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In reply to the discussion: Disney parks price out the middle class [View all]Hissyspit
(45,790 posts)32. Did you read the whole thing?
He met with a Nazi but there was no contemporary evidence that Walt had any strong political views of any kind. Allegations aside, there is no evidence he had any prewar sympathy for Nazism. Companions of that time say he paid little attention to politics. Hindsight allows us to to convict Disney because of Riefenstahl Nazi status. How convincing is a single meeting? This meeting was prior to onset of WWII in Europe, 6 years before the truth of the final solution would be discovered. The visit was not a social call, planning session, or political rally. It was a business and filmography visit. The relatively politic neutral film Olympia was showing in the United States. Olympia was a film about the 1936 Berlin Olympics. Not her most infamous anti-Semitic film. The 1936 film Triumph of the Will. It would be easy for us to assume this was a Nazi friendvisit. A visit to share their mutual hatred of all things Jewish. That is a post-hoc analysis of the meeting. The available evidence gives another, more plausible explanation.
Walt was a true film innovator. Olympia was truly a revolutionary film from a filmmakers perspective. Olympia contained many advanced motion picture techniques, which later became industry standards. Now common and even dated to some extent they were groundbreaking at the time. Riefenstahl used unusual camera angles, smash cuts, extreme close-ups, placing tracking shot rails within the bleachers, and the like. Does a apolitical business man, trying to build his business, spend his very valuable time to have a chat with a minor Nazi figure? Only one visit? Taking time to endorse his silent support for the Nazi Party? No, I do no think so. There is a more plausible explanation that fits the evidence. He met with another filmmaker who was innovative. Probably primarily to develop/steal those techniques for his own pictures. In addition he was probably currying favor for German marketing and distribution of his films. Others have stated that if not for her associations, Riefenstahl may have been recognized as one of the most innovative filmmakers of the time.
In my opinion, I find Riefenstahls quote about Disney apocryphal and inconsequential. She outlived Disney by more than 30 years and these statements came well after his death. Obviously it is easy to make claims without the possibility of denial. Especially when you are trying to foster a sympathetic version of events. Riefenstahl had ample opportunity to make these statements before his death yet she didnt. After World War II Riefenstahl persistently tried to paint herself as a victim of American discrimination. She steadfastly deflected/denied her impact on the death of millions.
There is independent evidence that Walt was completely naive to her influence on the German propaganda. Witnesses attest that Disney had no significant idea of her strong Nazi associations.
In 2006 Disney biographer Neal Gabler also claims in regards to Riefenstahls visit, the invitation was suggested to Disney by Jay Stowitts and that although Walt knew who Riefenstahl was, he didnt know exactly what she represented in terms of politics, as he had no particular political leaning during the 1930s.
Overall I find this claim of ignorance to fit the available facts. Given the time frame (pre-war), plus all German film makers had to be in the Nazi party at the time, making her associations less distinctive to Disney. If you were not in the Nazi party you did not make films in Germany in the late Pre-War era. There were only three people in Germany that could approve foreign films for showing in Germany at that time, Leni Riefenstahl, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, and Adolph Hitler. Riefenstahl was the only German filmmaker who produced films without Nazi party oversight (due to Hitlers direct support). Overall it very plausible that Walt was not as concerned with her political associations.
If you start off with the null hypothesis We do not know if Walt was Antisemitic or not Riefenstahl is not very compelling evidence.
Next bit of evidence involves a Jewish eyewitness. He claimed to have seen Disney and his attorney attending a German American Bund meeting several times. Although a compelling claim, the source of this evidence does pose several red flags. Mr Babbitt was the lead animator at Disney in 1938-1939. In 1941 Babbitt was one of the key organizers of the Cartoonist strike for better working conditions. It was a fairly acrimonious dispute and Walt felt personally wronged that Babbitt was a leader. Disney felt that Babbitt made an excellent living with Disney during the great depression. He was very angry that Babbitt had betrayed him. Worse, Disney was forced to rehire Babbitt at the end of the strike. Witness at the time indicated that they hated each other from that time forward. In the end Babbitt was fired, sued Disney, and won a large settlement in the supreme court. From 1938-1941 he continued to work for Disney.
Another red flag is the time frame. Babbitt made the anti-Semitic accusations decades after all the court cases and acrimony. At the time he had no problem working for a man that he observed attending German Bund meetings. Plus after he was fired no one would have blamed him for walking around and saying some form of Walt Disney is a Nazi and I have proof. Yet he did not do that. He waited until almost 20 years after both Disneys and the Attorneys death to give this quote to the author of a book. There are no other supporting witnesses. So it is Babbitts word against that of a dead man. Even more suspicious was the format for disclosing this information. The quote was never given in a public forum. It originates from a book, Walt Disney: Hollywoods Dark Prince, by Marc Eliot (Birch Lane Press, July 1993). Clearly a book attempting to paint a compelling agenda for publication.
I find the whole scenario problematic at best. Would Babbitt be anywhere near a German Bund meeting? If he did check it out, what are the odds that it was a on a night that included a visit from Walt Disney. If Walt attended many meetings, where are the other witnesses? Even if you accept the quote as fact, it suggestive but not proof of antisemitism. There may be many reasons why Disney and his Attorney were there. We just dont know what really happened.
On a personal note, I found the inclusion of the attorney to be suspicious given the legal battles Babbitt and Disney had fought. Not evidence of innocence. Just very telling in my opinion.
Disneys membership in MPAPAI is by far the most well documented Anti-Semitic indiscretion. There is no question that he was a member. There is no question that MPAPAI had rabidly anti-Semitic members and leanings. Disney tried to distance himself from the organization in the 1950s after McCarthyism and anti-communist Blacklisting of the MPAPAI became public knowledge. Does that make Disney guilty of sharing the associations anti-Semitic views? Guilt by association? Maybe. He was later ashamed of being associated with the groups antisemitic leaders as well as the blacklisting. This evidence is not open to opinion.
Walt was a true film innovator. Olympia was truly a revolutionary film from a filmmakers perspective. Olympia contained many advanced motion picture techniques, which later became industry standards. Now common and even dated to some extent they were groundbreaking at the time. Riefenstahl used unusual camera angles, smash cuts, extreme close-ups, placing tracking shot rails within the bleachers, and the like. Does a apolitical business man, trying to build his business, spend his very valuable time to have a chat with a minor Nazi figure? Only one visit? Taking time to endorse his silent support for the Nazi Party? No, I do no think so. There is a more plausible explanation that fits the evidence. He met with another filmmaker who was innovative. Probably primarily to develop/steal those techniques for his own pictures. In addition he was probably currying favor for German marketing and distribution of his films. Others have stated that if not for her associations, Riefenstahl may have been recognized as one of the most innovative filmmakers of the time.
In my opinion, I find Riefenstahls quote about Disney apocryphal and inconsequential. She outlived Disney by more than 30 years and these statements came well after his death. Obviously it is easy to make claims without the possibility of denial. Especially when you are trying to foster a sympathetic version of events. Riefenstahl had ample opportunity to make these statements before his death yet she didnt. After World War II Riefenstahl persistently tried to paint herself as a victim of American discrimination. She steadfastly deflected/denied her impact on the death of millions.
There is independent evidence that Walt was completely naive to her influence on the German propaganda. Witnesses attest that Disney had no significant idea of her strong Nazi associations.
In 2006 Disney biographer Neal Gabler also claims in regards to Riefenstahls visit, the invitation was suggested to Disney by Jay Stowitts and that although Walt knew who Riefenstahl was, he didnt know exactly what she represented in terms of politics, as he had no particular political leaning during the 1930s.
Overall I find this claim of ignorance to fit the available facts. Given the time frame (pre-war), plus all German film makers had to be in the Nazi party at the time, making her associations less distinctive to Disney. If you were not in the Nazi party you did not make films in Germany in the late Pre-War era. There were only three people in Germany that could approve foreign films for showing in Germany at that time, Leni Riefenstahl, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, and Adolph Hitler. Riefenstahl was the only German filmmaker who produced films without Nazi party oversight (due to Hitlers direct support). Overall it very plausible that Walt was not as concerned with her political associations.
If you start off with the null hypothesis We do not know if Walt was Antisemitic or not Riefenstahl is not very compelling evidence.
Next bit of evidence involves a Jewish eyewitness. He claimed to have seen Disney and his attorney attending a German American Bund meeting several times. Although a compelling claim, the source of this evidence does pose several red flags. Mr Babbitt was the lead animator at Disney in 1938-1939. In 1941 Babbitt was one of the key organizers of the Cartoonist strike for better working conditions. It was a fairly acrimonious dispute and Walt felt personally wronged that Babbitt was a leader. Disney felt that Babbitt made an excellent living with Disney during the great depression. He was very angry that Babbitt had betrayed him. Worse, Disney was forced to rehire Babbitt at the end of the strike. Witness at the time indicated that they hated each other from that time forward. In the end Babbitt was fired, sued Disney, and won a large settlement in the supreme court. From 1938-1941 he continued to work for Disney.
Another red flag is the time frame. Babbitt made the anti-Semitic accusations decades after all the court cases and acrimony. At the time he had no problem working for a man that he observed attending German Bund meetings. Plus after he was fired no one would have blamed him for walking around and saying some form of Walt Disney is a Nazi and I have proof. Yet he did not do that. He waited until almost 20 years after both Disneys and the Attorneys death to give this quote to the author of a book. There are no other supporting witnesses. So it is Babbitts word against that of a dead man. Even more suspicious was the format for disclosing this information. The quote was never given in a public forum. It originates from a book, Walt Disney: Hollywoods Dark Prince, by Marc Eliot (Birch Lane Press, July 1993). Clearly a book attempting to paint a compelling agenda for publication.
I find the whole scenario problematic at best. Would Babbitt be anywhere near a German Bund meeting? If he did check it out, what are the odds that it was a on a night that included a visit from Walt Disney. If Walt attended many meetings, where are the other witnesses? Even if you accept the quote as fact, it suggestive but not proof of antisemitism. There may be many reasons why Disney and his Attorney were there. We just dont know what really happened.
On a personal note, I found the inclusion of the attorney to be suspicious given the legal battles Babbitt and Disney had fought. Not evidence of innocence. Just very telling in my opinion.
Disneys membership in MPAPAI is by far the most well documented Anti-Semitic indiscretion. There is no question that he was a member. There is no question that MPAPAI had rabidly anti-Semitic members and leanings. Disney tried to distance himself from the organization in the 1950s after McCarthyism and anti-communist Blacklisting of the MPAPAI became public knowledge. Does that make Disney guilty of sharing the associations anti-Semitic views? Guilt by association? Maybe. He was later ashamed of being associated with the groups antisemitic leaders as well as the blacklisting. This evidence is not open to opinion.
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As I recall. Can't you buy a season ticket to Universal for about a two day pass?
alphafemale
Jun 2015
#67
Haha! I spend the entirety of Rip Ride Rocket trying to keep my composure :)
ScreamingMeemie
Jun 2015
#96
My daughter got up early one morning and got there when the park opened
Baitball Blogger
Jun 2015
#103
Nobody said it wasn't packed. DL/DW aren't being packed by the Middle-Class, was the argument.
WinkyDink
Jun 2015
#161
So the 19 million visitors to Disney World and 16 million visitors to Disneyland
onenote
Jun 2015
#167
It's not affordable for the average family. They've priced themselves out of that market.
MADem
Jun 2015
#105
We really enjoyed ourselves there--had a lovely, relaxing time wandering around.
MADem
Jun 2015
#142
The "average" family is just trying to pay for rent/mortgage, food, insurance, taxes, car, etc.
Arugula Latte
Jun 2015
#145
There are still families that just can't imagine spending that kind of scratch on a vacation.
MADem
Jun 2015
#141
From some accounts I've read Unkkie Walt was a Nazi sympathizer and antisemite who welcomed
azurnoir
Jun 2015
#22
Yes I did, but defend if you wish but personally the membership in MPAPI is enough
azurnoir
Jun 2015
#33
In the late 70s my little brother & friends tried to get jobs there, but the hiring policy was
appalachiablue
Jun 2015
#97
I can see how that would be the case in the entertainment industry even going back to
appalachiablue
Jun 2015
#143
Well, it;s been open for sixty or so of those years--so you were just a little whippersnapper when
MADem
Jun 2015
#106
Disney World was the key catalyst for the sprawl that devoured Central Florida.
Tommy_Carcetti
Jun 2015
#124
The family across the street went in the early part of May. (mom, dad, 2 children)
BlueJazz
Jun 2015
#56
I read where there are various websites that post places to get high in Disney.
GoneOffShore
Jun 2015
#42
If you do you homework in advance and search around Disney on the internet it can be affordable...
Historic NY
Jun 2015
#36
1) Have you been to Disneyland before and 2) Have you priced downtown hotels in major cities?
Algernon Moncrieff
Jun 2015
#81
We spent over 400 bucks a night at Great Wolf Lodge in Cincinnati and I thought
B Calm
Jun 2015
#149
Yes and the hotel at Disney is just for the hotel -you still have to pay park admission
gollygee
Jun 2015
#151
100 bucks a day for one person/one theme park entrance is too high! At least Great Wolf Lodge
B Calm
Jun 2015
#164
Generally, Universal and Busch Gardens (especially late in the summer) offer locals incredible deals
Algernon Moncrieff
Jun 2015
#83
All I know is that there were plenty of middle class people there when I visited...
brooklynite
Jun 2015
#85
When I was a kid, I whined endlessly wanting to go to Six Flags Over Texas.
Manifestor_of_Light
Jun 2015
#86
Can't wait to take my kids next year for the first time! We are middle class and are going to
cbdo2007
Jun 2015
#125
teen boys aren't exactly the Disney demographic (unless they're Star Wars or Marvel fanboys)
pstokely
Jun 2015
#150
did they have access to a car or did you drop them off at the park for a day?
pstokely
Jun 2015
#186
I don't find Disney to be higher priced than most other vacation destinations.
Ace Rothstein
Jun 2015
#132
Recently went to Universal studios, SHOCKED at the gate price, whatever it was
randys1
Jun 2015
#152
When we went last year (our first and last time with the kids), we did a lot to cut costs.
Butterbean
Jun 2015
#156
“They're going to set their prices at the top 10 percent of family incomes...." says it all.
WinkyDink
Jun 2015
#160