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Orrex

(67,084 posts)

121. As a term, small-"l" libertarianism is obsolete.

Wed Jun 10, 2015, 02:44 PM

Jun 2015

Outside of academic circles, it's been completely overtaken by the far-right cesspit now commonly known as Libertarianism. This is a fact, and self-described "small-l libertarians" of whatever stripe would be better served by accepting this fact than by insisting (correctly, but futilely) that they were here first.

If you're having a 20 minute discussion about your political views, would you rather spend 19:30 explaining the difference between libertarianism and Libertarianism, or would you rather discuss the real issues at hand?

If you're content with the former, then by all means continue to demand that people recognize the distinction, but at best you'll demonstrate that you're more concerned about the title than the subject. Since I have literally never known a Right-Libertarian who wasn't a grade-A asshole, I'd say that it's in your interest to distance yourself from that association, even if you lose some of the perceived historical cachet of the lowercase "l."

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Libertarianism is for white men: The ugly truth about the right�s favorite movement [View all] ismnotwasm Jun 2015 OP

"libertarian" (small "l") is a political tendency, not an absolute identity. Romulox Jun 2015 #1

Oh, you ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #7

The article seems to purposefully elide the small "l" and big "L" varieties. Romulox Jun 2015 #8

I think it does generalize ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #9

I am a "civil libertarian" (example: abortion rights, free speech, religion, anti war on drugs) Romulox Jun 2015 #11

Ok. ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #13

Try telling a right-wing libertarian tea party type that Liberals can be libertarian too.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #16

The same is true here at DU. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #18

Liberal Libertarians believe the government shouldn't be in the bedroom.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #38

And liberal and conservative libertarians share a right-wing economic policy. pnwmom Jun 2015 #47

No. We're back off the rails again. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #54

completely off the rails. nt m-lekktor Jun 2015 #163

"So the term "liberal libertarian" is a contradiction in terms." Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #56

Not me. I'm a left libertarian. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #58

These threads are always so much fun. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #175

The tragi/comedy aspect of this is that "liberal economics" traditionally means laissez-faire. Romulox Jun 2015 #61

"and not by collective institutions or organizations" These days add "Wall Street". Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #68

Noam Chomsky considers himself a left libertarian. m-lekktor Jun 2015 #162

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #178

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #192

Great summary. It doesn't sink in with some, though. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #55

Well played. hifiguy Jun 2015 #127

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #176

And if it was JUST about those issues, I'd likely be more receptive to the Libertarians. HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #87

You're confusing small "l" libertarianism with big "L" again. Romulox Jun 2015 #90

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #201

As a term, small-"l" libertarianism is obsolete. Orrex Jun 2015 #121

That's simply not true. It's as relevant as ever--e.g. in the NSA spying debate. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #123

You're confusing the word with the subject Orrex Jun 2015 #128

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #161

DU rec... SidDithers Jun 2015 #2

You're most welcome ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #4

Well hello Sid Hekate Jun 2015 #119

... SidDithers Jun 2015 #136

I am not a libertarian by any means but "ultra right wing?" tymorial Jun 2015 #3

My brother is a Right Wing Libertarian ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #5

Would have loved to hear that conversation hueymahl Jun 2015 #50

He's a pure free market deregulation libertarian ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #64

They might not consider themselves to be. NCTraveler Jun 2015 #15

The libertarians I've encountered tend toward social Darwinism pscot Jun 2015 #21

That's my experience ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #24

That is what many I have met believe. NCTraveler Jun 2015 #27

Yep, and the social Darwinism includes putting women back into 2nd or 3rd Nay Jun 2015 #28

Must one size fit all? The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #63

+1 daleanime Jun 2015 #48

+1. Libertarians "left" or "right" are just Republicans who want to smoke dope and get laid. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #80

So you support the drug war, then? You don't think terminally ill people should be able to choose Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #174

Libertarians can lay no such claim to those issues. Deal with that. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #181

It's a label, and. You're deliberately conflating the big-L Libertarian party with, among other Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #184

If I gave a f**k about the distinctions between Libertarians, I'd name my dog Ayn Rand. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #187

...exactly. Thanks for proving my point. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #191

Glad I could help. Oh, and "you're"? I didn't make the sign. Take it up with Google. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #193

It's emblematic of the high intellectual level of discussion, embodied in this thread. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #196

I'm glad to see you acknowledge the "level" of your contribution. I wasn't gonna say anything. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #203

Verily I am rubber and thou art glue. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #204

Not true LakeVermilion Jun 2015 #205

When you're fine with people dying of hunger or disease... Matrosov Jun 2015 #51

K & R. It also exists in the finance sector. appalachiablue Jun 2015 #6

K&R! stonecutter357 Jun 2015 #10

They just want it like it was back in the old days again tjwash Jun 2015 #12

Exactly ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #14

It can also be the quickest The2ndWheel Jun 2015 #29

Except, of course, most of them are not 'the fittest, the biggest and strongest'. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #31

It's that "rugged individualism" thing..... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #17

But oh so mockable Starry Messenger Jun 2015 #19

Heh! ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #20

K&R n/t OneGrassRoot Jun 2015 #22

It's certainly not for this white man. drm604 Jun 2015 #23

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #25

This message was self-deleted by its author geek tragedy Jun 2015 #26

I just have to post the "auto removed" post above for comedy value Coventina Jun 2015 #30

Oh DU's favorite troll again ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #32

Well, I hope you're busy writing your apology!! Coventina Jun 2015 #33

Must lead a pretty pitiful existence... cyberswede Jun 2015 #39

I'm sorry he's a disturbed wing nut ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #66

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #106

He posted you a love song. cyberswede Jun 2015 #109

Um yes indeed ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #112

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #124

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #35

The fuck? NuclearDem Jun 2015 #36

of course he is a white male noiretextatique Jun 2015 #37

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #133

LOL - Nerve: struck cyberswede Jun 2015 #137

it sucks to be right noiretextatique Jun 2015 #139

That is almost making it too easy for MIRT. hifiguy Jun 2015 #125

Oh come on, why not post their name, as long as you're quoting? Lol; doesn't count as a callout Hekate Jun 2015 #155

Oh FFS treestar Jun 2015 #209

Most self proclaimed Libertarians have no real idea Dustlawyer Jun 2015 #34

K&R. From the article: YoungDemCA Jun 2015 #40

Basically, it is about atomizing the opposition ... Bad Thoughts Jun 2015 #44

Thank you! ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #67

Unless and until more women and minorities join Flatulo Jun 2015 #41

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #49

Very good point ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #81

Yeah, back in the day nursing was a three year (very grueling) program, Flatulo Jun 2015 #108

No you need a bachelors, at least to work in the better hospitals. ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #138

I expect the trend for higher degree requirements to continue. I got my B.S. In 1977, but I Flatulo Jun 2015 #157

Salon is a Right wing media incognito ! Cryptoad Jun 2015 #42

Ayn Rand pulled the wool over the eyes of a lot of irrational nitwits LanternWaste Jun 2015 #43

Oh, how you uit that nail on the head hifiguy Jun 2015 #148

So... I'm confused. Do white men suck because they're libertarians? lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #45

Libertarians suck noamnety Jun 2015 #62

libertarians suck because their entire agenda is to benefit those who enjoy societal privileges geek tragedy Jun 2015 #75

Do we want white men to change the way they vote? n/t lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #82

Yes. The key to that is education and persuasion, not throwing women, immigrants, and geek tragedy Jun 2015 #105

In what way does criticizing libertarianism by associating it with white men... lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #141

the point is that it's an exclusive club that only cares about white men. nt geek tragedy Jun 2015 #145

Then in what way is the revelation that white men identify with it "an ugly truth"? lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #147

Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2015 #89

For the real Ayn Randite hardcore purists hifiguy Jun 2015 #149

.... YoungDemCA Jun 2015 #166

True enough. Is it "libertarianism makes white men bad" or "white men make libertarianism bad"? lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #171

Yet a lot of non-white people would benefit from some libertarian policies. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #46

those are ancillary issues for libertarians. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #74

Exactly ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #97

Survey data, please. Probably true for some, but not all. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #111

Are you a Libertarian? ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #114

I'm not a member of the Libertarian Party, or the Democratic Party for that matter. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #140

I get it ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #159

I think you are a democratic socialist hifiguy Jun 2015 #160

Or maybe an anarcho-socialist. Labels are hard. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #164

The mothership for Libertarian publications--the Cato Institute--is owned by the Koch Brothers. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #117

Yes, I am aware of that. Those same Cato bad boys also do some excellent work on policing issues. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #142

if someone's right on a certain issue, certainly work with them. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #143

It's a masturbatory philosophy for privileged people Prism Jun 2015 #52

Yup. Nerdy "priveleged" white guys. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #53

LOL. What a ridiculous post! nt Romulox Jun 2015 #57

I posted it to piss off our resident daily paul regulars. Sorry you don't like it. I'll try to get Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #72

LOL! ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #73

Right. Dragnet surveillance is OK. Because white dudes! nt Romulox Jun 2015 #76

You seem to be taking this WAAAAAYYY too personally. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #85

You are using people's political ignorance to promote domestic spying. It's personal. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #86

Libertarians suck! Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #91

Domestic spying is horrible, and no scapegoating will make it better. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #94

Libertarians still suck, be they "Civil" or otherwise. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #98

That's an ignorant statement, at best. Authoritarianism has lead to horror in living memory. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #101

Libertarians still suck! I don't know how many ways it can be said. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #103

It doesn't become more convincing by repeating it. It just becomes obvious that's all you got. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #104

Who's trying to "convince"? I think most people here already know Libertarians suck. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #115

Most people are instinctively repulsed by spies and spying. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #116

And most Americans think Edward Snowden sucks! What's your point? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #118

it seems simply repeating "it's wrong" over and over again easily convinces the irrational mind. LanternWaste Jun 2015 #134

So...this is an argument *in favor* of dragnet style surveillance, or...???? nt Romulox Jun 2015 #135

The ACLU sucks? You know, the American Civil Liberties Union. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #144

Libertarians, OF ALL STRIPES, suck! Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #150

You are making a fool of yourself. Got nothing more to say to you. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #151

You mad? Well, don't go away mad Comrade. C'mon. Can't we rebuild? What will I do now? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #154

Don't fret. I'm not going anywhere. Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #156

I knew you couldn't stay mad. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #158

I love you! This was so funny. The tables were turned! nt betsuni Jun 2015 #188

Democrats have lead the way on marijuana legalization and it's shitty of you to pain that Bluenorthwest Jun 2015 #110

Actually, under the Obama adminstration, the Justice Dpt. continued prosecutions of dispensaries and Romulox Jun 2015 #120

LOL ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2015 #130

That's one part of the article that doesn't jibe with my personal experience ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #69

Yes Bobbie Jo Jun 2015 #100

My view is that the caricature of Libertarians being young, middle-class white guys is accurate YoungDemCA Jun 2015 #169

Oops! ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jun 2015 #129

Very "inconvenient" if the heated responses are any indication. Touched a nerve, doncha know? Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #131

lol now he lives in a country where treestar Jun 2015 #210

Especially straight white male privelege. Tarheel_Dem Jun 2015 #213

A former high-school friend (now a quasi-racist libertarian) put it succinctly: "I've got mine." byronius Jun 2015 #59

Libertarians build their ranks from young people disillusioned by ineffective and corrupt govt LittleBlue Jun 2015 #60

Spot on, I agree with you 100%. BlueEye Jun 2015 #71

Yes LittleBlue Jun 2015 #77

Ah, the good old "Big Tent" . . . . HughBeaumont Jun 2015 #84

Fully agree. lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #173

Yup davidn3600 Jun 2015 #198

Super extra better article, Ism libodem Jun 2015 #65

.... ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #70

As I mentioned, smear small "l" libertarians with the Libertarian Party, Romulox Jun 2015 #78

The difference? ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #88

That's not the whole story. Look up "civil libertarianism", and you'll see it's a cornerstone Romulox Jun 2015 #92

I'm just giving you shit ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #93

That's good to hear. You can see many here don't understand (or don't care about) the distinction. Romulox Jun 2015 #95

I doubt there are very many actual Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand "Libertarians" on DU. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #185

If a lot of this thread is teasing the various libertarians ... betsuni Jun 2015 #195

I guess. Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #197

So if someone says they like kitties, you accuse them of hating puppies. betsuni Jun 2015 #199

No, I'm wondering why it's so gosh darn important to conflate things like left-libertarianism Warren DeMontague Jun 2015 #200

^^^THIS^^^ beam me up scottie Jun 2015 #202

What an unfortunate piece of ignorance. Android3.14 Jun 2015 #79

What an interesting point of view. ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #83

"What an unfortunate piece of ignorance" geek tragedy Jun 2015 #107

Except the analogy fails, because Libertarians aren't disenfranchised or oppressed YoungDemCA Jun 2015 #165

What an affirmation Android3.14 Jun 2015 #179

A few things about being a libertarian Turbineguy Jun 2015 #96

Yes indeed ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #99

Modern rightist political libertarianism in a sentence: hifiguy Jun 2015 #146

junk science Vattel Jun 2015 #102

Nice that somebody finally noticed. Ayn Rand was an anomaly in more ways than one.... Hekate Jun 2015 #113

"Atlas Shugged" was very much "I got mine" ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #122

Not even Officer Barbrady from South Park liked Atlas Shrugged: Jamaal510 Jun 2015 #152

I just googled and re-read an argument I had with a Libertarian in 1999 Orrex Jun 2015 #126

Modern, self-identified Libertarians - as in the party - hifiguy Jun 2015 #132

FTMP Libertarians I Know are selfish, inconsiderate, a$$holes. Historic NY Jun 2015 #153

A libertarian I know has at least copped to the racism libertarian policies let run amok Recursion Jun 2015 #167

Outcomes aren't important to those who won't be negatively affected by Libertarian policies YoungDemCA Jun 2015 #170

Unfortunately, a lot of the far-right, anti-government Libertarian talking points... YoungDemCA Jun 2015 #168

You could not have nailed that harder if you'd tried. Seriously. Number23 Jun 2015 #172

Yup ismnotwasm Jun 2015 #177

You got that right. So glad you posted this OP. It's a great read. Number23 Jun 2015 #180

This message was self-deleted by its author MFrohike Jun 2015 #182

Ayn Rand disagreed with you. nt Bonobo Jun 2015 #183

Not even men AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #186

Notice my sig line? DemocraticWing Jun 2015 #189

This article is shit davidn3600 Jun 2015 #190

Libertarians operate on a LOT of tacit privilege daredtowork Jun 2015 #194

for all those who say DonCoquixote Jun 2015 #206

It's an actual Political Party JustAnotherGen Jun 2015 #207

Libertarians think they'd be at the top of the heap treestar Jun 2015 #208

How many libertarians does it take to change a light bulb? betsuni Jun 2015 #211

This thread proves how much stronger ignorance is than knowledge. nt Romulox Jun 2015 #212