General Discussion

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)

133. I agree, tax the rich first. As to VAT, it's just not a simple as self-styled "progressives" want

Sun Jun 21, 2015, 08:57 PM

Jun 2015

it to be. I don't pretend to understand all the ramifications, but there are people who do (within the limits of predicting economic results).

Here's an example of just how complicated it is:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/key-elements/international/competition.cfm

In fact, our economic system and tax system is extremely complicated. We'll probably be better off long-term to just blow it all up and start over -- staking out our own little patch of land, growing our own food, decontaminating our own water, etc. But the decades until things stabilize will be hell, not unlike the Great Depression, although it will seem worse.

Maybe we'd be better off if the government ran everything. Of course, then you have to have people who will follow, and hope the rulers at any given time are sensible and compassionate. Not much chance of any of that.

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NYT 2009 American workers are overpaid. Gap must close. Happening now. Thanks, Obama. [View all] madfloridian Jun 2015 OP

Oh, a new meme is that, somehow, the entire agreement has been completely rewritten or something djean111 Jun 2015 #1

Never mind. misunderstood. madfloridian Jun 2015 #2

I think you misunderstood DJ13 Jun 2015 #4

Updated. Thanks. madfloridian Jun 2015 #5

They want us to make lemonade... Kalidurga Jun 2015 #3

They're giving us lemons DJ13 Jun 2015 #6

Yeah, but then we have to give the lemon back. Kalidurga Jun 2015 #11

Glad Bernie has been against this all along. madfloridian Jun 2015 #7

Me too. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #23

Don't be silly ... Quasimodem Jun 2015 #22

Ouch so true Kalidurga Jun 2015 #71

It's a self defeating attitude to assume that the rest of the world can live like Americans. Jesus Malverde Jun 2015 #80

Yes, we are but I remember when we were number 1 in a whole lot of areas Kalidurga Jun 2015 #83

Is it a liberal attitude to assume that the rest of the world has no right to "live like Americans"? pampango Jun 2015 #86

. Jesus Malverde Jun 2015 #90

Very well off people are writing this tripe. Torches, pitchforks, and the National Raz . . . Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #8

thanks, mad. nt antigop Jun 2015 #9

Los Angeles Times this week: Gap's management and product line suck badly. Front page. Hekate Jun 2015 #10

Um historylovr Jun 2015 #43

Ha! Well you can certainly see how I might make that mistake in context of current events Hekate Jun 2015 #44

I figured. historylovr Jun 2015 #46

Reading past the headline would have helped you immensely. cui bono Jun 2015 #72

In some ways that's true Jesus Malverde Jun 2015 #82

Correction: They're not raising the standard of the other country, they're pocketing the difference. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #12

Very good point. madfloridian Jun 2015 #13

And entirely accurate. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #24

Yes. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #31

The subtext is that manufacturing in China is becoming expensive... Jesus Malverde Jun 2015 #84

There are corporations that offer slave labor to corporations. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #92

They are absolutely raising the living standard of the other countries Recursion Jun 2015 #94

A very few are getting rich. The rest are treated like prisoners.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #100

And people line up from the villages for that Recursion Jun 2015 #101

It's the same business model we're using with Mexico. Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #103

Mexico is maybe slightly comparable Recursion Jun 2015 #107

Ever watch "Shark Tank"? Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #109

That's exactly right and that's the most heinous part of it all. mountain grammy Jun 2015 #134

They claim the product will cost a fortune if they have to pay US wages.... Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2015 #135

Get conservatives to join us by telling them that Globalists have effectively committed treason by.. AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #14

Well it's true. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #20

Very true. That is precisely what has happened. And the Republicans and Obama are to blame. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #32

The theory purportedly was supposed to play out like this: closeupready Jun 2015 #137

The Military and our National Leadrship considered China a "threat" long before Free Trade. bvar22 Jun 2015 #136

BTW, this is how the Globalists see the world economy in 2050 AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #15

Interesting graphic...kind of scary. madfloridian Jun 2015 #16

"So little of the pie?" we're 1/3rd the size on India Recursion Jun 2015 #93

So, what is your solution. Are we supposed to impede China, Russia, Brazil, India, etc., Hoyt Jun 2015 #19

What a skewed way of looking at it. madfloridian Jun 2015 #21

I think our lifestyle will be on the decline for awhile without having to do anything. Hoyt Jun 2015 #26

A reason it's on the decline....that's why I posted this. madfloridian Jun 2015 #28

No to a reductioni n the American living standard. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #30

Don't think we are headed for slums like Brazil and Peru. But for poor folks here Hoyt Jun 2015 #34

You haven't been to Detroit lately, have you? davekriss Jun 2015 #40

Fuck the rich and the whores who enable them. GeorgeGist Jun 2015 #76

We need to hit the rich FIRST, not "hit them up later"... cascadiance Jun 2015 #131

I agree, tax the rich first. As to VAT, it's just not a simple as self-styled "progressives" want Hoyt Jun 2015 #133

On the contrary Egnever Jun 2015 #139

Good points. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #140

Easy to accept a decline in lifestyle when you are not living hand to mouth me b zola Jun 2015 #63

You don't read very well do you. My life doesn't "rock," but it's better than poor in many places. Hoyt Jun 2015 #64

Rather than attacking my reading capabilities, try listening to those living hand to mouth me b zola Jun 2015 #66

I said those in the "lower" 20% or so need progress. The other 80% needs to get prepared. Hoyt Jun 2015 #116

Are you an American? JDPriestly Jun 2015 #36

American dream, is just that. I'm sorry, There's a reason we are referred to as "greedy Americans." Hoyt Jun 2015 #37

Are you really an American? JDPriestly Jun 2015 #39

I live in a big world, that we don't own, rule, or have a right to hoard wealth. Hoyt Jun 2015 #41

We will not improve the lot of the bottom 20% here with these trade deals. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #42

Yeah, my yahoo neighbor tells me America First junk too. We should not whine about other countries Hoyt Jun 2015 #48

No one is whining about other countries doing better. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #53

Our country is not doing worse than most of the world. Hoyt Jun 2015 #54

For how long? The trade deals have slowed economic improvement and progress for the bottom JDPriestly Jun 2015 #60

Fuck yeah, the phrase: "The TPP is a corporate coup" should be heavily repeated AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #58

That's just a ridiculous view of things. madfloridian Jun 2015 #45

Again, there's a reason the world thinks we are greedy. Hoyt Jun 2015 #49

More and more I am becoming a protectionist in many ways. madfloridian Jun 2015 #50

Hey, I've said all along that some of the opposition to TPP is American greed. Hoyt Jun 2015 #51

Oh, geez, I'm done. madfloridian Jun 2015 #52

Your assumption that the trade deals are good for the world's poor is false. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #61

Something has been good for the world's poor since the bottom 2/3 have the best income gains pampango Jun 2015 #77

Here's how you, "Hoyt", can "help the world's poor": brentspeak Jun 2015 #67

Attacking the character of the poster rather than responding to content of the post. pampango Jun 2015 #79

So who's attacking, Mr. US Chamber of Offshoring Talking Points? brentspeak Jun 2015 #87

I post what FDR actually did. If you believe FDR was "parroting Business Roundtable talking points", pampango Jun 2015 #89

Listen to Deportee some time. Guthrie cared about the world's poor, in a time when most folks knew Hoyt Jun 2015 #119

Creative way to rationalize your irrelevant premise. LanternWaste Jun 2015 #138

Happened to me twice, but software and robots have taken my job 4 times Recursion Jun 2015 #97

In other words, you don't care. That's clear. What do you do that is so easily shipped overseas? Hoyt Jun 2015 #118

Damn straight, the progressive movement fought for and won for us the standards of living that we have enjoyed AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #55

People in other countries could do the same. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #62

Exactly. The progressive movement fought to lower tariffs and raise income taxes. FDR knew that pampango Jun 2015 #78

You're getting more ridiculous by the post brentspeak Jun 2015 #105

Yup. Many white Americans could afford that for about 40 years Recursion Jun 2015 #95

You are saying that the middle class was an anomaly. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #108

The middle class wasn't just "denied" to African Americans, it was built on them Recursion Jun 2015 #110

Sorry, but the white experience was the majority experience. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #123

The US and UK are still way over represented there Recursion Jun 2015 #98

Dog and cat eating China is going to surpass the US ...no doubt. L0oniX Jun 2015 #104

this is why the gop supports it restorefreedom Jun 2015 #17

Exactly. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #25

K&R! THE TRUTH! I'm with you 100%! Enthusiast Jun 2015 #18

K&R. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #27

Kick, Rec and saving for tomorrow. BlancheSplanchnik Jun 2015 #29

It needs to be said passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #33

This I agree with: JDPriestly Jun 2015 #38

I know a woman whose family income is around 100K passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #70

+1 historylovr Jun 2015 #47

Nobody's going to run what's effectively a charity to employ Americans at the wages we are used to Recursion Jun 2015 #99

I agree with you, but passiveporcupine Jun 2015 #121

She was on Walmart's Board of Directors for six years. closeupready Jun 2015 #35

Your sentences below really spoke to me, and I agree wholeheartedly with them: CaliforniaPeggy Jun 2015 #56

Coming from you that means a lot. madfloridian Jun 2015 #57

Aw, thank you so much, my dear madfloridian... CaliforniaPeggy Jun 2015 #59

You should never feel that way. madfloridian Jun 2015 #65

What madfloridian said. Scuba Jun 2015 #74

I want you to know I hope you are feeling better about things tonight. madfloridian Jun 2015 #130

I am feeling better, and thank you so much, my dear madfloridian...You're a sweetheart. CaliforniaPeggy Jun 2015 #132

NYT, November 2008: Let Detroit Go Banrkrupt ucrdem Jun 2015 #68

How condescending. "Please try to do better." madfloridian Jun 2015 #69

Why was it so important to get compensation for American rhett o rick Jun 2015 #126

Yeah, it's all the fault of too much trade - which we do much less of than countries with high wages pampango Jun 2015 #73

/\_/\_This right here_/\_/\ Scuba Jun 2015 #75

I will bet they are'nt calling to lower prices DiverDave Jun 2015 #81

only republicans have stated they want to do away with the Federal minimum wage AND Sunlei Jun 2015 #85

It's all part of the plan. cloudbase Jun 2015 #88

Kick FloriTexan Jun 2015 #91

No I think the aim is to bring the other countries up to us treestar Jun 2015 #96

"other countries must stay poor so we can have it all" ?? madfloridian Jun 2015 #120

Either way treestar Jun 2015 #141

Article recommends up to 20% cut for American workers for "global balance." madfloridian Jun 2015 #122

If people in the third world come up 20% treestar Jun 2015 #142

Oh, come on. madfloridian Jun 2015 #143

The market will work treestar Jun 2015 #144

It looks to me like the 1% are so unwilling to let go of a single penny that they djean111 Jun 2015 #102

Leaving the great unwashed to scrabble ... Alkene Jun 2015 #112

Time to dust off the guillotine? gregcrawford Jun 2015 #106

I've posted ohheckyeah Jun 2015 #111

Don't feel bad at all. Happens a lot. madfloridian Jun 2015 #113

Yeah - ohheckyeah Jun 2015 #115

Dang it. A whole nation, built by murdering the indigenous people and stealing their homes and jtuck004 Jun 2015 #114

Why should "karma" come back on the lower classes? It was the wealthy that reaped the rhett o rick Jun 2015 #128

Nearly everyone in this country has more because it was denied to others. jtuck004 Jun 2015 #129

Not just a trade agreement. About much more than just trade. madfloridian Jun 2015 #117

Well, this is the purpose of primaries... PatrickforO Jun 2015 #124

I agree. That and Iraq War 2 very big issues for me. madfloridian Jun 2015 #127

The big lie is that they don't intend to bring the rest of the world workers up rhett o rick Jun 2015 #125

Exactly! BuelahWitch Jun 2015 #145

Sorry, but this is looting the middle class. Oneironaut Jun 2015 #146