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ucrdem

(15,720 posts)
125. More on ISDS from USTR:
Sun May 24, 2015, 04:05 PM
May 2015
Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS)

What is ISDS?

ISDS is a neutral, international arbitration procedure. Like other forms of commercial, labor, or judicial arbitration, ISDS seeks to provide an impartial, law-based approach to resolve conflicts. Various forms of ISDS are now a part of over 3,000 agreements worldwide, of which the United States is party to 50. Though ISDS is invoked as a catch all term, there are a wide variety of differences in scope and process. ISDS in U.S. trade agreements is significantly better defined and restricted than in other countries’ agreements.


Governments put ISDS in place for at least three reasons:

• To resolve investment conflicts without creating state-to-state conflict
• To protect citizens abroad
• To signal to potential investors that the rule of law will be respected


Because of the safeguards in U.S. agreements and because of the high standards of our legal system, foreign investors rarely pursue arbitration against the United States and have never been successful when they have done so.


What are the major criticisms of ISDS?

• For some critics there is a discomfort that ISDS provides an additional channel for investors to sue governments, including a belief that all disputes (even international law disputes) should be resolved in domestic courts. Others believe that ISDS could put strains on national treasuries or that ISDS cases are frivolous. Based on our more than two decades of experience with ISDS under U.S. agreements, we do not share these views. We believe that providing a neutral international forum to resolve investment disputes under international law mitigates conflicts and protects our citizens.

• The most significant concern that critics raise is about the potential impact of ISDS rulings on the ability of governments to regulate. Those concerns are why we have been at the leading edge of reforming and upgrading ISDS. The United States has taken important steps to ensure that our agreements are carefully crafted both to preserve governments’ right to regulate and minimize abuse of the ISDS process. Those steps are described in detail below.


What rights are protected by ISDS under U.S. agreements?

In U.S. agreements, the investment rules enforced by ISDS provide investors in foreign countries basic protections from foreign government actions such as:

• Freedom from discrimination: An assurance that Americans doing business abroad will face a level playing field and will not be treated less favorably than local investors or competitors from third countries.

• Protection against uncompensated expropriation of property: An assurance that the property of investors will not be seized by the government without the payment of just compensation.

• Protection against denial of justice: An assurance that investors will not be denied justice in criminal, civil, or administrative adjudicatory proceedings.

• Right to transfer capital: An assurance that investors will be able to move capital relating to their investments freely, subject to safeguards to provide governments flexibility, including to respond to financial crises and to ensure the integrity and stability of the financial system.


These investment rules mirror rights and protections in the United States and are designed to provide no greater substantive rights to foreign investors than are afforded under the Constitution and U.S. law. For example, the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states that no person shall be “deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” The Fourteenth Amendment states that no state shall “deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” Several of these rights – such as those relating to expropriation and denial of justice – are also longstanding elements of customary international law protections for investors abroad.


Why aren’t local courts enough?

While ISDS does not provide additional substantive rights relative to U.S. law, it does provide an additional procedural right: the right for foreigners to choose impartial arbitration rather than domestic courts when alleging that the government itself has breached its international obligations, whether by discriminating against a foreign investor, expropriating the investor’s property, or violating the investor’s customary international law rights.

ISDS arbitration is needed because the potential for bias can be high in situations where a foreign investor is seeking to redress injury in a domestic court, especially against the government itself. While countries with weak legal institutions are frequent respondents in ISDS cases, American investors have also faced cases of bias or insufficient legal remedies in countries with well-developed legal institutions. Moreover, ISDS can be of particular benefit to small and medium-sized enterprises, which often lack the resources or expertise to navigate foreign legal systems and seek redress for injury at the hands of a foreign government. Indeed, SMEs and individuals have accounted for about half of all cases brought under international arbitration.

There is a long history of providing neutral forums for disputes that cross borders. Within the United States, for example, the rules of civil procedure allow for federal jurisdiction in cases involving citizens of foreign countries (or even citizens of different U.S. states) to eliminate biases that may occur within state courts. Internationally, there are a wide variety of judicial or arbitration mechanisms – including State-to-State dispute settlement and forums permitting direct actions by private parties – to create neutral means for resolving differences between parties from different countries; for example, the International Court of Justice, the World Trade Organization, and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.


Where did ISDS come from?

Disputes between investors and foreign countries have required adjudication for as long as there has been cross-border investment. Prior to the evolution of the modern rules-based system, unlawful behavior by States targeting foreign investors tended either to go unaddressed or to escalate into conflict between States. Military interventions in the early years of U.S. history – gunboat diplomacy – were often in defense of private American commercial interests. As recently as 1974, a United Nations report found that in the previous decade and a half there had been 875 takings of the private property of foreigners by governments in 62 countries for which there was no international legal remedy. Though diplomatic solutions were possible, they were often ineffective and political in character, rather than judicial.

ISDS represented a better way.

Though the modern form of ISDS did not emerge until the 1960s, the idea of using special purpose panels to resolve disputes between private citizens and foreign governments dates to the earliest days of the Republic. One of the forerunners of modern investor-State arbitration mechanisms, the Jay Treaty between the United States and Britain, was negotiated by our first Chief Justice and included a process for resolving property disputes that arose during the Revolutionary War to ensure that investors received “full compensation for [their] losses and damages” where those could not be obtained “in the ordinary course of justice.” Over the subsequent century, governments established more than 100 additional arbitration mechanisms, such as a series of U.S.-Mexican Claims Commissions, which heard thousands of private claims over the course of decades on issues ranging from cattle theft to denial of justice.

Opponents criticize ISDS for “elevating” corporations and investors to equal standing with countries by allowing corporations to “drag” sovereign governments to dispute settlement. But the right of private parties to challenge the actions of government is one of the oldest and most established legal principles (dating back 800 years to the Magna Carta): that “the king, too, is bound by law.”

Importantly, while it provides a venue for conflict resolution, ISDS protects the sovereign right of States to regulate. Under U.S. agreements, ISDS panels are explicitly limited to providing compensation for loss or damage to investments. They cannot overturn domestic laws or regulations.


How expensive is ISDS?

ISDS is a complex form of dispute resolution and is accompanied by similar legal costs to complex litigation in our courts. But ISDS represents just a fraction of the legal expenses governments incur defending lawsuits. Over the past 25 years, under the 50 agreements the U.S. has which include ISDS, the United States has faced only 17 ISDS cases, 13 of which were brought to conclusion. During that same time period, the United States government was sued in U.S. courts hundreds of thousands of times – more than 1,000 of those for alleged “takings”.

Though the U.S. government regularly loses cases in domestic court, we have never once lost an ISDS case and, in a number of instances, panels have awarded the United States attorneys’ fees after the United States successfully defended frivolous or otherwise non-meritorious claims. The U.S. federal government defends challenges to U.S. state or local government measures in ISDS disputes.

According to the most recent UNCTAD data, only a quarter of concluded ISDS cases worldwide have been decided in favor of investors. When investors win, the damages they are typically awarded are substantially less than the value they have claimed. Because of high arbitration costs, the low winning percentage, the potential for future retaliation against the investor by the government being sued, ISDS is typically a recourse of last resort.


Will ISDS affect the ability of TPP governments to regulate?

The United States already has international agreements containing ISDS in force with six of the eleven other countries participating in TPP (Canada, Chile, Mexico, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam). The remaining five countries (Australia, Brunei, Japan, Malaysia and New Zealand) are party to a total of over 100 agreements containing ISDS. TPP will not newly introduce ISDS to any of the countries participating in the agreement. Rather, it presents an opportunity to establish agreement among the parties on a high-standard approach to resolving international investment disputes.

Much of the concern about ISDS is the risk of companies using the mechanism to challenge legitimate regulations. Philip Morris International, for example, has challenged Australia’s plain packaging regulation under a 1993 Hong Kong-Australia Bilateral Investment Treaty. Though that case has not yet been fully adjudicated and Australia has made no changes to their regulation, we nonetheless are working to ensure that TPP includes important safeguards that protect against ISDS being used to challenge legitimate regulation. That is why the United States has put in place several layers of defenses to minimize the risk that U.S. agreements could be exploited in the manner to which other agreements among other countries are susceptible.

In an effort to safeguard against potential abuses of ISDS, TPP will have state-of-the-art protections. It will recognize the inherent right to regulate and to preserve the flexibility of the TPP Parties to protect legitimate public welfare objectives, such as public health, safety, the environment, and the conservation of living or non-living exhaustible natural resources. The investment chapter will include carefully defined obligations and exceptions designed to ensure that nothing in the chapter impinges on legitimate regulation or provides foreign investors with greater substantive rights than those already available under U.S. law. It will also reaffirm the right of any TPP government to ensure that investment activity in its territory is undertaken in a manner sensitive to environmental, health, or other regulatory objectives.

TPP will also incorporate numerous safeguards to ensure that the investment obligations are interpreted carefully and in a manner consistent with governments’ intent, and that the ISDS process is not susceptible to abuse. These safeguards include:

Full transparency in cases. Governments must make all pleadings, briefs, transcripts, decisions, and awards in ISDS cases publicly available, as well as open ISDS hearings to the public. One key objective of these provisions is to allow governments that are party to the agreement, as well as the public at large, to carefully monitor pending proceedings and more effectively make decisions about whether to intervene.

Public participation in cases. Tribunals have the clear authority to accept amicus curiae submissions. In U.S. cases, amicus briefs have been submitted by a variety of NGOs, including the Sierra Club, Friends of the Earth, and Center for International Environmental Law. (Documents in all investor-State cases filed against the United States are available on the State Department website.)

Mechanism for expedited review and dismissal of frivolous claims and claims outside the tribunal’s jurisdiction. This mechanism enables respondent countries, on an extremely expedited basis, to move to dismiss (1) frivolous or otherwise unmeritorious claims (akin to provisions under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure) and (2) claims the tribunal is not empowered to resolve.

Denial of benefits for sham corporations. This provision prevents the use of shell companies to access ISDS.

Restriction on parallel claims. This provision prevents a party from pursuing the same claims both in ISDS proceedings and domestic courts (i.e., restricting “forum shopping”).

Statute of limitations. A three-year statute of limitations protects respondents against old claims, which are difficult for governments to defend in part because access to documents and witnesses becomes more difficult over time.

Challenge of awards. Both parties to an arbitration have the option to challenge a tribunal award.

Consolidation. On request, tribunals may consolidate claims raising common questions of fact and law, which may increase efficiency, reduce litigation costs, and prevent strategic initiation of duplicative litigation.

Interim review of ISDS awards. Parties to the arbitration are permitted to review and comment on a draft of the tribunal’s award before it is made final.

Prudential exception. This exception provides that nothing prevents countries from taking measures to safeguard the stability of their financial systems. If such measures are challenged, this provision allows the respondent country and investor’s home country to jointly agree that the prudential exception applies and that decision is binding on the tribunal.

Tax exception. This exception defines and limits the coverage of government tax measures under the investment provisions. In addition, this provision provides that if the respondent country and investor’s home country agree that a challenged measure is not expropriatory, that decision is binding on the tribunal.

Mechanism for treaty Parties to issue binding decisions on how to interpret treaty provisions. A binding interpretation mechanism enables TPP countries to confer after the agreement has entered into force and to issue joint decisions on questions of treaty interpretation that bind all tribunals in pending and future cases.

Independent experts on environmental, health, or safety matters. In most ISDS cases, the disputing parties retain and appoint the experts. This provision provides arbitral tribunals with the power to appoint experts of their own choosing on environmental, health, and safety matters to ensure maximal objectivity in the evaluation of claims challenging such measures.

Limitations on obligations: Clear limiting rules and definitions, including guidance on interpretation on the obligations frequently subject to litigation, to safeguard against subjective or overbroad interpretation – for example, the incorporation of U.S. Supreme Court standards on indirect expropriation and a clear tying of the “minimum standard of treatment” obligation to requirements under customary international law (i.e. the general and consistent practice of states that they follow from a sense of legal obligation).


The case record is instructive. Tribunals adjudicating ISDS cases under U.S. agreements have consistently affirmed that government actions designed and implemented to advance legitimate regulatory objectives do not violate investment obligations. In the Chemtura v. Canada case, for example, an ISDS panel rejected a claim that the Canadian government’s actions to ban the use of chemical product breached Canada’s NAFTA obligations. In rejecting the investor’s claim, the tribunal showed deference to the government’s scientific and environmental regulatory determinations. Similarly in the Methanex v. the United States case, an ISDS panel underscored the right of governments to regulate for public purposes, including regulation that imposes economic burdens on foreign investors, and stated that investors could not reasonably expect that environmental and health regulations would not change.

Some critics have argued that ISDS nonetheless “chills” regulation. But, far from inhibiting regulation, in the wake of U.S. trade agreements we typically see increases in public interest regulation. This is particularly true of recent U.S. agreements that have required trading partners to upgrade both their labor and environmental laws. But even under older agreements, there is strong evidence of countries making regulatory improvements subsequent to concluding trade agreements with the United States. For example, a recent study by the Organization of American States found that CAFTA-DR countries have improved over 150 existing environmental laws and regulations, and adopted 28 new laws and regulations related to wastewater, air pollution, and solid waste.

The evidence is equally clear in the United States. Despite having 50 ISDS agreements in place, the United States has never lost a case and nothing in our agreements has inhibited our response to the 2008 financial crisis, diluted the financial reforms we put in place, or has challenged signature reforms like the Affordable Care Act or any of the other new regulations that have been put in place over the last 30 years.

https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/fact-sheets/2015/march/investor-state-dispute-settlement-isds

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Nice charts. Expect *incoming* though! n/t freshwest May 2015 #1
Thanks fresh! ucrdem May 2015 #2
Worker rights protections, comparison of TPP to NAFTA: ucrdem May 2015 #3
Senator Warren Has Pointed Out The Truth - No Trade Protection Follow Through By The US cantbeserious May 2015 #6
Yes but she's looking in the rear-view. ucrdem May 2015 #8
If You Believe That anything Will Change With TPP - Well ... cantbeserious May 2015 #10
I got this neat mountain to sell him... eloydude May 2015 #135
Those who disregard their history are doomed to repeat it. merrily May 2015 #26
Right... daleanime May 2015 #155
Worker Rights, text and chart (bigger): ucrdem May 2015 #93
Nope. Not in the least. mikehiggins May 2015 #134
1.8 million new US jobs supported by exports: ucrdem May 2015 #4
If those charts are correct, we're doing just fine without the TPP, and will continue to do so. arcane1 May 2015 #126
Good point, but there's some variation in the numbers ucrdem May 2015 #127
Gee... why just exports, not *net* exports? MannyGoldstein May 2015 #129
You're talking about balance of payments? ucrdem May 2015 #131
It doesn't look that way to me. PETRUS May 2015 #137
Trade balance MannyGoldstein May 2015 #150
Okay. US trade balance seems to reflect total US trade volume ucrdem May 2015 #156
Doesn't seem terribly problematic? PETRUS May 2015 #162
The TPP already got someone a job ...making up those pdf's. L0oniX May 2015 #171
Jobs And Job Protection Is The Problem cantbeserious May 2015 #5
Yes, that's the idea of the thread, to identify how TPP is addressing these two issues. ucrdem May 2015 #7
Fool Me Once ... cantbeserious May 2015 #9
Okay but offshoring is created by tax incentives, not by trade deals. ucrdem May 2015 #12
Well I Guess Delusional Thinking Is Rampant And The Government Insists We Believe It cantbeserious May 2015 #17
Well, Carlin's a funny guy but he's definitely not the government . . . ucrdem May 2015 #18
As I See Things America Is A Shell Of Itself - Thanks To Bad Trade Deals cantbeserious May 2015 #19
It isn't secret. The reasons we can't see it is that it doesn't exist. ucrdem May 2015 #22
Yeah Right - Drafts Of The Document Do Exist - Even So, Why Can't We Read The Final For Review cantbeserious May 2015 #25
It's not a "rigged process," it's how our government works. ucrdem May 2015 #29
Yeah Right - How Much More Rigged Could The Process Be With The 1% Represented But Not The 99% cantbeserious May 2015 #32
Agreed, and remember the Congressional Budget Office found that NAFTA didn't cause job okaawhatever May 2015 #40
And Why Would Anyone Believe Anything The Government Says cantbeserious May 2015 #41
Because the Congressional Budget Office's data is highly respected. They are non-partisan & okaawhatever May 2015 #45
In The Modern Error - All Government Data Is Politicized - Why Else Have Secret Trade Deals cantbeserious May 2015 #49
The modern error seems to be everywhere these days. ucrdem May 2015 #52
It isn't a secret trade deal. It's a secret trade negotiation. Once the deal is finalized there will okaawhatever May 2015 #71
Interesting, I didn't know about the CBO study. ucrdem May 2015 #48
Yeah, that is part of the problem. There are too many moving pieces for the average journalist okaawhatever May 2015 #67
Deals written by lobbiests? AgingAmerican May 2015 #61
That's not the answer the Koch brothers get. merrily May 2015 #30
LOL, I doubt it. ucrdem May 2015 #36
No clue what your post is supposed to mean, but no worries. merrily May 2015 #43
I answered before your edits, which are equally baffling to me. nt ucrdem May 2015 #44
Before or after edits, your reply is not comprehensible to me, but, again, no worries. merrily May 2015 #46
So the charts in the OP are made-up hype and bullshit which should not be believed. bananas May 2015 #51
No, they are not. ucrdem May 2015 #53
If it doesn't exist yet, the charts are meaningless AgingAmerican May 2015 #60
It's an agenda. That's the title: President's Trade Agenda. ucrdem May 2015 #73
Do the GOP and corporate lobbyists have that agenda? AgingAmerican May 2015 #152
They have to be made up. earthside May 2015 #111
It is classified Top Secret AgingAmerican May 2015 #57
So I guess the OP is like Snowden revealing top secrets. L0oniX May 2015 #170
Well, since neither revealed any secrets, you have a point. nt ucrdem May 2015 #173
Offshoring is not created by tax incentives. lancer78 May 2015 #132
Growth of US manufacturing jobs: ucrdem May 2015 #11
What TPA is and isn't ucrdem May 2015 #13
Forgot to Rec. This is a bad time to get rated for more input. Almost 1 AM Pacific. Gotta go! freshwest May 2015 #14
Oh dang. Thanks for the heads up fresh. ucrdem May 2015 #15
p.s. that's the problem with this thing -- it's ginormous! ucrdem May 2015 #24
I can agree that whoring for corporations is what TPP is about n/t eridani May 2015 #16
Small business agenda: ucrdem May 2015 #21
Nothing says bullshit like corporate produced color glossy brochures eridani May 2015 #28
I thought you said corporations loved it? ucrdem May 2015 #33
Corporate bullshitters can afford glossy propaganda eridani May 2015 #35
El Salvador is not in the Pacific Rim. ucrdem May 2015 #38
El Salvador is in the Pacific Rim AgingAmerican May 2015 #65
LOL, you got me. But it's not a current TPP signatory. They are: ucrdem May 2015 #66
Then they are more fortunate than we AgingAmerican May 2015 #68
Nothing says bullshit like readersupportednews & common dreams. nt okaawhatever May 2015 #47
So sorry they aren't Republican enough for you n/t eridani May 2015 #139
No, they aren't accurate enough for me. I don't want propaganda, I want information. nt okaawhatever May 2015 #147
They are more accurate about TPP than anything the corporate whores have put out n/t eridani May 2015 #148
Nnnnnnope. cherokeeprogressive May 2015 #20
.... Art_from_Ark May 2015 #23
No, and jobs are by far not the only problem, either. Next question. merrily May 2015 #27
as GWBush called it, catapulting the propaganda. sure are pretty pictures n graphics tho nt msongs May 2015 #31
If you can't read the text, click the link and read the PDF in your browser. ucrdem May 2015 #34
Looks so slick as to be.. sendero May 2015 #97
Only a vicious amoral sociopath could be in favor of the following-- eridani May 2015 #37
Again? ucrdem May 2015 #39
You, like Senator Warren, don't do any research on the junk you post. For example, Hoyt May 2015 #116
Who should pay for it is obviously the little people eridani May 2015 #141
Usually when corporations fail, they pay arbitration costs. Hoyt May 2015 #142
As long as they don't mind killing their citizens to boost Big Pharma profits eridani May 2015 #146
Actually, you should read about drug costs in poor countries. Brand name drugs are Hoyt May 2015 #149
That's what the TPP is for--actively preventing ngegotiated drug prices. n/t eridani May 2015 #151
Well there goes more of our sovereignty but not the global corporations sovereignty. L0oniX May 2015 #172
Not about jobs, huh? Art_from_Ark May 2015 #42
Can you give any more info on the study? ucrdem May 2015 #50
Here's an article from the Japan Times that provides some background Art_from_Ark May 2015 #56
Okay thanks, but note the first one is two years old, ucrdem May 2015 #64
The last article is from last week Art_from_Ark May 2015 #72
Okay thanks. ucrdem May 2015 #75
No, the last article on my list is from this month Art_from_Ark May 2015 #76
Yes I gather. But I said your first link. ucrdem May 2015 #77
Okay #2 is from July 2013, and #3 is asking for transparency ucrdem May 2015 #87
oops .. wrong place ucrdem May 2015 #74
so basically the us would export cheap rice to japan questionseverything May 2015 #110
That table is far fetched shaayecanaan May 2015 #88
Sugar beets in Japan are used to make oligosaccharide Art_from_Ark May 2015 #90
That just reveals how fundamentally dishonest this is shaayecanaan May 2015 #140
So good that it's top secret!! AgingAmerican May 2015 #54
Republicans ALWAYS say their policies are good for jobs Enrique May 2015 #55
Because they aren't Republicans? Because NAFTA created millions of new US jobs? ucrdem May 2015 #58
I can think of at least 5 production facilities in my congressional district Art_from_Ark May 2015 #70
Well, they might move to Malaysia under TPP ucrdem May 2015 #78
Obama himself has blurred the partisan line. LWolf May 2015 #128
They polled the public and the public wants JOBS.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #59
Well, NAFTA delivered jobs by any metric ucrdem May 2015 #62
LOL!! Look how broad the definition of work is on that chart. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #122
what on earth do you think that chart proves? Warren Stupidity May 2015 #133
The sun came up the day after NAFTA was signed. Elwood P Dowd May 2015 #136
That's the labor participation rate bhikkhu May 2015 #153
Now I understand why I heard there were Unicorns in the Appendix. n/t jtuck004 May 2015 #83
It's always been geopolitical. joshcryer May 2015 #63
LOL, Pat Moynihan talked about it. ucrdem May 2015 #69
So did Nixon. joshcryer May 2015 #79
I know but I didn't want to mention it. ucrdem May 2015 #80
They did test trials and it was a disaster. joshcryer May 2015 #81
Interesting. ucrdem May 2015 #82
Hey, I just saw this, Warren Buffet is advocating EIC modifications: joshcryer May 2015 #85
Another Warren to worry about LOL ucrdem May 2015 #89
"the WH is doing a poor job " < Don't be hard on them. It's not easy selling dog shit once the jtuck004 May 2015 #84
They're still trying to call those dog turds "saucisson" Art_from_Ark May 2015 #86
Researchers now say that eating a single serving of processed meat every day could increase your jtuck004 May 2015 #92
NO anything that gives multinational corporations more power is not going to give us more GOOD jwirr May 2015 #91
no, but I bet most of us can agree that your OP TheSarcastinator May 2015 #94
What pretty pictures. Well they have to wrap up a shit sandwich in nice packaging somehow. Katashi_itto May 2015 #95
I don't know what your point is anymore, really. djean111 May 2015 #96
I thought we were all dying to know what the eeeevuhl was hiding from us? ucrdem May 2015 #98
Oh, that is not what I said, and you know it. And enough eeeevuhl (cute marginalizing trick, BTW) djean111 May 2015 #102
Okay well alrighty then. ucrdem May 2015 #104
Dear Goddess. You are serious. sheshe2 May 2015 #154
You are serious when you do not think Obama and the GOP are NOT working together on Fast Track? djean111 May 2015 #158
LOL, a funny thing happened on the way to the forum today . . . ucrdem May 2015 #185
Since we can not read it PowerToThePeople May 2015 #99
Yes, it would be hard to read as it doesn't yet exist. ucrdem May 2015 #100
Well, no need for the TPA until it exists and we have read it. PowerToThePeople May 2015 #101
It won't exist if TPA doesn't pass. But voting for TPA isn't voting for TPP, ucrdem May 2015 #103
That does not have to be the case PowerToThePeople May 2015 #105
Well the tricky parts are still being negotiated, like Japanese agricultural tariffs ucrdem May 2015 #109
It is not only voting for the TPP but whatever sewage comes down the pipe on trade for six years TheKentuckian May 2015 #143
So when members of Congress go into that room where they can read the TPP, but not take notes or djean111 May 2015 #106
Now you know their dark secrets. ucrdem May 2015 #107
Kind of bullshit, saying we cannot read the TPP because the "agreement" does not yet exist. djean111 May 2015 #108
Well if you really want a sneak preview I'm giving you one. ucrdem May 2015 #112
No, you are giving me the Official Story. No thanks. djean111 May 2015 #113
Unmitigated bullshit. TBF May 2015 #115
Repetition is not truth. Chan790 May 2015 #138
I don't want the glossy sales brochure - TBF May 2015 #114
It's too complicated for your pretty little head. Just sign it. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #123
Good work, ucr. Obama and/or TPP haters won't read it, anymore than they'd read the final Hoyt May 2015 #117
Hey thanks Hoyt! ucrdem May 2015 #118
I won't mention the poster's name, but we had one who went from saying it's a "secret agreement" Hoyt May 2015 #120
LOL, that's progress, I guess ucrdem May 2015 #121
"Obama/TPP haters" AgingAmerican May 2015 #166
Nice shiny propaganda from the U.S. Government nadinbrzezinski May 2015 #119
I'd post that Joseph Goebbels award but I got a hide the last time I did. L0oniX May 2015 #169
It is far more sophisticated nadinbrzezinski May 2015 #176
Enforcement: dispute resolution in action, 2014 (pg. 35): ucrdem May 2015 #124
More on ISDS from USTR: ucrdem May 2015 #125
! Phlem May 2015 #130
This thread did not go very well lol. Rex May 2015 #174
Agreed. Phlem May 2015 #182
Corporate mission statements and ambiguous negotiating positions are not the deal TheKentuckian May 2015 #144
Possibly but it sure beats what we're getting from the pundits. ucrdem May 2015 #145
Even a great press would put little stock in corporate mission statements being conflated with TheKentuckian May 2015 #159
LOL, nice pretty charts. B Calm May 2015 #157
If you don't read it, you aren't considering both sides treestar May 2015 #160
It appears to me that many people are keenly aware of both sides. PETRUS May 2015 #161
Okay you didn't read it. ucrdem May 2015 #163
It is possible to read it yet not be fooled by it. PETRUS May 2015 #164
You think this thing can be reduced to five buzzwords? ucrdem May 2015 #165
What "thing?" PETRUS May 2015 #167
29 volumes of legislation negotiated between 12 nations and probably thousands of orgs ucrdem May 2015 #168
You left out part of my equation. PETRUS May 2015 #175
Marx and Engels were writing in Dickens' London ironically enough. ucrdem May 2015 #178
Two things: PETRUS May 2015 #180
Okay, but you didn't give me much to go on ucrdem May 2015 #181
It's more informative than "both sides," yet I don't see you pouncing on that terminology. PETRUS May 2015 #183
No one side of TPP is going to lead to all this doom and gloom treestar May 2015 #177
Exactly. ucrdem May 2015 #179
See posts 164 and what follows. PETRUS May 2015 #184
It's nonthinking and doesn't reach the issue treestar May 2015 #186
TPP at-a-glance ucrdem Jun 2015 #187
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