General Discussion

Joe Turner

(930 posts)

140. Complete obfuscation of the point

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 07:43 PM

Jun 2015

The issue is TPP giving the power to corporations foreign or domestic to supersede U.S. rules, regulations, laws if they can show harm to whatever they are trying to play victim on which is usually....profits. This ceding of U.S. sovereignty is on an unprecedented scale.

Here's some reading for ya. The below comes straight from our own CIA which keeps track of global account current balances, i.e. trade surpluses and trade deficits. The list starts with with nation the has the highest trade surplus which btw is Germany. Care to guess which country is at the bottom of ALL nations for more than 25 years now. The one that bled $385 billion last year in trade deficits. Take a wild guess. This is the direct result of our corporate free trade adventures. Spin away on that.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

245 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Pew Research, May 27: "Free Trade Agreements Seen as Good for U.S." [View all] ucrdem Jun 2015 OP

Looks like Stop the TPP isn't such a winning issue among younger voters and Hispanics: ucrdem Jun 2015 #1

Whoever sees this as the issue they think is going to treestar Jun 2015 #44

That's cool. But, then, why the organised pile-on when some of us express our concern about it? djean111 Jun 2015 #57

It does seem a job assignment that you have to hate it treestar Jun 2015 #60

Well then, I guess we will see, won't we. In the meantime, no votes from me for those who vote djean111 Jun 2015 #66

Would love to see where countries won't be able to negotiate drug prices. Hoyt Jun 2015 #72

"With all that said, I think our laws should limit ....." Joe Turner Jun 2015 #102

No you don't get it. Read about the international tribunals that use UN/WTO rules and Hoyt Jun 2015 #108

Are you going on record that the TPP will not supersede Joe Turner Jun 2015 #120

Yes. Of course, many of the so-called progressives here call it superseding when a country Hoyt Jun 2015 #121

Complete obfuscation of the point Joe Turner Jun 2015 #140

They have to show they've been discriminated against in favor of domestic corporations. Hoyt Jun 2015 #143

B/S they can show cause by the U.S. having a regulation that has a higher standard Joe Turner Jun 2015 #146

Do you have the language to prove that, or is "BS" your proof. Hoyt Jun 2015 #147

I don't know. How about the actual language of TPP Joe Turner Jun 2015 #153

So, now you've gone to talking trade deficits. Did you know plenty of economists Hoyt Jun 2015 #145

The same economics that have told us what a great deal free trade is? Joe Turner Jun 2015 #148

The manufacturing base has been sliding since first transistor radios, Chinese Finger Traps, and VWs Hoyt Jun 2015 #152

Yes, it is amazing what happens when a country Joe Turner Jun 2015 #155

You obviously fear foreigners. Better to embrace them and adapt. Hoyt Jun 2015 #162

Oh so that's it. Learning to adapt to lower standards Joe Turner Jun 2015 #165

Yep all the countries party to trade agreements are corporate bought, and you and a few self-styled Hoyt Jun 2015 #193

You seem to have no memory of the past Joe Turner Jun 2015 #195

Yet, they are party to these agreements because they want more trade and investment in their Hoyt Jun 2015 #197

They are party to these agreements like China and Japan Joe Turner Jun 2015 #199

They get better deals because they make better products. Hoyt Jun 2015 #200

America had the best products for decades Joe Turner Jun 2015 #202

Did you ever drive our 60/70s gas guzzlers. Heavy, crummy cars, unless you need a high Hoyt Jun 2015 #203

and that period in autos defines American quality? Joe Turner Jun 2015 #205

And, nobody wants our cars because they cost too much for what you get. Sorry, that's the truth. Hoyt Jun 2015 #211

Really? I thought these free trade deals were going to open up markets for us Joe Turner Jun 2015 #218

You do realize if a country opens an auto plan here, it brings good jobs. But, Hoyt Jun 2015 #220

I realize that this country has been blown out of 1 industry after another Joe Turner Jun 2015 #227

And TPP is trying to salvage what we can. Manufacturing jobs have been disappearing for 40 years Hoyt Jun 2015 #228

Your logic is circular Joe Turner Jun 2015 #229

It's amazing what money can buy Joe Turner Jun 2015 #62

Pew isn't a think tank per se, it's a polling company. ucrdem Jun 2015 #67

Nice to know Pew is doing God's work for democracy Joe Turner Jun 2015 #81

And they will be so hurt by it. ananda Jun 2015 #64

Liberal Democrats more likely than conservative Republicans to favor free trade: ucrdem Jun 2015 #2

Thanks for pointing that out. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #196

And yet, liberal Democrats in Congress who have actually read the damn thing Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #215

Is this hosrseshit supposed to be about TPP? eridani Jun 2015 #3

Yep. ucrdem Jun 2015 #5

Yep. Compliance with antidemocratic thuggery. It's a good thing! n/t eridani Jun 2015 #6

Executing old people is great too. Medicare doesn't really need that $700 million n/t eridani Jun 2015 #7

Thank the Democratic Senators who grandstanded for that one. ucrdem Jun 2015 #10

I'm thanking them by refusing to donate to any of them from now on n/t eridani Jun 2015 #14

Then don't complain when they solicit PAC donations. ucrdem Jun 2015 #17

Seriously, are bank accounts antidemocratic thuggery? ucrdem Jun 2015 #8

Whoring for corporate overthrow of public decisions is antidemocratic thuggery n/t eridani Jun 2015 #11

Evidenty the public HAS decided. They decided free trade is good for the US. ucrdem Jun 2015 #13

oops .. wrong place ucrdem Jun 2015 #15

And Germans voted the Nazis into power Trajan Jun 2015 #106

Godwin's law. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #111

Your op is a tribute to Hanlon's Razor. nt beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #117

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #235

I expect this will come was welcome news to the HRC campaign ucrdem Jun 2015 #4

That's pretty sad RobertEarl Jun 2015 #9

And when you drive your new electric car off the lot in a couple of years ucrdem Jun 2015 #12

I doubt the average American will be able to afford a new car in a few years betterdemsonly Jun 2015 #38

My region already has electric cars all over the place, without the TPP arcane1 Jun 2015 #47

What does democracy being alive have to do with electric cars? TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #238

Part hope, part hunch... ucrdem Jun 2015 #239

What does that have to do with a functioning democracy? TheKentuckian Jun 2015 #240

College Grads, Young People More Likely to View Free Trade Agreements As Helping Personal Finances ucrdem Jun 2015 #16

The farther in time we get from the last free trade agreement, the more people forget the harm done Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #27

Free-traders: liberal Dems, Hispanics, young voters. Protectionists: cons, Republicans, older voters ucrdem Jun 2015 #18

Only 5 chapters of the TPP are about trade. The rest is corporate giveaway. djean111 Jun 2015 #19

The poll is the most recent data we've got. ucrdem Jun 2015 #21

Here are the chapter subjects grouped by topic: ucrdem Jun 2015 #24

TPP at-a-glance ucrdem Jun 2015 #20

p.s. heres the latest direct link to the TPP text as of today, April 9, 2016: ucrdem Apr 2016 #245

The Democratic Party has been the low-tariff, high-trade party since the Civil War ended. FDR and pampango Jun 2015 #22

Thanks Pampango! ucrdem Jun 2015 #23

Trying to continue peddling TPP propaganda, its not about trade, its about SELLING OUT AMERICA AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #25

The propaganda works? shocking. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #26

Yes, in Vermont. ucrdem Jun 2015 #29

Why do you hate America? AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #28

Because I'm not an older conservative Republican perhaps? ucrdem Jun 2015 #31

So you don't believe what is being leaked out at all? So your calling everyone else liars? AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #33

There are lots of FUD-peddlers, yes, and I've been calling them out for as long as I've been here. ucrdem Jun 2015 #35

Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are FUD-peddlers now? arcane1 Jun 2015 #45

Per the Pew poll their views on free trade are shared by a shrinking conservative minority. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #51

And Warren and Sanders are now conservatives according to you? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #83

PoliticusUSA, June 7: "Poll Finds 80% Of Republicans Agree With Bernie Sanders ucrdem Jun 2015 #154

You DISAGREE with him about Citizen's United??? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #156

I read it and CU isn't the only shared view. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #157

So disagreeing with Sanders re Citzens United and big money in politics is a bad thing. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #158

Didn't say that. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #159

You said: "Poll Finds 80% Of Republicans Agree With Bernie Sanders On Citizens United" beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #160

I posted the article title and noted the content. The rest is on you. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #161

Nope. You made the claim so it's up to you to back it up. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #163

Actually you made the claim. Not me. ucrdem Jun 2015 #164

You claimed anti-TPP sentiment was "skewed" towards "older conservative Republicans" beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #167

Sorry, you can keep on rolling but you're on your own. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #169

I've been on my own since I asked why you ignored crucial data in the op. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #172

He was so desperate for me to play along. However I decided not to feed him much. Rex Jun 2015 #225

I saw that. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #236

Perfect, you two can be each other's imaginary friends. ucrdem Jun 2015 #237

Experience has taught me not to jump on something without knowing all the facts AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #74

Huh? TPP is Republican trade legislation Joe Turner Jun 2015 #198

You seem to know very little about the TPP. Please educate yourself. Here are the links again: ucrdem Jun 2015 #201

People overwhelmingly support voter ID laws as well. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #30

Do you have a link to a reputable recent national poll showing that? ucrdem Jun 2015 #32

Well that was from talking to people but if you want a blue link. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #34

". . . according to a Fox News poll released this week." ucrdem Jun 2015 #36

here is another we could probably do this all day. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #39

Newsmax? ucrdem Jun 2015 #43

let me know when I get to one that you like Kalidurga Jun 2015 #52

Aug 14, 2012 ucrdem Jun 2015 #54

that's interesting treestar Jun 2015 #37

Not all Democrats understand all the issues. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #40

They don't understand it? Or they don't agree with you? Which is it? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #207

Both--they can't understand it if they don't agree. ucrdem Jun 2015 #210

!!! Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #212

I'm smelling flop sweat from team Jules . . . ucrdem Jun 2015 #234

Especially among Hispanic, liberal, and younger Democrats at that. ucrdem Jun 2015 #42

Well, that proves that the marketing for it has been effective. arcane1 Jun 2015 #41

How many opponents can show that it hasn't? ucrdem Jun 2015 #49

So? This just proves to me sadoldgirl Jun 2015 #46

$ per word? cherokeeprogressive Jun 2015 #48

Know whut I mean? ucrdem Jun 2015 #50

It takes a special kind of idiot to promote free trade for minimum wage. Marr Jun 2015 #73

I know, right? n/t cherokeeprogressive Jun 2015 #137

The sleight of hand here is to test for free trade in general rather than the tpp specifically betterdemsonly Jun 2015 #53

See my post #56 below, the op was very choosy about the data. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #79

Did they only poll Internet corporate shills? HooptieWagon Jun 2015 #55

Yes, polls that challenge your preconceptions must be silly and meaningless. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #58

But of course polls can be worded to achieve a desired result. HooptieWagon Jun 2015 #135

You're using selective excerpts to promote your cause and ignoring others: beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #56

It's a national poll about international trade treaties. ucrdem Jun 2015 #59

Since when is "a national sample of 2,002 adults" a concensus of Americans? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #61

If you have better, more accurate, or more recent data by all means post it. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #63

Unlike you, I wouldn't use such sketchy data to promote my pet cause. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #65

If you have better data, post it, TIA. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #70

Why? I used results from the poll in the op to point out that you put your own spin on it. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #71

As a statistics denier, do you also mistrust science? Hoyt Jun 2015 #75

I didn't deny statistics, I rejected the spin the op put on them. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #77

This should be good news for Hillary Joe Turner Jun 2015 #76

I think so. I think it's good news for Nov. 2016 ucrdem Jun 2015 #84

"it means a certain-single issue challenger is on the losing side" beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #85

The TPP. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #86

So according to you, Bernie Sanders is only about the TPP... beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #87

"You cannot be on the fence on this one. You are either for it or you are against it. No fence- ucrdem Jun 2015 #90

Lol! Just because you can only see one issue doesn't mean we don't see the others. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #94

He's said several times that TPP was the key issue in his campaign. ucrdem Jun 2015 #98

Again: "pertaining or devoted to one public issue ONLY, especially a political one" beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #104

I'm afraid you're grasping at straws. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #105

You don't even know the definitions of the words you're flinging around. You're the poster child for beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #115

Isn't it good news to distingush herself from Sanders and O'Malley Joe Turner Jun 2015 #89

I don't see the hurry but it will come out soon enough. ucrdem Jun 2015 #91

Why wait for the debate? Joe Turner Jun 2015 #97

Maybe because those bashes are going to boomerang? ucrdem Jun 2015 #103

Sure, keep on telling that to yourself Joe Turner Jun 2015 #114

It's simply amazing... yallerdawg Jun 2015 #68

LOL, yes it is amazing. ucrdem Jun 2015 #69

46% of Americans Believe In Creationism IDemo Jun 2015 #78

Most of them are republicans. Most republicans oppose TPP. Does not mean pampango Jun 2015 #134

Just trying to point out IDemo Jun 2015 #136

True. Polls are good for showing what people think. Not whether they are right or wrong. pampango Jun 2015 #141

U.S. Polling Shows NAFTA-style Trade Deals Becoming Even More Unpopular Rex Jun 2015 #174

There's no text in your message. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #180

It's the title of an article. So why should there be any? nt Rex Jun 2015 #182

You didn't post any article. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #185

That's okay I didn't plan to. Rex Jun 2015 #187

This subthread did not go very well LOL. ucrdem Jun 2015 #190

If you say so. Rex Jun 2015 #191

Cool MFrohike Jun 2015 #80

! beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #82

Keep in mind that half the population can't name the 3 branches of government. Vinca Jun 2015 #88

Literacy test, check. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #92

If national polls are going to be reported and considered important, Vinca Jun 2015 #213

How would DU have reacted to FDR's International Trade Organization (and GATT), the IMF and World Bank pampango Jun 2015 #93

+ a bazillian. ucrdem Jun 2015 #95

Opposition to free trade is "libertarian"? Next tell me about the trickle down populists. Romulox Jun 2015 #99

Um, what? MFrohike Jun 2015 #107

Libertarians object to regulation and TPP is 29 volumes of regulation. ucrdem Jun 2015 #109

You're confused MFrohike Jun 2015 #112

Sorry, but regulating trade is what TPP is all about. ucrdem Jun 2015 #113

Hahahahahahaha MFrohike Jun 2015 #119

Let me make this easier for you . . . ucrdem Jun 2015 #124

Yeesh MFrohike Jun 2015 #126

3-sentence summary posted upthread, but you couldn't be bothered to click the link. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #129

It must be invisible MFrohike Jun 2015 #132

LOL, it's in my sig among other places. But ya gotta click it. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #149

Like I said, invisible MFrohike Jun 2015 #170

None so blind as those who will not see I guess. Done here. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #171

Heh MFrohike Jun 2015 #194

Speaking of invisible....check out Tom Tomorrow and the Invisible Hand neverforget Jun 2015 #204

That's a funny cartoon, but the TPP is the opposite of the invisible hand. ucrdem Jun 2015 #209

You're posting the sort of gibberish that only sways the profoundly ignorant. It's embarrassing. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #222

If by hyper-regulation you mean letting the corporations write the rules, then neverforget Jun 2015 #232

Libertarian is synonomous with classical liberal? yallerdawg Jun 2015 #138

Did I say that? MFrohike Jun 2015 #139

Is that a serious question? MFrohike Jun 2015 #101

GATT was "a general lowering of tariffs". The ITO was much more & included international regulations pampango Jun 2015 #118

Interesting point MFrohike Jun 2015 #122

"Pew" Research ...stinks! L0oniX Jun 2015 #96

More like "Pepe Le Pew" Research Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #214

My negative opinion on the TPP was hard won. cheapdate Jun 2015 #100

I wonder what the percentage is of people whose hometowns' unemployment rates skyrocketed gollygee Jun 2015 #110

OP has to rec his own corporate propaganda post. Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #116

I always rec useful information, sue me. Here's some more: ucrdem Jun 2015 #123

Why aren't all of the other Hillary supporters joining you in your TPP crusade? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #125

I imagine they don't like being trolled but you can ask them yourself. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #127

From what I've seen they're no shrinking violets when it comes to defending their opinions. beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #128

From what I've seen the trollery is 24/7. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #130

Anti-TPP opinion is trollery? beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #131

You don't think they get paid per post, do you? yallerdawg Jun 2015 #142

They should be paying Skinner frankly. ucrdem Jun 2015 #150

Yay more corporate propaganda! whatchamacallit Jun 2015 #133

Maybe they think it's simply a trade agreement..don't realize full implications. madfloridian Jun 2015 #144

More likely they have better information. ucrdem Jun 2015 #151

But I didn't just use one source. There were others at the link. madfloridian Jun 2015 #168

Yes you did. ucrdem Jun 2015 #175

Okay here's my take: much ado about sovereignty (ISDS) = FUD of various grades. ucrdem Jun 2015 #208

Newsflash PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #166

U.S. Polling Shows NAFTA-style Trade Deals Becoming Even More Unpopular Rex Jun 2015 #173

There's no message in your message ... ucrdem Jun 2015 #176

Doesn't need to be. People are wising up to shitty deals made in secret. Rex Jun 2015 #177

That's called personal opinion. The OP is about an actual poll. ucrdem Jun 2015 #178

No it is the title of an article. Rex Jun 2015 #179

It's customary to post a link for those who don't have a Vulcan Mind Meld app. nt ucrdem Jun 2015 #183

Oh okay if you say so. Rex Jun 2015 #184

This is your cue for "Looks like this thread isn't going like the OP thought" ucrdem Jun 2015 #188

Huh? Rex Jun 2015 #189

TPP is not about free trade. GeorgeGist Jun 2015 #181

It is the same kind of 'free trade' Reaganites pushed on us for decades. Rex Jun 2015 #186

Yes, fair trade, not "free" trade Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #216

It is really disappointing to see so many progressives on this site parrot 'free trade'. Rex Jun 2015 #221

Working Americans don't think shipping jobs overseas is good. The survey is absurd on it's face. GoneFishin Jun 2015 #192

Some of these rabid pro TPP posters make you wonder where they work Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #206

Absolutely Art_from_Ark Jun 2015 #217

That's for sure. Pretty sure they don't work on an assembly line, or worry about being foreclosed on GoneFishin Jun 2015 #219

That has been proven, some of the loudest against OWS and pro Wall Street Rex Jun 2015 #224

Delusional indeed. Trusting poodles who the 1% would gladly serve up on a barbeque spit. GoneFishin Jun 2015 #230

The people who recommended this should be embarrassed. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #223

There are some that have no shame at all, none. Rex Jun 2015 #226

They are the same ones always pushing the mega-rich fake free trade agenda. Elwood P Dowd Jun 2015 #231

Meanwhile back at the ranch . . . ucrdem Jun 2015 #233

Didn't see this but bookmarked and kicked and rec'd, ucrdem! BlueCaliDem Nov 2015 #241

Thanks BCD! ucrdem Nov 2015 #242

AFL-CIO and a few other trade unions have done a good job demonizing the TPP BlueCaliDem Nov 2015 #243

Yeah the demagoguing was out of control and not helpful.` ucrdem Nov 2015 #244