Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

progree

(12,977 posts)
170. What about average household size declining, and more people living alone?
Sat May 30, 2015, 11:47 AM
May 2015

Last edited Sat May 30, 2015, 01:34 PM - Edit history (1)

People have mentioned that more wives / live-in partners are in the paid labor force now than back in the 1960's etc., and so that unfairly inflates household income statistics -- or in other words, real household median income has been kept from falling only because more wives have joined the paid labor force.

Although, as you point out in #69, from 1994, when NAFTA began, to 2014 the female labor force participation rate has only increased by about 1 percentage point, so no need to go over that again....

But, do you have backing for your [font color = blue]"136. The rate of two earner households in 94 is the same as today. Or within a couple of percent."[/font]. Given that the overall (male & female combined) labor force participation rate has fallen by 3.6 percentage points -- from 66.6% in 1/1994 to 63.0% in 1/2014 http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000 . It looks like we have less earners overall (as a percentage of the adult population) (not surprising with baby boom retirements). ).

Actually, employment to population ratio (ETPR) would be better for the purpose of determining how many earners there are:
1/1994: 62.2%, 1/2014: 58.8%. A decline of 3.8 percentage points
http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000

The male ETPR fell by 5.6 percentage points and the female ETPR fell by 1.2 percentage points from 1/1994 to 1/2014.

Anyway, I keep reading that average household size is declining, and more people are living alone.

Average household size: 1974: 2.97, 1994: 2.67, 2014: 2.54
http://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us/


Percent of households with one person: 1974: 18%, 1994: 24.5%, 2011: 27.5%
(my rough eyeball readings, slide 6, from https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pdf/cah_slides.pdf


Anyway, don't the above 2 factors skew the median household income downward? Or to put it in other words, had average household size and the percent of one-person households stayed the same as in 1994, wouldn't the median household income be higher?

==========================================================
Labor force participation rate:
. . Overall: LNS11300000 Male: LNS11300001 Female: LNS11300002
Employment To Population Ratio:
. . Overall: LNS12300000 Male: LNS12300001 Female: LNS12300002

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

median income. what deceptive crap cali May 2015 #1
No, you're thinking of mean. This is median. Recursion May 2015 #4
bullshit cali May 2015 #9
Yes, you should read your link. Recursion May 2015 #11
from my link cali May 2015 #12
Right. If the richest one makes a million dollars the median is unchanged Recursion May 2015 #13
Good luck posting to folks who prove our education system has failed us. I've given up. Hoyt May 2015 #153
Invective Jesus Malverde May 2015 #162
What about average household size declining, and more people living alone? progree May 2015 #170
I'm not sure what to make of household size. The labor force is in a weird place demographically Recursion May 2015 #239
Same as if the lowest wage earners decline. HooptieWagon May 2015 #229
It's true that the median isn'the affected by losses at the bottom Recursion May 2015 #231
does it count those with 0 income? hollysmom May 2015 #236
Literal zero income households are very uncommon, but yes (nt) Recursion May 2015 #243
What is the "mode" or "most likely" income? 1939 May 2015 #23
That's a good question. I'll try Wolfram (nt) Recursion May 2015 #26
None, apparently. Very few households make *exactly* as much as any other household (nt) Recursion May 2015 #71
The key word is household. zeemike May 2015 #134
The rate of two earner households in 94 is the same as today Recursion May 2015 #136
But you compared it to 74. zeemike May 2015 #141
Right. That changed between 1974 and 1994 Recursion May 2015 #144
So let's do it again. zeemike May 2015 #148
Do what again? The change predated NAFTA Recursion May 2015 #149
Well I am old enough to have lived and worked for a living in those times. zeemike May 2015 #150
Agreed Sherman A1 May 2015 #186
Yes but that means we are doing horribly... davekriss May 2015 #216
Yes, but well compared to 1993 Recursion May 2015 #225
Point taken. :) davekriss May 2015 #251
If you know the mean and the median 1939 May 2015 #157
Such brilliant thoughtful retorts.. DCBob May 2015 #68
Hey cali, as far as the use of median versus mean Android3.14 May 2015 #121
This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch May 2015 #151
The key word in this particular little deception is "household" income. Enthusiast May 2015 #57
Nice try. That change happened before NAFTA Recursion May 2015 #69
Your own stats say I win. Enthusiast May 2015 #72
Nope. Women joined the workforce en masse *before* NAFTA Recursion May 2015 #74
Do you have numbers? kenfrequed May 2015 #169
Here's real earnings 1964 through April 2015 progree May 2015 #174
I only noticed today that after 1994, AHETPI goes up during recessions, but before 1994 it went down Recursion May 2015 #238
now take into account the disparity of wages in 74 and today pipoman May 2015 #92
That was happening long before NAFTA treestar May 2015 #101
The labor force participation rate did increase under Clinton, as did wages and employment. pampango May 2015 #156
That was a different dynamic and would have happened with or without NAFTA. DCBob May 2015 #181
The rate of two earner households didn't increase after NAFTA... progree May 2015 #185
Actually, median income is not deceptive. The rich getting richer doesn't affect the median. DanTex May 2015 #81
Median means we all make more yeoman6987 May 2015 #203
your op deserves hundreds of unrecs cali May 2015 #2
The consistent and high-volume untruths about what actually happened after NAFTA deserve the unrecs Recursion May 2015 #8
Our mileage was different. canoeist52 May 2015 #45
Were the jobs lost to Mexico, or to Canada? (nt) Recursion May 2015 #49
Me too. Similar story. "For some of us this isn't and wasn't a game." Enthusiast May 2015 #58
I can think of at least 5 production facilities in my hometown area that moved to Mexico Art_from_Ark May 2015 #159
And yet manufacturing employment and wages increased after NAFTA - until Bush came along. pampango May 2015 #191
How much of that "manufacturing employment" included burger flipping? Art_from_Ark May 2015 #210
Classifying fast food jobs as 'manufacturing' did come up under Bush (2004) long after Clinton. pampango May 2015 #211
I wouldn't say "stupid" Art_from_Ark May 2015 #212
None of it and I've called you out on this before Recursion May 2015 #226
The problem is that this punching bag is needed treestar May 2015 #106
+100 tenderfoot May 2015 #167
The average HH median income includes the Romneys and the Cheneys. GreatGazoo May 2015 #3
No, you are also thinking of mean. This is median. Recursion May 2015 #6
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, etc. don't skew where the middle is? merrily May 2015 #139
Not when you're using the median Recursion May 2015 #142
Amazing how many seemingly intelligent people don't understand that simple basic math concept. DCBob May 2015 #182
Yes ... read the above ... 1StrongBlackMan May 2015 #232
do tell where all that income went. waiting with bated breath cali May 2015 #5
Consumer spending and houses, mostly Recursion May 2015 #10
And depriving consumers of spending via killing careers and wage progress . . .. HughBeaumont May 2015 #27
Cell phones, televisions, Internet, computers, gasoline, perhaps? Android3.14 May 2015 #131
Most of that is health care and education Recursion May 2015 #138
FYI, if something is good, NAFTA had nothing to do with it. If it is bad, it is all NAFTA's fault. pampango May 2015 #7
Tell it to the Rust Belt bread_and_roses May 2015 #14
Depends on the city. Some rust belt cities are better off than in 1974 and some are worse Recursion May 2015 #15
Some? HughBeaumont May 2015 #32
If your claim is that every city in yellow is worse off now than in 1994, that's clearly false Recursion May 2015 #83
Pittsburgh and Maine jopacaco May 2015 #91
Maine has average income and better than average inequality Recursion May 2015 #97
Median income in Maine Android3.14 May 2015 #127
The city is one thing - travel through the old "Mill Towns" down the Ohio bread_and_roses May 2015 #260
The industrial rust belt cities I'm familiar with gollygee May 2015 #125
Economies shift. Kansas City used to be the center Recursion May 2015 #126
So we've moved from "the rust belt is fine" to "that's just the way things go." gollygee May 2015 #128
Before labor-intensive manufacturing we had labor-intensive agriculture bhikkhu May 2015 #270
It's hilarious but it isn't funny. Enthusiast May 2015 #59
Were those job losses to Mexico or to China? Orangepeel May 2015 #86
in my rust belt town gollygee May 2015 #109
In just my hometown area alone Art_from_Ark May 2015 #175
Check your math... MattSh May 2015 #16
Actually it's neither Recursion May 2015 #17
Using the revised numbers... MattSh May 2015 #20
I totally agree it's noise (nt) Recursion May 2015 #21
In other words, Stevepol May 2015 #25
Correlation is not cause BainsBane May 2015 #18
The big jump in women working was between 74 and 94 Recursion May 2015 #22
Yes, I edited it after I realized I had the years wrong BainsBane May 2015 #28
I agree it's not sound to argue that NAFTA raised wages, and I don't Recursion May 2015 #42
That is when the "bump" occurred..the second bump pipoman May 2015 #96
No, a liar would say incomes are down since NAFTA Recursion May 2015 #108
Up 1.05% Yea! truebluegreen May 2015 #154
Median income and employment went up 1939 May 2015 #29
11 bucks a month gain vs 10 bucks a month benefit? Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2015 #19
I doubt any of it had to do with NAFTA Recursion May 2015 #24
Which means nothing, because the 20 years before NAFTA were the Reagan years and the DanTex May 2015 #30
What "argument" do you see me making? Recursion May 2015 #39
You seem to be implying that NAFTA either helped or didn't hurt the middle or working class. DanTex May 2015 #43
I'm presenting a piece of evidence that counters a common unsupported argument here Recursion May 2015 #47
OK, then you are making the argument I thought you were making. DanTex May 2015 #56
Curious. Here are stats about median wages Android3.14 May 2015 #140
Tell that the workers that lost their jobs DiverDave May 2015 #218
I personally don't know any, just people who lost jobs to China and Bangladesh Recursion May 2015 #228
Great reading DiverDave May 2015 #257
I read it. I responded. Recursion May 2015 #258
Seriously? DiverDave May 2015 #267
Just to add, saying "more" in the title is technically true, but very misleading. DanTex May 2015 #61
Yes, it's noise, but larger is larger, and I guaran-damn-tee you that if the numbers were reversed Recursion May 2015 #73
Yes, it would. In which case I would be responding to those people that there's DanTex May 2015 #78
Back in 1974 households usually had one Sanity Claws May 2015 #31
Not to mention we now work longer hours than our 1970s counterparts. HughBeaumont May 2015 #37
$47,519 in 1974 would be $142,846.16 in 1994. KansDem May 2015 #33
That's what "real" means. Recursion May 2015 #40
Given your rationale, then... KansDem May 2015 #75
Sigh. No. The point of using real dollars is the inflation is already calculated in Recursion May 2015 #77
You missed this part.... Exilednight May 2015 #34
Why would you ignore government benefits? Recursion May 2015 #41
I'm not ignoring them. It's the fact that extreme poverty doubled shortly after NAFTA. Exilednight May 2015 #90
Which is why social spending is so important in a global economy Recursion May 2015 #120
Went up, yet millions less are working, millions more in poverty on both sides of the border. jtuck004 May 2015 #35
I don't know what's more pathetic . . . . HughBeaumont May 2015 #36
Calm down and read my post Recursion May 2015 #44
Well? What have you got to say for yourself, Recursion? Joe Chi Minh May 2015 #50
It's especially funny that you replied after I did (nt) Recursion May 2015 #52
+1 Pooka Fey May 2015 #184
Great post, the one you linked to. nt raccoon May 2015 #187
What a total pile of BS Katashi_itto May 2015 #38
Results... Major Nikon May 2015 #133
You can tell NAFTA was responsible because nothing else happened during those 40 years. Taitertots May 2015 #46
Thank you! Recursion May 2015 #51
Nothing else except the .com bubble, followed by the housing bubble. n/t Exilednight May 2015 #93
You want to talk about destroying jobs? The Internet killed the entire travel agent industry Recursion May 2015 #107
nice attempt at trying to change the subject. n/t Exilednight May 2015 #112
I don't understand the controversy on this. randome May 2015 #48
Symbols make bad policy and NAFTA has become a symbol Recursion May 2015 #66
I hear you. randome May 2015 #84
And those dollars buy half as much now. hobbit709 May 2015 #53
No, that's what "real" means. Those are all 2014 dollars (nt) Recursion May 2015 #64
There's nothing "real" about a dollar that buys half of what it used too. hobbit709 May 2015 #67
No, you're missing the point. The actual dollar wages in 1994 and 1974 were much lower than listed Recursion May 2015 #70
No. it's the real value Taitertots May 2015 #65
How valid a point is this? Half-Century Man May 2015 #54
If the numbers were reversed, do you think people would post "NAFTA slowed US wage growth" and use Recursion May 2015 #62
Were the results of NAFTA to be reversed Half-Century Man May 2015 #94
Don't be offended by the lack of response. This is the usual spot where Recursion drops out of DanTex May 2015 #155
You can't respond to anecdote Recursion May 2015 #160
Of course you can. For example, you could acknowledge that factories have in fact closed due to DanTex May 2015 #164
'Of course you can. For example, you could acknowledge that factories have in fact Joe Chi Minh May 2015 #172
The trade deficit is a good indicator. I noticed you focused on ONE metric Exilednight May 2015 #102
Got any evidence that a trade deficit lowers income? Recursion May 2015 #104
I can see you know little about economics. Trade drives an economy Exilednight May 2015 #110
So, it should be very easy for you to provide some evidence that trade deficits lower incomes Recursion May 2015 #111
Yes, I can prove it. Enroll in my class at GWU and You can learn. n/t Exilednight May 2015 #114
No, just a simple few pieces of evidence will do Recursion May 2015 #116
There's no such thing as simple and few. NAFTA by itself takes up 3 weeks of the course. I have at Exilednight May 2015 #124
So he has to pay thousands of dollars BainsBane May 2015 #123
It's not a simple subject. People a lot smarter than me have studied NAFTA for decades and have Exilednight May 2015 #129
I opposed NAFTA, and I oppose TPP BainsBane May 2015 #132
You're right about facilitating change, at least to some extent. Jobs were Exilednight May 2015 #146
I must know a lot of poor people Pakid May 2015 #55
That's household income, so it includes both people in a married couple (nt) Recursion May 2015 #60
You and me both. Maybe 20% of the people I know come close to that number. hobbit709 May 2015 #63
I only know a few people that make below median tammywammy May 2015 #227
Two things: 1) Correlation is not causation. 2) "median" is skewed by the growth at the top. (n/t) Spider Jerusalem May 2015 #76
Two things: 1) I'm not arguing causation. 2) You're thinking of "mean". Median specifically *isn't* Recursion May 2015 #80
You heavily implied it Spider Jerusalem May 2015 #87
That's what "real dollars" means; inflation is factored in Recursion May 2015 #88
Gonna rec it for conversation rpannier May 2015 #79
The two wage earner rate shot up between 74 and 94, it's slightly higher now than in 94 Recursion May 2015 #82
no need to go hunting. i believe you rpannier May 2015 #85
I believe you're onto something. ucrdem May 2015 #89
I've hesitated to say it's a RW con job, but I'm leaning that way Recursion May 2015 #103
Not a true barometer, and the implied cause and effect is a fallacy roomtomove May 2015 #95
"Real dollars" means inflation was already factored in Recursion May 2015 #99
'...and I don't think NAFTA really had much to do with it at all.' Joe Chi Minh May 2015 #173
Having lived through the 90s treestar May 2015 #98
A lot of corporate representatives have been part of the TPP negotiations.. Fumesucker May 2015 #100
Well, no, they haven't Recursion May 2015 #105
Why don't we wait and see who they go to work for in a few weeks/months/years? Fumesucker May 2015 #130
If you ask me... smiley May 2015 #113
Wages have been roughly stagnant the whole period Recursion May 2015 #117
For a working class person there is no reason JEB May 2015 #161
Ok then... smiley May 2015 #192
The benefits of NAFTA in the US were mostly to agriculture and heavy manufacturing Recursion May 2015 #242
I would like to know the mean the mode and standard deviation, too. Gore1FL May 2015 #115
Me too. I'll see if Wolfram has it (nt) Recursion May 2015 #118
As others have said, you aren't measuring the effects of NAFTA. kristopher May 2015 #119
I see multiple charts that don't show any harm to most Americans' incomes after NAFTA Recursion May 2015 #122
When you say you think "those charts don't show harm..." kristopher May 2015 #214
"Harm" as shorthand for "decrease in inflation-adjusted income" Recursion May 2015 #253
I already stated we do not share the values that make that conclusion possible. kristopher May 2015 #255
Thanks for the charts A Little Weird May 2015 #145
using facts mopinko May 2015 #135
Income is different from real wages and household income does not reflect how many jobs the merrily May 2015 #137
BS ananda May 2015 #143
Yes, I did. That's what "real" income means Recursion May 2015 #147
A lot of posts says jobs was lost and moved to other countries, the truth is in some cases Thinkingabout May 2015 #152
Your assertion ignores the rigging of the CPI to understate inflation in the 1990s by the Boskin Faryn Balyncd May 2015 #158
Very telling points, indeed! Joe Chi Minh May 2015 #176
+10000000000000. The term "adjusted for inflation" is now a laughable joke. Elwood P Dowd May 2015 #195
People reading this OP marle35 May 2015 #163
"Without the financial collapse, NAFTA woulda been great!" lumberjack_jeff May 2015 #165
Tell that one to all the homeless people Caspian Morgan May 2015 #166
I vote Recursion as the most patient poster on DU Android3.14 May 2015 #168
2618 change in 20 years zentrum May 2015 #171
"given the rising cost of housing, education, health care, cars. " progree May 2015 #177
In-state tuition at my state university today is over 3X higher than it was in 1994; salaries are Midwestern Democrat May 2015 #178
The cost of higher education is included in the CPI progree May 2015 #179
What about the rest of what I said. zentrum May 2015 #202
"NAFTA cost U.S. workers almost 700,000 jobs." progree May 2015 #233
It is neither fair nor right and the answer is higher taxes and more social spending Recursion May 2015 #241
Then we agree on some of the important things n/t zentrum Jun 2015 #273
The OP *approves* of income disparity. nt Romulox May 2015 #194
Can you tell me how "the OP *approves* of income disparity"? progree May 2015 #198
I've read his posts, over the years. He is a classic "neoliberal". nt Romulox May 2015 #199
Thank you. nt progree May 2015 #200
What bullshit. I support a $23/hr minimum wage and a 70% top marginal tax rate Recursion May 2015 #247
"The bottom three quintiles are treading water. That's not good, but it's also not harm" Romulox May 2015 #261
It's not harm Recursion May 2015 #262
Yes it is. Inequality is itself harm. But you were arguing that you *don't* approve of growing Romulox May 2015 #263
I don't. Never said I did Recursion May 2015 #264
You just said growing inequality is "not harm"--a claim you are unwilling to defend. nt Romulox May 2015 #265
I still claim it is not "harm", and I still oppose it Recursion May 2015 #266
That is a lie, and a lazy one at that (nt) Recursion May 2015 #249
Observe the differential between median and mean income during this period. immoderate May 2015 #180
Sorry, but it looks like the continuation of a long-running trend beginning in the beginning progree May 2015 #183
Slowed down, compared to what? immoderate May 2015 #188
No, the top 5%'s income increased at a much slower rate after NAFTA than before NAFTA progree May 2015 #190
NAFTA concentrated wealth from the 5% to the 0.1%. immoderate May 2015 #213
"NAFTA concentrated wealth from the 5% to the 0.1%." progree May 2015 #235
So what? Donald Ian Rankin May 2015 #221
So much CYA for the Owners...it is as if they are worried their TPP won't pass! Rex May 2015 #189
What a dishonest OP. Here's the real story. Romulox May 2015 #193
How are you interpreting this graph? Android3.14 May 2015 #206
Workers' incomes flat for 40 years, while Oligarchs' skyrocket. You know, reality. nt Romulox May 2015 #207
No argument there Android3.14 May 2015 #215
Hours worked to produce that income skyrocketed. Ikonoklast May 2015 #268
Data please Android3.14 May 2015 #269
At least since 1990, hours worked has decreased according to this article from The Economist Android3.14 May 2015 #271
Yup. Both before NAFTA and after it Recursion May 2015 #252
It does show the decrease of mean real income by quintile. BillZBubb May 2015 #223
Where do you see a decrease in any quintile there? (nt) Recursion May 2015 #250
"Median" chosen because it's not "average." DirkGently May 2015 #196
Yes, median income goes up when there are gains on the lower side, but not on the higher side progree May 2015 #197
As long as Android3.14 May 2015 #205
What I'm trying to say is that in a virtually continuous distribution of over 100 million incomes progree May 2015 #237
Wolfram has more zoomable charts but I can't do a non-subscriber link Recursion May 2015 #240
Um...no Android3.14 May 2015 #204
Well okay then. DirkGently May 2015 #224
NO! That's completely and utterly 100% wrong. Donald Ian Rankin May 2015 #220
Median income has not budged since 2000 CentralMass May 2015 #201
Yup. Bush wrecked the economy for workers (nt) Recursion May 2015 #230
Just for clarity, those are real (i.e. inflation adjusted) incomes. progree May 2015 #234
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2015 #208
except not we're carrying far more debt per household, yes? krispos42 May 2015 #209
How about another anecdote? DiverDave May 2015 #217
Anecdotal evidence is worse than useless. Donald Ian Rankin May 2015 #222
Sure, and the guys from DiverDave May 2015 #256
And the ones who benefited? Donald Ian Rankin May 2015 #259
Thank you for you some good data. aikoaiko May 2015 #219
Your strange edit 2 MrMickeysMom May 2015 #244
The wages were stagnant before and after our trade agreements Recursion May 2015 #245
You really don't want to get it, do you? MrMickeysMom May 2015 #246
What do you think caused the income stagnation between 1974 and 1994? Recursion May 2015 #248
The same thing that led to the trade agreements in the first place... MrMickeysMom May 2015 #254
"These are not the droids you're looking for." Major Hogwash May 2015 #272
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Real median household inc...»Reply #170