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(16,038 posts)
149. Yes
Sat Jun 20, 2015, 01:30 PM
Jun 2015

The federal form (4472) that is filled requires a signature under penalty of perjury that the person isn't a felon, drug addict, domestic abuser, or been involuntarily committed. A denial usually means that the person is likely to be one of these things.

Licenses and insurance are constitutionally problematic. License are a litmus test for enumerated civil rights/liberties and would be struck down by a unanimous SCOTUS before the ink dried. Insurance is means testing and/or similar to a poll tax for exercise of a civil right/liberty and would be struck down by a unanimous SCOTUS decision before the ink dried.

This illustrates the frustration felt by many on this issue. Insurance and licensing invariably come up (along with about 20 other constitutionally impossible ideas) every time a tragedy occurs. It is usually brought up by the same people who are 'Johnny on the spot' to appeal to the logic of sorrowful, shocked, disgusted, wounded common people who are caught in a moment and who haven't been either personally or professionally involved in the issue of gun control for 20 years (as I have).

As I said and illustrated before there are definitely things which could be done to improve our system. Just that the political activists on both sides don't want to solve the problem, they want to keep it as a fundraising opportunity so their paycheck doesn't go away.

Another example...universal background checks, something constantly pimped by gun control...something supported in principle by a lot of the public. It is and always will be impossible to pass and keep federally mandated universal background checks. As it stands right now in the US there is only 1 very specific kind of firearms purchase which doesn't require a license of some sort or a background check. This is a exchange between two residents of the same state and the seller is not in the business of selling firearms, rather selling a personal gun...a piece of legal to possess and own personal property. The federal government has no jurisdiction..in fact enumerated revocation of the authority to regulate intrastate transactions in "the commerce clause". There will never be a federally mandated universal background check for this very reason.

What does big gun control (lawyers..who all know that ubc's are impossible) do every time in the wake of a tragedy like this? They cry and wail for the impossible federal mandate. They ask for donations to battle in Washington for this oh-so-needed legislation...people angry and grieving send their money in and big gun control lives to raise more money on the next tragedy.

The solution nobody wants to hear...NICS currently is not available for these private sales. A simple change to the conditions of the license for ffl dealers requiring them to do NICS checks for any private sale in a timely fashion for a nominal fee...like $20. Simple. At the same time a bill to eliminate all civil or criminal liability if a gun is transferred using the NICS system and is later used in a crime...perhaps even increasing the possibility of civil or criminal liability for transfers without using the system. Then public awareness campaigns "Use NICS and sleep well tonight!" Etc. Frankly if big gun control were really all that interested in UBC'S they would be setting up kiosks at gun shows doing free private checks...but alas....

I own a couple of family guns and a pistol..I don't carry and usually won't even now that my state has permitless concealed carry. For me, I am a civil libertarian, I believe in a very liberal interpretation of all civil liberties and rights.

You can't reason with the pro gun crowd. [View all] davishenderson265 Jun 2015 OP
They are, for all intents and purposes, "climate deniers." villager Jun 2015 #1
Only because their obsession makes them incapable of rational discourse. Warpy Jun 2015 #2
Sadly agree. It's like debating s flat-earther, Tbagger, or one devoid of compassion for anyone else Hoyt Jun 2015 #3
Oh Hoyt. GGJohn Jun 2015 #8
Hoyt is absolutley correct Skittles Jun 2015 #13
Naw, he's not. GGJohn Jun 2015 #15
gun humpers are sickening Skittles Jun 2015 #18
WRONG!!!! GGJohn Jun 2015 #24
too bad they cannot ALL go Skittles Jun 2015 #28
+1000. GGJohn Jun 2015 #30
A few days ago, you would have been calling him a law-abiding gun owner. Hoyt Jun 2015 #104
And, once again you fail- he was already a convicted felon and in illegal possession of a gun friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #118
Not if I knew what his background was, like being a substance abuser, GGJohn Jun 2015 #140
I would not consider you a responsible gun supporter. nt Logical Jun 2015 #136
Like I care what you think? eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #137
LOL, you responded. You are loving this story so you can say "look at me". nt Logical Jun 2015 #138
LOL, you're doing the same thing, GGJohn Jun 2015 #139
Selfish, greedy, shallow people. notadmblnd Jun 2015 #101
but LaPierre has a dream... madamesilverspurs Jun 2015 #4
^^^^^^^^excellent question^^^^^^^. To gun bumpers , are these or are these not pkdu Jun 2015 #76
Yes, they are HassleCat Jun 2015 #128
The only way we get change is a societal re branding. Juicy_Bellows Jun 2015 #5
shaming cowards is no easy feat Skittles Jun 2015 #22
Nope. Juicy_Bellows Jun 2015 #25
Huh? daleanime Jun 2015 #55
I was trying to convey Juicy_Bellows Jun 2015 #62
Can you translate that word salad for us? eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #59
In a nutshell - Juicy_Bellows Jun 2015 #65
Ok, thanks for clarifying that, GGJohn Jun 2015 #66
You bet - I wasn't intending to be obtuse. nt. Juicy_Bellows Jun 2015 #69
Very good point treestar Jun 2015 #90
I'm in the middle, and I find both sides unreasonable. Nt HooptieWagon Jun 2015 #6
Funny, GGJohn Jun 2015 #7
No, this is funny. truebluegreen Jun 2015 #9
While Jim Jefferies is a funny comedian, GGJohn Jun 2015 #10
He's an Aussie, fully understands most losers will do fine without their sick 'hobby.' Hoyt Jun 2015 #16
LOL. GGJohn Jun 2015 #27
Yeah, it appears all you care about. How much ammo do you keep on hand, again? Hoyt Jun 2015 #61
Appearances can be deceiving. GGJohn Jun 2015 #64
Just in case, what? Hoyt Jun 2015 #67
Just in case the ZOMBIES attack. LOLOLOLOL. GGJohn Jun 2015 #68
Insulting some 100 million people is really going to help One_Life_To_Give Jun 2015 #86
Not insulting them doesn't seem to help either. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #102
Building bridges and finding common ground. One_Life_To_Give Jun 2015 #106
That's a nice trite statement. How about making a real suggestion? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #108
UnBan Jeb Stuart LeMat Cavalry Blackpowder Pistol One_Life_To_Give Jun 2015 #125
So, you like guns. Just own it. nt truebluegreen Jun 2015 #19
Just own it? GGJohn Jun 2015 #31
It's a reason, an entirely selfish one, truebluegreen Jun 2015 #81
My personal firearms have fuck all to do with the greater good of society. GGJohn Jun 2015 #82
What a load of nonsense. A HERETIC I AM Jun 2015 #32
Wrong, the only real argument is the 2A, GGJohn Jun 2015 #33
And, as he points out, it can be changed. A HERETIC I AM Jun 2015 #35
Good luck with changing the 2A, GGJohn Jun 2015 #37
Are you seriously going to suggest that I have to fear the Taliban or Iraqi militants? A HERETIC I AM Jun 2015 #38
When I suggest asking the Taliban or the Iraqi's GGJohn Jun 2015 #39
Bullshit. A HERETIC I AM Jun 2015 #42
No bullshit, GGJohn Jun 2015 #44
How tiresome. Same old shit. Liberal Veteran Jun 2015 #120
Gun control advocates failed to get a new Federal Assault Weapons Ban to pass in ... spin Jun 2015 #57
Please quote me where I "suggest changing or doing away with the Second Amendment" A HERETIC I AM Jun 2015 #60
I may have misinterpreted your post. ... spin Jun 2015 #71
Something we often say when confronted with an opinion that fails to validate our own. LanternWaste Jun 2015 #97
And vis versa. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #142
He sounds to me like he fully understands the issues for firearms. -none Jun 2015 #112
No, he doesn't. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #143
Even the President of the United States appears to have given up. Paladin Jun 2015 #84
WTF? GGJohn Jun 2015 #85
Precisely the response I anticipated. Paladin Jun 2015 #96
Precisely the response I anticipated. GGJohn Jun 2015 #135
He should do it every single day. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #107
Yeah, this topic has been of interest to me for a long time... pipoman Jun 2015 #11
I want to understand something. lostnfound Jun 2015 #80
I really don't want anyone who can't count carrying a gun.... pipoman Jun 2015 #88
But with nearly one gun for every American man woman and child, aren't we there already? lostnfound Jun 2015 #93
who said anything about any of that? pipoman Jun 2015 #98
That sounds like a sensible idea. lostnfound Jun 2015 #148
Yes pipoman Jun 2015 #149
What is your solution? Travis_0004 Jun 2015 #12
How far do you think murders might drop without gun fanciers polluting society with the darn things? Hoyt Jun 2015 #20
How is a handgun ban working in England? Travis_0004 Jun 2015 #26
I'll tell you. When you go from 1 to 2, it's doubled. The only place we have 2 homicides is some Hoyt Jun 2015 #58
"The only place we have 2 homicides..." beevul Jun 2015 #74
Oh gee Hoyt, why don't you ask the citizens of England how well their GGJohn Jun 2015 #34
I don't believe that statistic regarding England. Maedhros Jun 2015 #117
they have excuses for stuff like this Skittles Jun 2015 #14
I don't know anyone who gets upset about penis analogies. NaturalHigh Jun 2015 #141
While the 2nd amendment supporters sadoldgirl Jun 2015 #17
It's nothing but a game to them gratuitous Jun 2015 #21
make a penis analogy joke Skittles Jun 2015 #23
Deliberately trying to upset people makes DU suck. beevul Jun 2015 #75
It's a hateathon. Anything goes. Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #111
Getting sick about here how much people love their guns. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #29
And for them, wheniwasincongress Jun 2015 #36
Correction: You got Guns Dogs to open a 3rd gun forum. We are engaging. Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #114
It's like religion. Facts are useless. nt valerief Jun 2015 #40
Even if you pass legislation there are so many guns in circulation I don't know how you... DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #41
start confiscating them JI7 Jun 2015 #46
All three hundred million plus of them./NT DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #47
yes, it will take time but we need to get out of this backwardness JI7 Jun 2015 #48
I'm all for trying but I am not remotely optimistic... DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #49
Who do you propose do that, specifically? Lizzie Poppet Jun 2015 #50
Start confiscating them how? EL34x4 Jun 2015 #54
You want to start a civil war? GGJohn Jun 2015 #70
Agreed Telcontar Jun 2015 #92
Forget all that. -none Jun 2015 #116
There are *lots* of drones in Afghanistan- and the Taliban is still there friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #119
The Taliban are still there in large part because we want them to be there as part of our excuse to -none Jun 2015 #124
Do You Really Sparhawk60 Jun 2015 #127
Blah, blah blah!!! We could say the same thing about the anti-gun crowd... Ghost in the Machine Jun 2015 #43
Declaring a desire to desire to jail large numbers of non-criminals, a la: friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #52
Exactly the point I was trying to make... Ghost in the Machine Jun 2015 #56
The subject has drawn lots of AntiLaPierres and AntiNugents friendly_iconoclast Jun 2015 #45
Agree. They are nuts. Arugula Latte Jun 2015 #51
I heard someone today say if Sandy Hook had happened while a Republican was president mountain grammy Jun 2015 #53
Not quite, Reagan sold and signed into law one of the must restrictive gun laws ever. aikoaiko Jun 2015 #91
I stand corrected, thank you. mountain grammy Jun 2015 #94
Had that discission with husband today marlakay Jun 2015 #63
I walk the streets of Sydney in the middle of the night...no fear Fairgo Jun 2015 #72
I'm enjoying London at all hours of the night, few police in view lebkuchen Jun 2015 #78
I've walked the streets of Chicago, Dallas, NYC Snow Leopard Jun 2015 #99
What does Joe Biden say? LeftOfWest Jun 2015 #73
Yes, since parents self-describing their children as "troubled" allow them access to guns. lebkuchen Jun 2015 #77
That is correct. It's like arguing with creationists. It's a no logic zone. DanTex Jun 2015 #79
I'll just ditto this. Phentex Jun 2015 #87
It is unwinnable unless you want a bloodbath of confiscation attempts. TampaAnimusVortex Jun 2015 #83
And the dumb thing there too is even if the victims have a gun treestar Jun 2015 #89
And they have the 2nd Amendment on their side. Algernon Moncrieff Jun 2015 #95
No, you can't. Sheldon Cooper Jun 2015 #100
You cannot force a gun on someone who doesn't want one HockeyMom Jun 2015 #103
It's almost as bad trying to reason with the anti gun crowd. ileus Jun 2015 #105
boy you called that right. mooseprime Jun 2015 #109
^^^This^^^ -none Jun 2015 #122
So then maybe they will all be dead when the shooting STOPS. N/T Stellar Jun 2015 #110
You're not supposed to reason with idiots you go around them and get whatever done you can. craigmatic Jun 2015 #113
"I can't reason you out of a position you didn't reason yourself into." reflection Jun 2015 #115
Of course not!! They think you are trying to take retread Jun 2015 #121
Theres a whole thread, 300 + posts, of examples of you guys trying to "reason"... beevul Jun 2015 #123
I don't know if the OP realized what his allies are like... Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #132
Depends HassleCat Jun 2015 #126
They're fundies, only in the Church of Gunz. hifiguy Jun 2015 #129
Is this Reasoning? "Gun humpers, selfish, greedy, shallow, cowards, Eleanors38 Jun 2015 #130
Guns are seen as a cure for male sexual dysfunction. Orsino Jun 2015 #131
Mostly by anti-gunners. N/T beevul Jun 2015 #133
that would be consistent with the numbers which show more men JI7 Jun 2015 #134
Its no different than trying to have a rational conversation with the snake handling fundamentalists etherealtruth Jun 2015 #144
That's rich coming from you. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #145
Why, thank you! etherealtruth Jun 2015 #146
You're very welcome. eom. GGJohn Jun 2015 #147
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