015 #125

Liberal in a Lloyd Blankfein kind of way. JEB May 2015 #26

I can't vote for someone I ALREADY don't trust. Bonobo May 2015 #27

Hey look! It's the same shitty metric as last week and the week before! jeff47 May 2015 #32

So facts are meaningless MaggieD May 2015 #48

But it's not factual. Dawgs May 2015 #141

So facts are meaningless MaggieD May 2015 #178

No, the facts are fine. Your analysis of the facts is wrong. jeff47 May 2015 #156

I believe that people who are smart enough in life but are willing to sell out... MrMickeysMom May 2015 #38

She was more liberal than 85% in her votes MaggieD May 2015 #47

What did you just write? MrMickeysMom May 2015 #140

But the hillarians claim that a liberal can't get elected president. Wait. Doctor_J May 2015 #53

^^ BrotherIvan May 2015 #112

No, they don't brooklynite May 2015 #151

You mean a "leftist" like one of the most liberal senators? jeff47 May 2015 #157

I'd say she's center-left, which puts her in the mainstream of Democratic voters and policy makers.. brooklynite May 2015 #166

Then you'll have to stop arguing she's one of the most liberal senators. jeff47 May 2015 #169

I've never made that argument... brooklynite May 2015 #175

A liberal by the definition adopted by members of the board who say Hillary isn't one treestar May 2015 #255

. PowerToThePeople May 2015 #70

You are adorable. KMOD May 2015 #74

Liberal with the truth? Bonobo May 2015 #78

hahahaha KMOD May 2015 #83

You can't determine how liberal someone is through a mathematical equation. Bjorn Against May 2015 #85

"Clinton was one of the most liberal members during her time in the Senate" cui bono May 2015 #116

If Bernie is the only liberal left in the whole wide world MaggieD May 2015 #118

You really like to pretend I said things I never said. cui bono May 2015 #126

Or we can blame it on reality MaggieD May 2015 #127

You're telling me! cui bono May 2015 #130

You can't have it both ways MaggieD. Dawgs May 2015 #142

The dinos and fan clubs don't deal in reality at all Doctor_J May 2015 #153

Yep. I used to find it funnier, now it usually just makes me sad. nt raouldukelives May 2015 #188

I never said he couldn't get anything done.... MaggieD May 2015 #194

On some things, on others not so much. hobbit709 May 2015 #146

The 1,000,000+ Iraqi civilian dead take great consolation in the KingCharlemagne May 2015 #158

Who are Hillary's economic advisors? JDPriestly May 2015 #159

Do you think Ghilarducci or Boushey will serve as Secretary of the Treasury? Octafish May 2015 #180

No way. They are for show. JDPriestly May 2015 #195

The profoundly conservative business of the Senate still fails as a measure of liberalism. Orsino May 2015 #164

Obama was "more liberal than Obama"... sendero May 2015 #182

here is the thing, all you that immediately jumped on my ass cause i called populist... seabeyond May 2015 #170

"personally. in real life. that is when i say. how dare you...." NaturalHigh May 2015 #285

they get to own walking away from the lives of our girls and boys, if they chose to not vote 2016 seabeyond May 2015 #287

Frankly I would respect you more if you would just say... NaturalHigh May 2015 #288

you would respect lying? what the fuck ever. i think that says all about your agenda. anyway seabeyond May 2015 #289

"i think that says all about your agenda" NaturalHigh May 2015 #290

except i am not calling you a liar, telling you what you think, and demanding you abide by my story. seabeyond May 2015 #291

I guess that "left suckered by the right into anti-Hillary talking points" meme flopped. marmar May 2015 #181

It didn't flop - it's going on daily MaggieD May 2015 #186

Yet you feel the need to post these things constantly...... marmar May 2015 #189

I do - want to know why? MaggieD May 2015 #191

Absolutely right. Bobbie Jo May 2015 #192

It's all part of her 'evolution' AgingAmerican May 2015 #184

And he will continue to NOT be president MaggieD May 2015 #187

You guys need some new memes AgingAmerican May 2015 #193

This is a fun game! Warren Stupidity May 2015 #197

Hillary was a friend of Goldman Sachs, Hillary is a friend of Goldman Sachs Doctor_J May 2015 #199

Much more fun than actually discussing issues. Warren Stupidity May 2015 #201

I like Hillary, but she's still too right wing in many ways bobjacksonk2832 May 2015 #215

Hopefully some Clinton supporter will read this TM99 May 2015 #230

Until she gets elected, that is DiverDave May 2015 #247

The idea she is not liberal is hilarious treestar May 2015 #252

So true MaggieD May 2015 #258

She sounds, and I quote what you often say about Bernie here, Maggie, Exilednight May 2015 #264

And while Obama is also a �hard core liberal"... NaturalHigh May 2015 #286