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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Tue May 15, 2012, 01:12 PM May 2012

Fast moving Events in Greece: Far left ascendant [View all]

Last edited Tue May 15, 2012, 02:29 PM - Edit history (2)

Yesterday:

Greek leftists reject proposal for technocrat government
(Reuters) - ATHENS | Mon May 14, 2012 11:04pm BST

Greece's president will ask politicians on Tuesday to stand aside and let a government of technocrats steer the nation away from bankruptcy, but leftists have already rejected the proposal and look set to force a new election they reckon they can win.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/14/uk-greece-idUKBRE8440DC20120514

Today:

Greece calls new elections after talks collapse
(Reuters) - ATHENS | Tue May 15, 2012 6:39pm BST

Greece abandoned a nine-day hunt for a government on Tuesday and called a new election that may hand victory to leftists who might cut the nation's financial lifeline, pushing it closer to bankruptcy and out of the euro zone.

After six rounds of fruitless wrangling, party leaders emerged from a final session at the presidential mansion to gloomily declare that deep divisions over a 130-billion-euro foreign bailout package had killed any hope of a coalition deal.

We shouldn't have reached this point," said Socialist leader Evangelos Venizelos, who personally negotiated the rescue package from the European Union and IMF which the hard left says has imposed too harsh an austerity regime. "For God's sake, let's move towards something better and not something worse."

Reviled for imposing deep wage and spending cuts but vital to keep the country running, the bailout worth $166 billion prompted Greeks to elect the most fragmented parliament in decades on May 6, giving no party or bloc a clear mandate.

...

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/15/uk-greece-idUKBRE8440DC20120515


Always odd, from an American perspective, to see the Socialists thrown out for being too far right. But since socialist isn't such a dirty word in Europe the socialists are fairly centrist. Note how the author casually distinguishes them from the hard left. (If Alan West wants to know the number of communists in the Greek parliament he can just look it up, rather than guessing.)

Here's what an outgoing Socialist minister had to say: “If Greece cannot meet its obligations and serve its debt the pain will be great,” (Outgoing Socialist Greek Minister for Citizen Protection ) Michalis Chrysohoidis was quoted as telling a local radio station. “What will prevail are armed gangs with Kalashnikovs and which one has the greatest number of Kalashnikovs will count … we will end up in civil war.”

The possible benefit of a Syriza (far-left coalition) win in the elections would be having the strongest possible negotiating position. Essentially a "mad bomber" strategy, in game theory terms. But that is only a benefit if Syriza then compromises from that position of strength. If Greece does get bounced from the euro it will be seriously bad for the Greek people in the short and medium terms.

[font color=green]Personal Plea: As with all major economic stories, it is natural to root for the banks and the rich to be laid low. And, as in all economic stories, it is impossible to really hurt the banks or the rich. One can merely wound their pride... make them a little less rich. JPMorgan just tossed away two billion dollars. Did anyone there miss any meals as a result? Meanwhile the people at the margins of society pay the highest cost of economic disruption. Always. That's the nature of being marginal. And consider this... all euro denominated debt in greece, including personal debt, consumer debt, mortgages, etc. will at least double in cost. Human costs may sometimes be justified to achieve an end, but they must never be taken lightly.[/font color]


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Good luck, Greece. cali May 2012 #1
+1. Unprecedented financial waters here - the fall-out isn't going to just stay over there tho riderinthestorm May 2012 #2
Greece is just the tip, wait till Spain and Italy blow. The question's whether the banking scum will stockholmer May 2012 #4
I don't think gov's can or will have same reaction abelenkpe May 2012 #28
Syriza, for the win stockholmer May 2012 #3
You don't understand how much pain and chaos this would cause Greece now. randome May 2012 #5
Pain as opposed to what? The destruction the bankster oligarchy spreads is LITERALLY killing people. stockholmer May 2012 #11
Galactic size +1 nt stillwaiting May 2012 #12
count me in on that galactic size! +1 happerbolic May 2012 #23
'Tyrant'? randome May 2012 #14
Greece and its people did not cause the global financial meltdown.. girl gone mad May 2012 #76
Not all ills are equal cthulu2016 May 2012 #17
The glaring hole in your argument.. girl gone mad May 2012 #97
well... cthulu2016 May 2012 #106
The effects you described have already happened. girl gone mad May 2012 #107
Godzilla sized +1!!! Zalatix May 2012 #58
LOL! Rex May 2012 #18
Capitalist fear mongering propaganda tama May 2012 #40
Perhaps you can point to an example... randome May 2012 #42
There's no world economy tama May 2012 #45
Argentina. girl gone mad May 2012 #77
Argentina 2001. Last I checked, Argentina is doing just fine and coalition_unwilling May 2012 #82
One fundamental difference hack89 May 2012 #115
Iceland. Zalatix May 2012 #108
They embraced the international community to fix their problems hack89 May 2012 #114
Greece is in a state of pain and chaos right now. girl gone mad May 2012 #75
Those are fear tactics. The same tactics that failed in Iceland. sabrina 1 May 2012 #100
Go, Syriza, go! hifiguy May 2012 #7
that doesn't make any sense. What are they going to do? Print money? cali May 2012 #8
Again, look to Iceland, they seem to be doing fine all things considered. Lionessa May 2012 #16
Why do people always point to Iceland? former9thward May 2012 #50
Aside from the fact that Greece uses the Euro, the situations are comparable. girl gone mad May 2012 #79
Iceland borrowed billions from the IMF to fix their problem. They also are joining the EU hack89 May 2012 #62
Yes, they should. girl gone mad May 2012 #81
They implemented austerity measures to get IMF money. hack89 May 2012 #85
Iceland exited this IMF program girl gone mad May 2012 #89
Because it worked and it was no longer needed. hack89 May 2012 #91
Yes, they were able to exit and see a rebound in growth.. girl gone mad May 2012 #94
Do you read what you post? hack89 May 2012 #101
I have no idea what point you're trying to make. girl gone mad May 2012 #104
I am arguing that there is no comparison between the two situations hack89 May 2012 #111
BTW, Iceland actually increased its social spending.. girl gone mad May 2012 #105
No they can't hack89 May 2012 #113
One more thing.. girl gone mad May 2012 #109
it's how lincoln won the civil war. it turns out just fine most of the time. HiPointDem May 2012 #19
Eat well, sing and dance and live together :) tama May 2012 #46
Money also pays for research. randome May 2012 #47
Money controls academic research tama May 2012 #49
America was able to print its way out of recession to a large extent... girl gone mad May 2012 #78
We also inflated our way out after World War II. Zalatix May 2012 #110
Wow. Nt abelenkpe May 2012 #29
hell yes dana_b May 2012 #33
informative cthulu2016 May 2012 #37
Good program tama May 2012 #41
Now that's a platform i can get behind! Odin2005 May 2012 #56
Only in a perfect world free of willing slaves. nt Comrade_McKenzie May 2012 #66
And Tsipras' party is expected to do well, as I projected it would, after he forced the other party Lionessa May 2012 #6
What happens after they reject EU conditions? cali May 2012 #9
They will be out of the euro and will have to cthulu2016 May 2012 #10
As I posted on another forum on the Greek situation Berlin Expat May 2012 #20
This isn't what Nomura stated. girl gone mad May 2012 #86
And according to this Berlin Expat May 2012 #21
interesting cthulu2016 May 2012 #34
Germans will come into Greece for their vacations and spend money like it was water. JDPriestly May 2012 #35
While Greece is indeed a most beautiful country, I Berlin Expat May 2012 #36
So if the Greek people endorse Syriza's platform........ socialist_n_TN May 2012 #53
Essentially, yes; I believe that Berlin Expat May 2012 #70
Not so quickly! tama May 2012 #43
That...is interesting. randome May 2012 #44
The EU and the banks have already written off 75% of Greece's debt hack89 May 2012 #63
Not ECB and IMF and member states tama May 2012 #68
The ECB cannot go bankrupt. girl gone mad May 2012 #83
Who knows for sure, but Iceland seems to recovering from bankruptcy better Lionessa May 2012 #13
That's true. People keep saying that they aren't analogous cali May 2012 #15
The differences, IIRC from a recent thread... randome May 2012 #22
Exactly; the case of Iceland Berlin Expat May 2012 #24
Who actually owns Greek debt? German, French and American banks (and coalition_unwilling May 2012 #84
There's also a question of scale metalbot May 2012 #25
And a sovereign currency cthulu2016 May 2012 #27
Why can't Greece default and stay in the euro? abelenkpe May 2012 #26
Theoretically, yes -- but the entire eurozone would take a bath KamaAina May 2012 #30
"Moral hazard" tralala May 2012 #31
Yes, but in the same way the repugs passing a huge new stimulus plan is possible cthulu2016 May 2012 #32
Not while staying in the rules of the European Union muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #38
What good would that do? They'd still be broke and no one would lend them any more money badtoworse May 2012 #39
They would not be in debt slavery tama May 2012 #48
Is Athenian democracy really the best example here? cthulu2016 May 2012 #51
Not the best tama May 2012 #52
What would they pay salaries and pensions with? Drachmas? badtoworse May 2012 #54
You can believe in Mammon all you need tama May 2012 #55
I agree people don't stop living,... badtoworse May 2012 #64
I'm thinking of non-things like tama May 2012 #71
A quote I saw in a WSJ cartoon many years ago... badtoworse May 2012 #72
LOL tralala May 2012 #73
But severe poverty brings misery, death, violence and hopelessness. hack89 May 2012 #80
misery, death, violence and hopelessness are the human condition BOG PERSON May 2012 #88
Sounds like what the IMF and Euro banks had planned for ........ socialist_n_TN May 2012 #102
You are right that there will be misery regardless of what they do hack89 May 2012 #112
If Greece collects taxes in drachma, then.. girl gone mad May 2012 #87
How much will gasoline cost in drachmas? badtoworse May 2012 #92
But they will be free! cthulu2016 May 2012 #93
In the short run their currency will depreciate severely. girl gone mad May 2012 #95
Maybe we'll plan a vacation in Greece if they're not fighting a civil war badtoworse May 2012 #98
GO, SYRIZA, GO!!! Odin2005 May 2012 #57
Latest poll from Attica: Syriza 32% tama May 2012 #59
They need 40%+ of the seats, plus the 50 extra seats, to get a simple majority muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #61
I was thinking tama May 2012 #67
50% of Greek police voting fascists tama May 2012 #60
The armed forces of a country are ALWAYS the potential...... socialist_n_TN May 2012 #65
You're right about the military being the counterbalance. Something to keep in mind. n/t Raksha May 2012 #96
Yeah. If I were agitating in Greece, I'd be headed .......... socialist_n_TN May 2012 #103
Greece will be fine. Reports of its pending death are closeupready May 2012 #69
Under almost any scenario, the Greek people would be better off than the Iranians are FarCenter May 2012 #74
I agree, they will be alright.. girl gone mad May 2012 #90
In response to your "Personal Plea".. girl gone mad May 2012 #99
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