General Discussion

Robb

(39,665 posts)

4. Bit of a straw man there, Glenny.

Reply to Better Believe It (Original post)

Sat Dec 24, 2011, 03:57 PM

Dec 2011

I've not seen anyone make the argument that the leaks are different because of focus. Perhaps they have, but it's such a silly argument that an elegantly lazy writer like Greenwald can knock it down.

The more substantive argument to make that distinguishes the two leaks is the military status of the (alleged) leaker. The focus on the content of the leaks as being material to whether or not they were illegally leaked is as off-point as saying stealing from a rich person isn't against the law because they have lots of nice things and won't miss the jewelry.

"How much harm/good was done by an illegal act" is a question for sentencing. A perfect world would convict Manning if he did it, and reduce or remove his sentence to reflect the level of damage actually done.

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Glenn Greenwald: The intellectual cowardice of Bradley Manning�s critics [View all] Better Believe It Dec 2011 OP

"...By exposing some of the worst atrocities committed by US forces in Iraq..." duhneece Dec 2011 #1

Iraq refused to renew our status of forces agreement because EFerrari Dec 2011 #25

Court Martial: "Lead the guilty man in for a fair trial and sentencing." Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #2

Pretty much what Manning himself stated sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #3

Bit of a straw man there, Glenny. Robb Dec 2011 #4

His defense has been focused on mitigating the crime and consequences. AtomicKitten Dec 2011 #5

+1 It's not a matter of *if* he leaked classified material, he did. It's a matter of the amount SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #7

So what if he leaked documents stamped "classified" by some government bureaucrat? Better Believe It Dec 2011 #17

What you said is not the point. When he was granted access to classified documents, he signed SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #28

You compare the governments court martial of Manning to you getting a speeding ticket!!! ??? Better Believe It Dec 2011 #30

The speeding analogy was to try to get a point across treestar Dec 2011 #34

The principal is the same regardless of the severity of the crime. You are making an argument from SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #51

Remember Nuremburg? dougolat Dec 2011 #32

It's not an *illegal* order to safeguard classified material per the agreement he signed. (nt) SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #50

Exposing war crimes is a higher moral priority than fulfilling contractual non-disclosure. JackRiddler Dec 2011 #63

It's not *contractual*, it's federal law. Non-disclosure agreements are punitive. IOW SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #66

When you speak of signatures and oaths, it's contractual... JackRiddler Dec 2011 #67

The *smart* legal people would tell you that he had other options within the law, and chose not to SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #68

Who has suggested that Manning is being prosecuted under international law? The point rather is... JackRiddler Dec 2011 #69

Soldiers and civil servants have an obligation under federal law to not disclose classified material SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #72

Resistance to state aggressions may come in ways your mentality finds chaotic or illegal... JackRiddler Dec 2011 #75

And he violated federal law when he disclosed classified material to those not authorized to receive SlimJimmy Dec 2011 #77

Excuse me, can you think of a government that violated all laws and its own Constitution... JackRiddler Jan 2012 #78

I've explained repeatedly that he had other options sans his criminal activity. SlimJimmy Jan 2012 #79

Yes, he had the option of being ignored and ineffective. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #81

He risked his own life by contacting the IG, his Congressman, the Military whistleblower act? SlimJimmy Jan 2012 #82

You seem to misunderstand what I wrote: He risked his own life by doing what he actually did. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #83

Are you ever going to admit that he broke federal law when he had other options? SlimJimmy Jan 2012 #84

I just said, that if the allegations are true... JackRiddler Jan 2012 #86

First, we don't know if using other means would have been ineffective - he never used them. SlimJimmy Jan 2012 #88

Do you see paradox in your strict advocacy of the disclosure law's letter when resisting war crime? JackRiddler Jan 2012 #89

I don't know how to get you to understand that he had *other* options. You seem to think that SlimJimmy Jan 2012 #90

No, your suggestion is laughable as a viable way to resist and expose war crimes. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #92

My suggestion is the law - and what he should have followed. SlimJimmy Jan 2012 #93

Many have made the argument... ljm2002 Dec 2011 #9

Second all of that Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #40

Morality is not defined by a circuitous minutiae laid out in a rule book. Boston_Chemist Dec 2011 #11

+1 Well said. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #18

I do believe: Exactly right. JackRiddler Dec 2011 #76

Attempts at belittling the article's author by calling him "Glenny" is transparent Matariki Dec 2011 #13

Is "Glenny" your buddy now? Boston_Chemist Dec 2011 #26

Why do you think his military status distinguishes his case from Ellsberg's? Vattel Dec 2011 #48

Apparently because an oath to obey trumps all other moral imperatives. JackRiddler Dec 2011 #65

Good post. TwilightGardener Dec 2011 #62

Greenwald. LOL...nt SidDithers Dec 2011 #6

I believe he has a complaint. Scurrilous Dec 2011 #10

Now *there's* an 'intellectually courageous argument. Matariki Dec 2011 #15

Why waste intellect or anything else on Greenwald? great white snark Dec 2011 #16

man, meet straw Matariki Dec 2011 #22

Dont waste your intellect. nm rhett o rick Dec 2011 #23

Prove he endorsed Clinton in the primaries dsc Dec 2011 #45

another dur fascisthunter Dec 2011 #61

I guess when one has so precious little to spare...nt Union Scribe Dec 2011 #70

You never really loved him!! Robb Dec 2011 #27

Here's what I notice.... Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #42

Have you ever made a substantive comment in any discussion? Vattel Dec 2011 #49

And that's a "host" nt Union Scribe Dec 2011 #71

and? Bobbie Jo Dec 2011 #74

No. n/t QC Jan 2012 #85

SidDithers. LOL... fascisthunter Dec 2011 #60

Not to mention the standard military excuse gratuitous Dec 2011 #8

The institutional pressure to obey in the military is enormous. Boston_Chemist Dec 2011 #12

Exactly! The pressure and threats brought down on you for even thinking about doing something hobbit709 Dec 2011 #38

Haha ... How far did you make it in the military? Boston_Chemist Dec 2011 #55

Despite everything, I made it to E-4. hobbit709 Dec 2011 #56

Glenn Greenwald is one of the very best. russspeakeasy Dec 2011 #14

Greenwald is one of the best, he has been completely consistent throughout sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #19

Never compared qthese two Peregrine Dec 2011 #20

It sucks but I reluctantly have to agree if Manning leaked the information he needs to held cstanleytech Dec 2011 #29

"even heros that violate the law should be jailed" How many years do you think Manning should get? Better Believe It Dec 2011 #31

A lot longer for Manning than for Ellsberg. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #91

How long do you think Ellsberg and Manning should rot in prison .... Better Believe It Jan 2012 #94

They should not rot in prison for defending the constitution. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #95

Brad Manning and Wikileaks have been critcized and even threatened EFerrari Dec 2011 #47

K&R for Glenn Greenwald bvar22 Dec 2011 #21

Cheney set the precedence for leaking confidential information. rhett o rick Dec 2011 #24

And for walking free. nt bemildred Dec 2011 #57

Manning is a true American hero. n/t Scuba Dec 2011 #33

Anyone who disagrees with him is an "intellectual coward?" treestar Dec 2011 #35

"No particular wrongs were revealed that are of enough interest to be discussed" bread_and_roses Dec 2011 #37

Greenwald uses hyperbole to attract people to his long polemic essays that lack continuity... Kolesar Dec 2011 #41

Greenwald is a forced ex-pat as the US will not allow gay people to bring our partners Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #44

His reporting stinks for many reasons, ... Kolesar Dec 2011 #52

You are using against him that which is forced on him due to discimination Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #58

Of course, that is not what he says at all. He says the critics of Manning are cowardly Bluenorthwest Dec 2011 #43

actually he says the opposite in his piece dsc Dec 2011 #46

K&R (n/t) bread_and_roses Dec 2011 #36

k&r Starry Messenger Dec 2011 #39

Manning is a hero. His critics are tools and fools. Zhade Dec 2011 #53

K&R Karmadillo Dec 2011 #54

Thanks for Exposing the Truth and the BS, Glenn fascisthunter Dec 2011 #59

Recommended. William769 Dec 2011 #64

K & R !!! WillyT Dec 2011 #73

One difference is obvious to anyone not deliberately ignoring it: Ellsberg knew what he was leaking. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #80

Manning has admitted leaking classified info. He did the crime, he'll do the time. MjolnirTime Jan 2012 #87